Is Israel evolving into a fascist nation?

[MigL]

I don't know. Maybe they should try it.
I don't know whether it would improve their living conditions.
If Israel does not need to worry about attacks and arms influx into the Palestinian areas, maybe aid could get through. more easily

At the very least Israel would loosen their control over what is supposed to be a self-ruled area.

 

Edit:  Way to go Dimreepr, you just made a liar out of me by making me post again.

Edited July 21, 2018 by MigL

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

I don't know. Maybe they should try it.
I don't know whether it would improve their living conditions.
If Israel does not need to worry about attacks and arms influx into the Palestinian areas, maybe aid could get through. more easily

At the very least Israel would loosen their control over what is supposed to be a self-ruled area.

I'd like to think so (in an ideal world) but Isreal is looking for excuses, not reconciliation.

[StringJunky]

29 minutes ago, MigL said:

I don't know. Maybe they should try it.
I don't know whether it would improve their living conditions.
If Israel does not need to worry about attacks and arms influx into the Palestinian areas, maybe aid could get through. more easily

At the very least Israel would loosen their control over what is supposed to be a self-ruled area.

 

Edit:  Way to go Dimreepr, you just made a liar out of me by making me post again.

I  think the thing is to look at the situation and its history and not take sides; they are both as bad as each other. i just look at who is holding up progress and imo it's Israel. As a similar aside, I think it's Iran that's being shit on currently, even though I don't support their way life at all.  I'm all behind China as well in the same way; they are playing the capitalist game and winning but Trump doesn't like it. I'm judging the current behaviours of the players and not the ideologies.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

This will be my last post on the matter Ten oz.
You are descending into your usual style
"you're either unaware or don't care much for Palestinians"
And I'm really not that concerned about this Israeli cultural bill's passing.

Is there a meaningful difference between not caring vs not being concerned?

 

[MigL]

When speaking about two different issues, it makes a world of difference.
I really shouldn't need to explain that to you.

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Is there a meaningful difference between not caring vs not being concerned?

 

"Not being concerned" usually means that one thinks there  isn't a problem, whereas when "one doesn't care" that usually means there is a problem but one is indifferent.

"My daughter has measles but I'm not concerned (for a bad prognosis)"

"My mother is ill but I don't care (if she dies)"

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by StringJunky

[Ten oz]

17 hours ago, MigL said:

When speaking about two different issues, it makes a world of difference.
I really shouldn't need to explain that to you.

You are attempting to say that Palestinians have it good in Israel, better than they would have it anywhere else, and thus there is no problem. That is the same sort of arguments which is used to defend mistreatment of any number of people. Here in the U.S. conservatives use that same notion to defend the migrant family separations. They carry on about how nice the facilities they are are being separated in are compared to where the families originated from. It is totally besides the point. It doesn't speak to the lack of equal treatment under the law and isn't democratic. One doesn't get to choose for another whether or not they're comfortable, happy, or etc. I read it as indifference to their plight.

17 hours ago, StringJunky said:

"Not being concerned" usually means that one thinks there  isn't a problem, whereas when "one doesn't care" that usually means there is a problem but one is indifferent.

In political policy discussions when one doesn't think their is a problem it is often because they has dismissed the position or pleases from a specific group. Palistinians are protesting. Palistinians are dying in protests. Palistinians are saying there is a problem. To understand that and to respond with "I'm not really that concerned" does reflect a lack of caring about what the Palistinians themselves have to say and are going through. 

 

[dimreepr]

42 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

In political policy discussions when one doesn't think their is a problem it is often because they has dismissed the position or pleases from a specific group. Palistinians are protesting. Palistinians are dying in protests. Palistinians are saying there is a problem. To understand that and to respond with "I'm not really that concerned" does reflect a lack of caring about what the Palistinians themselves have to say and are going through. 

4

If you give to every charity, you'll be in need yourself.

The problem is, the Palestinians are helping to create the narrative; it's easy to see a trap when someone's fallen in, it's even easier to dig yourself out when you're not that someone.

Back to the OP:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/world/middleeast/israel-law-jews-arabic.html

Quote

In an incendiary move hailed as historic by Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition but denounced by centrists and leftists as racist and anti-democratic, Israel’s Parliament enacted a law that enshrines the right of national self-determination as “unique to the Jewish people” — not all citizens.

It would seem so, yes...

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

In political policy discussions when one doesn't think their is a problem it is often because they has dismissed the position or pleases from a specific group. Palistinians are protesting. Palistinians are dying in protests. Palistinians are saying there is a problem. To understand that and to respond with "I'm not really that concerned" does reflect a lack of caring about what the Palistinians themselves have to say and are going through. 

