Is Israel evolving into a fascist nation?

[StringJunky]

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

Not necessarily affirmative action, but steering the ship in the opposite direction, Zapatos.
If we can give opportunities to people who have previously been denied those opportunities, in education, employment etc., and we see that as a good thing, why is it then a bad thing when a group of people, that was nearly exterminated because of their culture, decides to protect that culture, by 'over-correcting'.

Because they then become like 'the enemy', which springs right back to my OP.

Edited July 19, 2018 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, zapatos said:

Do you feel that Jews in Israel are at a disadvantage in their own country due to past wrongs? If not, then what are they trying to accomplish by over-correcting?

More stuff...

[mistermack]

10 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

General question: When  does a comment become anti-semitic and when is it just reasoned criticism? How do you exercise criticism of actions that are ideologically-based without being seen as anti-whatever group?

Easy. As far as I'm concerned, if you criticise people just for being Jews, that's anti-semitism. If you criticise the State of Israel, and it's existence and actions, that isn't. 

[MigL]

Well, they were nearly exterminated when a minority in Germany ( and Europe ).
Maybe they don't want to be a minority again, in their own country ( Jewish birth rates are lower than Arab ).

I'll give another example ( the previous may have been a little controversial )...

Here in Canada the 'laine pure' Quebecois ( pure wool ) have long argued for partial separation, where they keep all the advantages of confederation, but are free to preserve their own 'separate' culture from the rest of Canada; Even to the extent of limiting immigration into the province.
While the rest of Canada is bilingual, it is actually illegal in Quebec to have ANY English signage, even if accompanied by the French equivalent.
Now, I realize this is Canada, and we're pretty 'laissez faire', but nobody considers that a 'fascist' agenda.

Why does Israel get labelled 'fascist' when they try to preserve their ( Jewish ) culture ?

[StringJunky]

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

Why does Israel get labelled 'fascist' when they try to preserve their ( Jewish ) culture ?

What was wrong with Hitler wanting to preserve German culture from Jewish culture? Israel is killing the Palestinians that try to enter Israel.  They have their own way of ethnic cleansing. Israel wants to be 'pure', just like the Nazis did. If it walks like a duck....

[MigL]

A quick Google search reveals that there were 1,6 million people who identify as Palestinian or Arab, living in Israel, as citizens, in 2913.
That is over 20% of the population.

I hadn't heard that 1.6 million people had been killed in Israel ( sorry Stringy, just being my usual sarcastic self,  ).

If, on the other hand, if you mean people running border crossings, I don't think a region that has regular suicide bombings and missile attacks can be too careful in the protection of its Israeli ( and Palestinian ) citizens.

[StringJunky]

19 minutes ago, MigL said:

A quick Google search reveals that there were 1,6 million people who identify as Palestinian or Arab, living in Israel, as citizens, in 2913.
That is over 20% of the population.

I hadn't heard that 1.6 million people had been killed in Israel ( sorry Stringy, just being my usual sarcastic self,  ).

If, on the other hand, if you mean people running border crossings, I don't think a region that has regular suicide bombings and missile attacks can be too careful in the protection of its Israeli ( and Palestinian ) citizens.

But 1.6m indigenous people have had their language demoted. This could be a part of a process of systematic  attrition of their standing in Israel. This is what happened in Germany in the 30's... The 'final solution' didn't happen overnight.

Be as sarcastic as you like.

Edited July 19, 2018 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Meanwhile, slavery was abolished in the US over 150 yrs ago, yet Black Americans still play the victim card.
Everything is to do with racism. Correct the 'path of the ship by steering in the opposite direction' as Phi once put it ( affirmative action ? )
Black lives matter, but if you mention the two orders of magnitude greater murder rate of Black on Black violence, then you're a racist.

