Is Israel evolving into a fascist nation?

[StringJunky]

Quote

Israel's parliament has passed into law a controversial bill that defines the country as an exclusively Jewish state.

The "Jewish nation state" bill downgrades Arabic as an official language and says advancing Jewish settlement is a national interest.

It also states that the "whole and united" Jerusalem is its capital.

<snip>....However some clauses were dropped following objections by Israel's president and attorney-general, including a clause that would have enshrined in law the creation of Jewish-only communities.  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44881554

 

[geordief]

Not sure about a fascist state as it has been under physical attack and has a duty to its citizens to protect them.

But a quasi state yes. An exceptional carve out.

The treatment of Jews (and others) by Germany during and before the war has led up to this unsustainable position where no perfect position can be hoped for.

That is not to say that within this intolerable situation elements within Israel cannot make the situation even worse (They are now)

This latest development does betray the Ideals on which Israel was presumably founded.

Edit I missed "evolving." That is  a genuine fear.

Edited July 19, 2018 by geordief

[Ten oz]

51 minutes ago, geordief said:

Not sure about a fascist state as it has been under physical attack and has a duty to its citizens to protect them.

But a quasi state yes. An exceptional carve out.

The treatment of Jews (and others) by Germany during and before the war has led up to this unsustainable position where no perfect position can be hoped for.

That is not to say that within this intolerable situation elements within Israel cannot make the situation even worse (They are now)

This latest development does betray the Ideals on which Israel was presumably founded.

Edit I missed "evolving." That is  a genuine fear.

First, what historically has been done to Jewish people is unconscionable. They were mistreated in Russia prior to the first world war and the holocaust is among the ugly things inhuman history. Today antisemitism continues to exist and in still a real problem to varying degrees all over the world. That said Jewish peoples are not alone in being a historically disenfranchised peoples. Africans have experiences many of the same abuses and continue to be discriminated against around the world. Many Native peoples in the Americas and throughout Asia have been decimated to level where their culture is now unsustainable  as anything other than reflection of what they once were.

Past wrongs are should influence perspective but should be rubber stamp justifications for any and all behavior. In the the U.S. despite over a hundred years of slavery and an couple hundred years of segregation African Americans are still held to the same mutual (we the people) laws. In African The French, England, Dutch, U.S. and etc still exercise influence within various countries which they have economic interests.  So when the historical treatment of Jewish people is used as a justification for modern political choices within Israel I cringe a bit.  I cannot think of another group which has had their most coveted lands returned to them along with the full support and protection of the militarily and economically most power nations in the world. 

Jerusalem is the epicenter of Arabahamic Religion (3.7 billion people world wide). No group would be able to control the land free of conflict. The challenges Israel, the nation, faces today have nothing to do with Germany. Palestinian people are not German. Using Germany as an justification for treatment of Palestinians is an error in my opinion. Palestinian people have a historical and cultural relationship to the region and it is wrong to deny that. It is wrong to just ignore that they are there as if there is somewhere else for they belong. Israel is so preoccupied with codifying their own control that the needs of the Palestinians are being totally ignored and it is wrong. 

[YaDinghus]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Quote

Israel's parliament has passed into law a controversial bill that defines the country as an exclusively Jewish state.

The "Jewish nation state" bill downgrades Arabic as an official language and says advancing Jewish settlement is a national interest.

It also states that the "whole and united" Jerusalem is its capital.

<snip>....However some clauses were dropped following objections by Israel's president and attorney-general, including a clause that would have enshrined in law the creation of Jewish-only communities.  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44881554

 

People who crave security as much as the Isreali are particularly prone to fascidm, as they will readily restrict even their own civil liberties for the sake of security. We have seen this happen in the USA after 9-11. We are seeing this happen in Europe after the senseless and brutal attacks in Paris and Berlin, and other locations where Trucks were steered into crowds of people killing dozens. Israel has been under siege since it was forned from the British colony of Palestinia. 