 

What's important is MigL''s intention, not what you think he means. I'm sure he will clarify.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

What's important is MigL''s intention

Devil's advocate, more often than not, just guessing...

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Devil's advocate, more often than not, just guessing...

That doesn't change what he might have meant though. We are from all over the world and stuff can mean different things to different people but I am aware of the subtle difference between those two statements, which may have passed over Ten oz''s head. I'm not being deprecating btw.

[Ten oz]

15 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

What's important is MigL''s intention, not what you think he means. I'm sure he will clarify.

When it is a post responding me what I think is relevant. 

12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Devil's advocate, more often than not, just guessing...

The devil never feels they have enough of those.....

[dimreepr]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

The devil never feels they have enough of those.....

 

Nor do the charities, but both are necessary.

[Ten oz]

38 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Nor do the charities, but both are necessary.

This isn't a purely philosophical discussion. The Israeli govt currently holds all the terroritories being disputed and are calling the shots. 

[dimreepr]

37 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

This isn't a purely philosophical discussion. 

 

Indeed not, politics has far more to say, although I'm not sure it has anything more to contribute... 

[MigL]

Disregarding all other aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict...

Article 4, of the Palestinian constitution, states that Islam is the official religion of Palestine, with respect for all other religions.

I haven't actually read the bill passed by Israel, so I'm making a few assumptions.
But what, then, is so upsetting about declaring that Israel's religion is officially Judaism, as long as other religions are also allowed and not forced out ?

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Disregarding all other aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict...

Article 4, of the Palestinian constitution, states that Islam is the official religion of Palestine, with respect for all other religions.

I haven't actually read the bill passed by Israel, so I'm making a few assumptions.
But what, then, is so upsetting about declaring that Israel's religion is officially Judaism, as long as other religions are also allowed and not forced out ?

1 - Palistine doesn't actually exist as a governing body. 

2 - Two wrongs don't make a right.

[MigL]

1:  The Palestinians have elected governments and a constitution. The internal squabbles ( and outside instigators ) that prevent the government of the West Bank from getting along with the one governing the Gaza Strip doesn't change that.  
Neither does the fact that some countries don't recognize the legitimacy of the government democratically elected by the Palestinians.

2:  The US considers itself an English speaking country, yet there is a large percentage of Hispanics whose native tongue is Spanish ( Mexican ). Hispanics are free to speak their native tongue if they so choose.
Italy is a Roman Catholic country, yet immigrants are free to practice whatever religion they choose.

Quebec denies its English speaking citizens the right to post signage in one of the two official languages.

I can see how the third example is wrong, but you're going to have to explain how the first two are.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

1:  The Palestinians have elected governments and a constitution. The internal squabbles ( and outside instigators ) that prevent the government of the West Bank from getting along with the one governing the Gaza Strip doesn't change that.  
Neither does the fact that some countries don't recognize the legitimacy of the government democratically elected by the Palestinians.

2:  The US considers itself an English speaking country, yet there is a large percentage of Hispanics whose native tongue is Spanish ( Mexican ). Hispanics are free to speak their native tongue if they so choose.
Italy is a Roman Catholic country, yet immigrants are free to practice whatever religion they choose.

Quebec denies its English speaking citizens the right to post signage in one of the two official languages.

I can see how the third example is wrong, but you're going to have to explain how the first two are.

This is all just a bunch of whataboutism riddled with inaccurate claims. Their is not an official language in the U.S. nor is Italy a religious state.

Quote

 

Many people are surprised to learn that the United States has no official language. As one of the major centers of commerce and trade, and a major English-speaking country, many assume that English is the country's official language. But despite efforts over the years, the United States has no official language.

https://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html

 

Quote

 

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respects this right in practice.

There was no change in the status of respect for religious freedom during the period covered by this report, and government policy continued to contribute to the generally free practice of religion. There is no state religion

https://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2005/51560.htm

 

Your inaccuracies highlights the problem with what Israel is doing, it is un-democratic. Nearly all Democracies avoid such declaration. Take a look at the Countries globally that have officially endorsed a Religion. It isn't good company. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion

 

[MigL]

Read your own link...

Israel defines Judaism as a culture.
Not a religion.

Other religions are free to be practiced.
It is the Jewish heritage they are trying to preserve.

And you'll call it 'whataboutism' again but I don't see any threads being opened as to how any of the other countries mentioned in your link are slipping into fascism.
Why is Israel being singled out ?
( again !!! )

 

Edit:
You're right the US doesn't have an 'official' language.
But try going into any government office and demanding service in anything other than English.
See how you make out.

Edited July 23, 2018 by MigL

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, MigL said:

And you'll call it 'whataboutism' again but I don't see any threads being opened as to how any of the other countries mentioned in your link are slipping into fascism.
Why is Israel being singled out ?