Ooof, the differences are huge and are politically or not just not comparable. But if one wanted to do such a comparison: 

As others have mentioned, policies (laws as well as practices such as redlining) persisted well into the 80s and other, perhaps unintended policies disproportionately affected (and still affect) black communities disproportionately. As a consequence generational wealth was not increasing resulting of disproportionate amount of black folks staying in poverty. The economic trajectories in Jewish communities was quite different, of course. And, again, as Zapatos mentioned, in online fora crime in black communities are not discussed in good faith. I doubt that anyone denies that black communities are more affected by crime than white communities. But it is also quite clear that poverty is a big driving factor. The talking point that slavery ended and thus they should have ample time to be successful glaringly overlooks the history of black communities post-slavery and reveals an underlying agenda. It is based on the assumption that black folks are inherently different/inferior and as such the lack of success is solely down to their deficiencies. It does not really matter if they mention genetics or culture, all they mean is something inherent, relatively unchangeable that is somehow also connected to dark skin colour. It is really just a skin-deep veneer over a bigoted world view.

If you look at poverty levels among black communities, you'll see that only since the mid-90s a more sustained drop in black poverty was observed. And part of it is due to acknowledging the special issues black communities and the role racism (intentional or not) played in it.

In contrast, post-holocaust there was a rather immediate recognition of how horrible the deeds were and Germany negotiated reparations. Sure the anti-semites did not suddenly vanished, but being openly anti-Jewish (Jewish, mind you, not Israel) was much more frowned upon than it used to be. As we all know that did not happen in the US for the black folks. So no, there are not many points were a comparison could be justified.

 

Now touching on the situation in Quebec. The situation is quite different (though the francophone situations does not seem to be trivial either) as it is not merely promoting Hebrew to the national language but also quite clearly says that Israel is a Jewish nation. I.e. it is a specific exclusions of Arabic citizens. And that is quite a worrisome aspect as I would imagine that under Canadian law someone obtaining Canadian citizenship would be considered a full member of society, regardless of their heritage. 

[MigL]

No, it didn't happen overnight.
It took 3 to 4 years.

Meanwhile the Palestinian/Arab citizenry of Israel has been slowly increasing for over 60 yrs.
Estimates are that the Jewish and Palestinian/Arab populations will be equal by the second half of this century.

That doesn't sound like a solution, or very final.
( hey, you said I could be sarcastic )

@CharonY

No comparison is 100% equivalent.
And yet over 20% of the Israeli citizenship identifies as Palestinian/Arab.
Have any attempts been made to make these people leave ?
Or exterminate them ?

If not, I don't see a policy of cultural preservation as 'fascist'.
( or comparable to Hitler's final solution )

[Ten oz]

18 minutes ago, MigL said:

Have any attempts been made to make these people leave ?

Israel has taken ownership of more land and denied those already their full citizenship rights. If I came to Canada and took ownership of your property and built my own mansion there would you consider it fair provided I didn't evict you? 

[CharonY]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

And yet over 20% of the Israeli citizenship identifies as Palestinian/Arab.
Have any attempts been made to make these people leave ?
Or exterminate them ?

So you only consider policies  that are clearly aimed against a certain set of your fellow citizens problematic when it comes to outright extermination? That is just silly. 

[StringJunky]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

No, it didn't happen overnight.
It took 3 to 4 years.

Meanwhile the Palestinian/Arab citizenry of Israel has been slowly increasing for over 60 yrs.
Estimates are that the Jewish and Palestinian/Arab populations will be equal by the second half of this century.

That doesn't sound like a solution, or very final.
( hey, you said I could be sarcastic )

@CharonY

No comparison is 100% equivalent.
And yet over 20% of the Israeli citizenship identifies as Palestinian/Arab.
Have any attempts been made to make these people leave ?
Or exterminate them ?

If not, I don't see a policy of cultural preservation as 'fascist'.
( or comparable to Hitler's final solution )

I carefully put 'evolving' in my title, meaning is it heading that way? 

[mistermack]

5 hours ago, Ten oz said:

"Victim card" is a dismissive name for it. Antisemitism is a real thing. Also various extremist groups are actively targeting Israeli citizens and would love nothing more than wipe Israeli from the map. Israeli does have legitimate security concerns

This is like justifying the burglar who raided your home fitting a burglar alarm. It can never be legitimate, to protect your possession of stolen property. It's hypocritical, that Jewish organisations should be so keen to campaign for the return of paintings looted by the Nazis, and yet so supportive of an entire country being kept by the people who stole it. 