I am in no way claiming that I like what is happening. But this has little to do with the specific conflict between Israel and the arabic countries surrounding Israel, and its part off the population that is arabic, but with human nature. And I don't see how Israel has a stronger responsibility to resist fascism, based on their history, than any other people in the world do (which is higher than the heavens, metaphorically)

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, YaDinghus said:

....And I don't see how Israel has a stronger responsibility to resist fascism, based on their history, than any other people in the world do (which is higher than the heavens, metaphorically)

I think they do because their experience in the second world war, given that it happened over a relatively short time, intensifies and focuses the evils of fascist tendencies and the US, GB etc bent over backwards to carve out a piece of Palestine for them. They should be setting an example that is the opposite of what they went thorough in the 30's and war years.

I may have misinterpreted what you wrote but I'm open to being corrected.

[YaDinghus]

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I think they do because their experience in the second world war, given that it happened over a relatively short time, intensifies and focuses the evils of fascist tendencies and the US, GB etc bent over backwards to carve out a piece of Palestine for them. They should be setting an example that is the opposite of what they went thorough in the 30's and war years.

I may have misinterpreted what you wrote but I'm open to being corrected.

What I mean in particular is that their history is somewhat of a red herring in this debate. Every people has atrocities in their past, commited by and/or agaisnt them, and should be fighting for a better, fairer, freer world.

Edited July 19, 2018 by YaDinghus

[MigL]

Just to be 'cheeky'...

That's Christians who believe in "turn the other cheek', Stringy.
Jews believe " an eye for an eye'.

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, YaDinghus said:

What I mean in particular is that their history is somewhat of a red herring in this debate.

I don't think they see it that way, it seems they actively use that excuse to abuse others.

I don't hate Jews but I do hate what Isreal is doing to its minorities in the name of more/money. 

[StringJunky]

 

12 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

What I mean in particular is that their history is somewhat of a red herring in this debate. Every people has atrocities in their past, and should be fighting for a better, fairer, freer world.

There is an insular protectionism about them that I think will always render them a target until they change. The Japanese are having this discussion now and wondering whether they need to change or they will die off as a nation. 

[YaDinghus]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Just to be 'cheeky'...

That's Christians who believe in "turn the other cheek', Stringy.
Jews believe " an eye for an eye'.

That's a horrible play on words. I like it.

Anyway it was Lois Fisher, a descendant of Ukrainian jews, who said in his Book about Ghandi:

 

Quote

An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind

https://www.google.de/amp/s/quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/amp/

21 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I don't think they see it that way, it seems they actively use that excuse to abuse others

And that's all it is, an excuse, and not a particularly good one at that. I'm certain you yourself have been hurt some time in the past. Do you use that as an excuse to go around and hurt other people? Would you accept this kind of excuse from someone else, or would you tell them that their shitty behavior is their own responsibility?

[dimreepr]

13 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

And that's all it is, an excuse

I agree, but sometimes it's difficult to distinguish an excuse from a reason, especially when it's used to deflect criticism.

[YaDinghus]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I agree, but sometimes it's difficult to distinguish an excuse from a reason, especially when it's used to deflect criticism.

true dat...

[dimreepr]

20 minutes ago, YaDinghus said:

Quote

An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind

https://www.google.de/amp/s/quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/27/eye-for-eye-blind/amp/

I don't agree with this but that debate is for a different thread.

[CharonY]

Assuming that there are no provisions to strengthen autocratic elements, bill alone appears to be more a move toward something like an ethnostate, which could be considered a subelement of facism. Of course if it is just an opening move, it may well go down that road.

[StringJunky]

5 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Assuming that there are no provisions to strengthen autocratic elements, bill alone appears to be more a move toward something like an ethnostate, which could be considered a subelement of facism. Of course if it is just an opening move, it may well go down that road.