I clearly said the list wasn't good company. That obviously implies I disagree with them all. Israel is being singled out because they are the most recent ones. Also, there have been many discussions which have criticized middle eastern theocracies. I am calling this whataboutism because that is what your arguement is. Rather than addressing the issue directly on its own merits you carrying of about inaccurate falsely equivalent matters like whether or not U.S. has an official language (it doesn't).

What Israel has done also codifies the settlements which you previously conceded were wrong for them to have taken.

Quote

 

Israel passed early Thursday a controversial bill that officially defines Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people and asserts that "the realization of the right to national self-determination in Israel is unique to the Jewish people," sparking outrage from Israel's Arab community and provoking concern from the international community.

62 lawmakers in Israel's Knesset voted in favor of the legislation and 55 opposed it. Two lawmakers, Benny Begin (Likud) and Orly Levy-Abekasis (independent) abstained.

The nation-state law also includes clauses stating that a "united Jerusalem" is the capital of Israel and that Hebrew is the country's official language. Another says that "the state sees the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.

https://www-haaretz-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/israel-passes-controversial-nation-state-bill-1.6291048?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.haaretz.com%2Fisrael-news%2Fisrael-passes-controversial-nation-state-bill-1.6291048

 

 

[MigL]

The quote function can sometimes be dishonest, as it gives an out of context interpretation of what the original poster intended.
( I hardly ever quote anyone )

And I can see why you would ignore some of my post, as you still haven't explained why protecting cultural identity is a bad thing.
( see #2 in one of your previous posts on this page )
In Canada we firmly believe in protecting our British derived heritage, but we also protect the culture of immigrants through tax-payer funded Multiculturalism.
( the only one that used the 'notwithstanding' clause of the constitution to get around that, and favor French-Canadian culture, is Quebec )
Our Multiculturalism seems to work much more harmoniously than your American 'melting pot' model.

But why ignore your own post and link.
State religions aren't only found in the Middle East ( as you quickly dismissed in your post ).
They are also in countries like Argentina, Poland, Greece, England, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden.
Some of these are not bad company at all.
( I can see the OP now, "Sweden evolving into a fascist state" )
When you hold one country to a different standard than others, and chastise their 'evil' acts while giving a pass to others who do the same, that is not 'whataboutism', it is preferential treatment.
( and no, I will not start tossing around labels like anti-Semitism; I hope we're above that )

But your link also states that Judaism is considered a 'culture' in Israel, and all other religions are free to be practiced, as are most likely, all other cultures.

I have previously conceded that I don't agree with expanding settlements, and the fact that this bill offers 'support' for such, could be a bad thing, and further destabilize the area.
But the fact that this bill makes Israel the 'homeland' and 'unique' to the Jewish people ( not religion ) doesn't prevent/exclude any one else from making it their home with equal rights to everyone else.

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

The quote function can sometimes be dishonest, as it gives an out of context interpretation of what the original poster intended.
( I hardly ever quote anyone )

And I can see why you would ignore some of my post, as you still haven't explained why protecting cultural identity is a bad thing.
( see #2 in one of your previous posts on this page )
In Canada we firmly believe in protecting our British derived heritage, but we also protect the culture of immigrants through tax-payer funded Multiculturalism.
( the only one that used the 'notwithstanding' clause of the constitution to get around that, and favor French-Canadian culture, is Quebec )
Our Multiculturalism seems to work much more harmoniously than your American 'melting pot' model.

But why ignore your own post and link.
State religions aren't only found in the Middle East ( as you quickly dismissed in your post ).
They are also in countries like Argentina, Poland, Greece, England, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden.
Some of these are not bad company at all.
( I can see the OP now, "Sweden evolving into a fascist state" )
When you hold one country to a different standard than others, and chastise their 'evil' acts while giving a pass to others who do the same, that is not 'whataboutism', it is preferential treatment.
( and no, I will not start tossing around labels like anti-Semitism; I hope we're above that )

But your link also states that Judaism is considered a 'culture' in Israel, and all other religions are free to be practiced, as are most likely, all other cultures.

I have previously conceded that I don't agree with expanding settlements, and the fact that this bill offers 'support' for such, could be a bad thing, and further destabilize the area.
But the fact that this bill makes Israel the 'homeland' and 'unique' to the Jewish people ( not religion ) doesn't prevent/exclude any one else from making it their home with equal rights to everyone else.

That's a good point, but it's a little like saying "there is no Trump" three times and expecting him to disappear.

[MigL]

I only wish...

[StringJunky]

When nations wish to preserve who they are, instead of working towards evolving into a new co-operative state, there will always be conflict.