[MigL]

That is a valid point Ten oz.
I don't consider the settlements lawful either. Israel should not expand beyond its mandated lands.
It has no right to force others out; but the ones who have been in Israel since/after 1948 don't seem to be in any hurry to leave.
As a matter of fact they are steadily increasing in numbers.
Maybe Israel offers them an opportunity they can't get in neighboring Arab countries ?

Yes CharonY, when those policies involve forced relocation or extermination, they are rightfully called 'fascist'.
When they are more in line with what Quebec is doing to its English minority, then that term is a bit much.
Or are you gonna call French-Canadians fascists also ?

Sorry Stringy, I failed to notice the 'slippery slope' part of your argument. You are right.
But Israel has a long way to go before it descends to the level of its neighbors, who want to destroy it.

[CharonY]

19 hours ago, MigL said:

No comparison is 100% equivalent.

There is a difference between "not quite the same" and "not applicable".

16 hours ago, MigL said:

When they are more in line with what Quebec is doing to its English minority, then that term is a bit much.
Or are you gonna call French-Canadians fascists also ?

This is a strawman. First, I noted that a second element (establishment of autocratic structures) are missing from the bill. Second, my criticism was that you draw the line to facism at the level of extermination. Let me be clearer. If laws were enacted that would limit rights of certain citizen, say, the anglophone population, then I would call it a cause for concern and depending on which rights, it could well be underway to facism (say limiting voting rights or political participation).  To state that genocide is the litmus test of autcratic regimes is, as I have noted, plain silly. At that point we would be already way beyond that.

 

16 hours ago, MigL said:

It has no right to force others out; but the ones who have been in Israel since/after 1948 don't seem to be in any hurry to leave.
As a matter of fact they are steadily increasing in numbers.

And that seems to be what certain groups are worried about and why there is a call for Jewish ethnostate. For now it is toothless. But what is the endgame? Assuming the Arab population increases further, what action would need to be taken to ensure that Israel remains Jewish? The possible consequences are what folks are worried about and what folks are worried about. And I sure hope you see that there is a difference between learning French and becoming Jewish?

[Ten oz]

17 hours ago, MigL said:

but the ones who have been in Israel since/after 1948 don't seem to be in any hurry to leave.
As a matter of fact they are steadily increasing in numbers.

This could have been said of blacks during segregation. I find arguments that the oppressed seem to be taking it well so it must not be that bad to be shallow. What Israeli has been doing is un-democratic. All permanent residents deserve equal voice and representation. 

17 hours ago, mistermack said:

This is like justifying the burglar who raided your home fitting a burglar alarm. It can never be legitimate, to protect your possession of stolen property. It's hypocritical, that Jewish organisations should be so keen to campaign for the return of paintings looted by the Nazis, and yet so supportive of an entire country being kept by the people who stole it. 

Stating that antisemitism exists and that Irealis are targeted for violence is not equal to vote of support for all of the govt's actions. 

 

[MigL]

I studied French all through Junior and high school, CharonY.
I don't speak much of it ( no reason to ), but I understand it extremely well.

I draw the line at becoming Jewish.
I'm not getting circumcised; every little bit helps.

I'm sorry but I really don't think this bill is that big a deal.
Certainly not the beginning of an Israeli 4th Reich.
( people should worry more about the expanding Israeli settlements )

I would sooner be a Palestinian living in Israel, than a Jew living in any neighboring country

[Ten oz]

43 minutes ago, MigL said:

would sooner be a Palestinian living in Israel, than a Jew living in any neighboring country

Would you sooner be a Jew living in Palistine per 1948 or a Palistinian living in Israel today? 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

( people should worry more about the expanding Israeli settlements )

 

People are capable of worrying about two things at once.

[MigL]

Definitely a Palestinian living in Israel today, Ten oz.
As an Israeli citizen they have the same rights as Jewish citizens. Some are even in political office.

Sure Zap, but most people prioritize, and worry about things that do the most harm.

[zapatos]

25 minutes ago, MigL said:

Sure Zap, but most people prioritize, and worry about things that do the most harm.

Are you saying people are not prioritizing here? What makes you think that?

I see people discussing expanding Israeli settlements all the time. 