I read a kind of public letter or lecture by Netanyahu from 2015 that had strong elements then  of what has been decided now. Quite honestly, I think that Islamists and Jews have the same attitude and problems. They are both quite alien to Western sensibilities and vice versa and yet we treat Israel as philosophically the same. We treat Israel as though they are on our side but I don't think they are any more so than the Islamic nations. What I'm saying, is that Israel should be treated with the same degree of wariness. We are helping the Israelis, via supplying arms etc, against a nation that is no worse and no better than they are. As has been said, they can't play the victim card forever. They are going to have to be held accountable for their actions by the same rules as everybody else is held.

[MigL]

Keeping in mind that I'm making an attempt to drive discussion ( civil please )...

Why do we question how long the Israeli Jews are going to play the victim card when their distress happened 70 odd years ago, and have since been involved in several wars with aggressive neighbors, and a constant state of siege by said neighbors.

Meanwhile, slavery was abolished in the US over 150 yrs ago, yet Black Americans still play the victim card.
Everything is to do with racism. Correct the 'path of the ship by steering in the opposite direction' as Phi once put it ( affirmative action ? )
Black lives matter, but if you mention the two orders of magnitude greater murder rate of Black on Black violence, then you're a racist.

If we as a society agree that these steps are necessary to correct past wrongs, make the field more level, and prevent future wrongs, then, why doesn't this apply to the Jews in Israel ?

[zapatos]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why do we question how long the Israeli Jews are going to play the victim card when their distress happened 70 odd years ago, and have since been involved in several wars with aggressive neighbors, and a constant state of siege by said neighbors.
Meanwhile, slavery was abolished in the US over 150 yrs ago, yet Black Americans still play the victim card.

Sounds suspiciously like "whataboutism". Is the black victim card the gold standard for duration that all others are allowed reach before we ask them to do better?

Quote

Everything is to do with racism. Correct the 'path of the ship by steering in the opposite direction' as Phi once put it ( affirmative action ? )
Black lives matter, but if you mention the two orders of magnitude greater murder rate of Black on Black violence, then you're a racist.

There is that "whataboutism" again. Mentioning the black on black murder rate is not racist in and of itself, but using that statistic to justify lesser misdeeds shows a racist tendency.

Quote

If we as a society agree that these steps are necessary to correct past wrongs, make the field more level, and prevent future wrongs, then, why doesn't this apply to the Jews in Israel ?

Can you expand on how Israel's current actions are similar to affirmative action?

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Keeping in mind that I'm making an attempt to drive discussion ( civil please )...

Why do we question how long the Israeli Jews are going to play the victim card when their distress happened 70 odd years ago, and have since been involved in several wars with aggressive neighbors, and a constant state of siege by said neighbors.

Meanwhile, slavery was abolished in the US over 150 yrs ago, yet Black Americans still play the victim card.
Everything is to do with racism. Correct the 'path of the ship by steering in the opposite direction' as Phi once put it ( affirmative action ? )
Black lives matter, but if you mention the two orders of magnitude greater murder rate of Black on Black violence, then you're a racist.

If we as a society agree that these steps are necessary to correct past wrongs, make the field more level, and prevent future wrongs, then, why doesn't this apply to the Jews in Israel ?

Slavery was/is not the whole story though.  What about all the acts of violent discrimination not covered by that act? Black people were still getting lynched in the 60's. Black people, as a collective, are reaching out and want to be equal in every aspect of society and playing by the same rules. This is in stark contrast to Jewish society which is still insular.... and some Islamic societies.

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Keeping in mind that I'm making an attempt to drive discussion ( civil please )...

Why do we question how long the Israeli Jews are going to play the victim card when their distress happened 70 odd years ago, and have since been involved in several wars with aggressive neighbors, and a constant state of siege by said neighbors.

Meanwhile, slavery was abolished in the US over 150 yrs ago, yet Black Americans still play the victim card.
Everything is to do with racism. Correct the 'path of the ship by steering in the opposite direction' as Phi once put it ( affirmative action ? )
Black lives matter, but if you mention the two orders of magnitude greater murder rate of Black on Black violence, then you're a racist.

If we as a society agree that these steps are necessary to correct past wrongs, make the field more level, and prevent future wrongs, then, why doesn't this apply to the Jews in Israel ?