[Sensei]

Jews made a lot to the world people to hate them ("we're chosen nation!"... hard to imagine the worser, the more arrogant claim..) and made very little to be loved by people....

Current direction ("nationalistic") is driving them straight to the hell..

 

If somebody cannot live in peace with neighborhood, instead building walls, attacking them by tanks, and armored soldiers, disallowing people live in peace, harmony and cooperation etc. etc. ... It's sign of weakness if you have to use brutal force, in revenge for meaningless hit by minority radicals.. After such hit, minority grows because of assault..

 

D.T politics is to increase tensions in this region of world (and the whole world!).. so moved embassy to Jerusalem.. wise people of the world should ignore it completely and use old embassy, like in the past, as the main..

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Sensei

[Ten oz]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Definitely a Palestinian living in Israel today, Ten oz.
As an Israeli citizen they have the same rights as Jewish citizens. Some are even in political office.

Again, this could be said of the U.S. during Segregation. Blacks held various political offices throughout Segregation. 

Your own govt (Canada) provides 300 million in what it calls "humanitarian" aid to Palestinians and has condemned Israeli treatment of Palestinians. Your own govt considers Palestinians living all the terroritories settled since 1967 (millions of people) to be living under Israeli occupation without adequate human rights.

Quote

 

Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.

http://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/mena-moan/israeli-palistinian_policy-politique_israelo-palestinien.aspx?lang=eng

 

 

Both Jewish and Palestinians use to live in the region together Peacefully when it was established as Palestine and even before then when it was part of the Ottoman Empire. How you can say a Palestinian in Israel has it better than a Jew is pre 1948 Palestine is hard understand. It seems as though you either are unaware of the history or simply do not care much for Palestinians as a whole. 

Quote

 

By the time of the Ottoman conquests, Anatolia had been home to centuries old communities of Hellenistic and later Byzantine Jews. The Ottoman Empire became a safe haven for Iberian Jews fleeing persecution, and in its heyday, the city of Thessaloniki had a Jewish majority.

The First and Second Aliyah brought an increased Jewish presence to Ottoman Palestine. The Ottoman successor state of modern Turkey continues to be home to a small Jewish population today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

 

 

[MigL]

This will be my last post on the matter Ten oz.
You are descending into your usual style
"you're either unaware or don't care much for Palestinians"
And I'm really not that concerned about this Israeli cultural bill's passing.

As for your other points, the whole world was up in arms and clamoring that Israel should grant the Palestinians areas of self rule.
If they didn't, Israel would be an oppressor state and vilified by the world.
So they did.
And The Palestinians went and made a right mess of it, all the while continuously attacking other areas of Israel.
Tet when Israel responds to these attacks by what is now essentially a foreign state, They are again vilified.
They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
No other country in the world would live under such conditions, yet Sensei expects Israel to just take it without retaliation.

Meanwhile the Palestinians who chose to remain Israeli citizens and stay, have a much better life/standard of living than ones who chose to leave, or Arabs living in Jordan , Lebanon, Syria, etc.
Some of those Palestinians holding Israeli citizenship, and political office, probably even voted on this bill.
 

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

This will be my last post on the matter Ten oz.
You are descending into your usual style
"you're either unaware or don't care much for Palestinians"
And I'm really not that concerned about this Israeli cultural bill's passing.

As for your other points, the whole world was up in arms and clamoring that Israel should grant the Palestinians areas of self rule.
If they didn't, Israel would be an oppressor state and vilified by the world.
So they did.
And The Palestinians went and made a right mess of it, all the while continuously attacking other areas of Israel.
Tet when Israel responds to these attacks by what is now essentially a foreign state, They are again vilified.
They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
No other country in the world would live under such conditions, yet Sensei expects Israel to just take it without retaliation.

Meanwhile the Palestinians who chose to remain Israeli citizens and stay, have a much better life/standard of living than ones who chose to leave, or Arabs living in Jordan , Lebanon, Syria, etc.
Some of those Palestinians holding Israeli citizenship, and political office, probably even voted on this bill.

4

Let's imagine the Palestinians didn't resort to violence to express their anger but instead resorted to non-violent/peaceful protest, do you imagine their plight to be substantially different? 

Edited July 21, 2018 by dimreepr