"Victim card" is a dismissive name for it. Antisemitism is a real thing. Also various extremist groups are actively targeting Israeli citizens and would love nothing more than wipe Israeli from the map. Israeli does have legitimate security concerns. Likewise Slavery ended 150 years ago but segregation (legal oppression) continued for about another hundred years. Also no amount of violence you might perceive a group to be enacting on itself is a justification for further mistreatment. 

The challenge is good governance moving forward with an eye on the unique concerns. The holocaust doesn't play a role in Israeli's struggles with Hamas and the Arab world at large. Rather religion and the competing (fabricated on all sides) histories of all 3 Abrahamic religions is the problem. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have their own perspective on the rightful heirs of the territory based nonsense written thousands of years ago. 

[koti]

I’m surprised that no one mentioned the crucial component and the main reason behind the middle east conflict for the last century. Since this is in pollitics I’m not going to go further with this, the people who know me on this forum know exactly what Im talking about and the ones who don’t should be able to easilly deduct.

@MigL, Affirmative action is a well coined term in South Africa for example, it is part of their legislation after 1994:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Economic_Empowerment

 

[mistermack]

I have no objection to the Jews being given a homeland. What I object to, it them being given Palestine, as if it was empty and belonged to nobody. To me, it's not the Jews who are of interest, but the Palestinians. 

Would people in the United States have stood for a Jewish homeland being created, in Colorado or Texas? Not a chance. Would the Brits have allowed it, in Kent? Ludicrous. But that's exactly what they did to the Palestinians. And then they started killing them, when they unsurprisingly protested. And they've never stopped since. 

Just a few weeks ago, the Israeli Army were using Palestinian protesters for target practice, because they were protesting and throwing stones. Adolf Hitler would have approved. During Nazi occupation, if one German got attacked, they would wipe out a whole village. Sometimes even a town. The Israelis use the same tactic. Throw stones, and they shoot a dozen dead. Disgusting.

And in politics, they have teams of attackers, who round on anyone who says a wrong word about Israel. They are immediately labelled as anti semitic in a very organised and pre-planned way. 

I can't think of a single good thing about the State of Israel, or it's supporters. 

[MigL]

Not necessarily affirmative action, but steering the ship in the opposite direction, Zapatos.
If we can give opportunities to people who have previously been denied those opportunities, in education, employment etc., and we see that as a good thing, why is it then a bad thing when a group of people, that was nearly exterminated because of their culture, decides to protect that culture, by 'over-correcting'.

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, mistermack said:

 They are immediately labelled as anti semitic in a very organised and pre-planned way. 

General question: When  does a comment become anti-semitic and when is it just reasoned criticism? How do you exercise criticism of actions that are ideologically-based without being seen as anti-whatever group?

Edited July 19, 2018 by StringJunky

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Would people in the United States have stood for a Jewish homeland being created, in Colorado or Texas? Not a chance. Would the Brits have allowed it, in Kent? Ludicrous. But that's exactly what they did to the Palestinians. And then they started killing them, when they unsurprisingly protested. And they've never stopped since. 

Shoooot, parts of CO and TX use to belong to Mexico and today huge portions of the U.S. are upset people with Mexican heritage are in the country at all. 

7 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I can't think of a single good thing about the State of Israel, or it's supporters.

This is an overstatement. Israeli is for from the worst of worst. They have equal rights issues from a democratic standpoint which can be resolved peaceful IMO. 

[zapatos]

11 minutes ago, MigL said:

Not necessarily affirmative action, but steering the ship in the opposite direction, Zapatos.
If we can give opportunities to people who have previously been denied those opportunities, in education, employment etc., and we see that as a good thing, why is it then a bad thing when a group of people, that was nearly exterminated because of their culture, decides to protect that culture, by 'over-correcting'.

Do you feel that Jews in Israel are at a disadvantage or that their culture is at risk in their own country due to past wrongs? If not, then what are they trying to accomplish by over-correcting?

Edited July 19, 2018 by zapatos