dark matter question

[hoola]

has any thought been given to dark "matter" being not made of some alternative type matter, but is a collection of  "squeezed space"  itself, mimicking the presence of an invisible material ? If space is thought to be expanding, why can't it shrink at some points within that general expansion? if the early universe had some  regions of space that were slightly denser, in a random placement among "normal" space,  these slightly altered space components could seek each other out, thus clumping, and  so be incorporated within galaxy formations, thus speeding up the stellar rotation rates.

Edited July 22, 2018 by hoola

[Strange]

Space can be (roughly) described as being “squeezed” by the presence of mass-energy (hence what we call gravity, etc). 

You are suggesting this happens without the presence of mass. Why would it happen? Without an explanation, this is not a very useful idea. 

 

[hoola]

 I conjecture that  IF  there are naturally occurring variations of the dynamics of (unperturbed) free space, allowing for at least 2 slightly varying states,  the effect is a long term separation of those elements. The early universe supposedly expanded less rapidly than present, and if these variations of states were mixed in a more homogeneous fashion at first, the sequestering of the heavier state(s) into galaxy binding would have had less time to act, slowing expansion. Eventually, as the heavier state(s) were subsumed into galactic halos, this could leave the space between galaxies  with  a higher predominance of the lighter state. allowing for a more rapid expansion between them, and less so within them.  I read with interest about a month ago that a very early galaxy has  evidence of little or no "dark matter" in it. While this alone (if indeed this is true) is not why I think the early universe played out in this fashion, it is interesting, and i like the idea that dark matter could be stranger than just another atypical particle.

[swansont]

Space isn't a substance. The "state" of space is the result of (as Strange has noted) the presence of mass-energy. You seem to be proposing that space has curvature all on its own, which requires a new model.

[hoola]

 i am suggesting that space has it's own curvature, and that curvature is expressed by (or perhaps is) the physical shape, or duration of the quantum foam, within each microscopic grain of space. The Casimir effect is shows a default average material force of space. Such a broadly arranged test is going to average out any variations within the area of the test plates.

[Strange]

18 minutes ago, hoola said:

i am suggesting that space has it's own curvature,

I know. 

But you haven’t presented any theoretical basis or evidence for that. And you haven’t shown a mathematical model that reproduces galactic rotation curves and orbits of galaxies in clusters  

So there seems to be absolutely no reason to consider this. 

22 minutes ago, hoola said:

The Casimir effect is shows a default average material force of space

No it doesn’t. 

[hoola]

It is the jiggling of virtual particles that deny the ability to reach 0 kelvin, that is what I am considering the default minimum average force of space.  

Edited July 22, 2018 by hoola

[swansont]

39 minutes ago, hoola said:

It is the jiggling of virtual particles that deny the ability to reach 0 kelvin,

Please explain this.

39 minutes ago, hoola said:

that is what I am considering the default minimum average force of space.  

Why is this not zero? There is no Casimir force in free space 

[hoola]

no casimir force in space...? there would be if a proper setup was arranged, but my meaning is that there is a fundamental thing going on and that can be detected by perturbing that "thing" via the test.

[Strange]

3 hours ago, hoola said:

It is the jiggling of virtual particles that deny the ability to reach 0 kelvin, that is what I am considering the default minimum average force of space.  

How is this connected with the topic of the thread?

What is "force of space"?
 

2 hours ago, hoola said:

no casimir force in space...? 

No Casimir force in FREE space.

2 hours ago, hoola said:

there is a fundamental thing going on and that can be detected by perturbing that "thing" via the test.

What is this "thing"? In what way is it "going on"?

What is "the test"? And how would it detect the "thing"? (And can you quantify the size of this effect, whatever it is?)

 

[hoola]

 The title of this thread is....""Has any thought been given to............."      presumably the answer is no.    As far as space not having a curvature,  doesn't all space have some  degree of curvature, being filled of perturbing elements and energies ?

Edited July 24, 2018 by hoola

[Strange]

5 hours ago, hoola said:

The title of this thread is....""Has any thought been given to............."      presumably the answer is no.

Maybe. There are so many different ideas being looked at I wouldn’t rule anything out without some extensive research. 

5 hours ago, hoola said:

As far as space not having a curvature,  doesn't all space have some  degree of curvature, being filled of perturbing elements and energies ?

Yes - because of the presence of mass-energy. 

You are suggesting that there just happens to be the right amount of extra curvature, for no reason, and with just the right distribution to produce the effects we see, again with no reason. 

This is basically equivalent to magic. 

[hoola]

well then, isn't space curved by the mere presence of a universe full of itself, and would be so even if nothing else was in it?  My original intention of this post was to  ask if anyone on the site knows of any credible person in the physics community has conjectured that DM is a space phenomena and not a particle...and could direct me to a utube lecture or video on the subject if they know of one. I realize I am not qualified to do more then to ask the question...I feel fairly sure someone has looked at this rather obvious  question and then ruled it out, and I would like to know why. Thanks in advance for any help...

Edited July 24, 2018 by hoola

[Strange]

 

1 hour ago, hoola said:

well then, isn't space curved by the mere presence of a universe full of itself, and would be so even if nothing else was in it? 

What does that mean?

Are you referring to the fact that there is an overall geometry of the entire universe? Measurements show this to be flat (within the limits of measurement).

1 hour ago, hoola said:

My original intention of this post was to  ask if anyone on the site knows of any credible person in the physics community has conjectured that DM is a space phenomena and not a particle..

I am not aware of any. It seems had to imagine how it could be a property of space itself when it is not present everywhere in the same amount distributed.

Space-time curvature needs to be "caused" by something (typically the presence of mass and/or energy). 

(Dark energy, on the other hand, is possibly a property of space itself - because, as far as we know, it is everywhere and everywhere the same.)

[swansont]

10 hours ago, hoola said:

 The title of this thread is....""Has any thought been given to............."      presumably the answer is no.    As far as space not having a curvature,  doesn't all space have some  degree of curvature, being filled of perturbing elements and energies ?

That's a hard question to answer, because ideas without merit don't tend to make it into widespread discussion — someone shoots it down. If you have a hole in the model, or it's otherwise flawed, it usually gets shelved before publication.

Space being a substance suffers from all of the problems of having an aether. Space having curvature because of mass-energy is GR. Something else requires new physics.

[hoola]

why couldn't dark energy and dark matter be of  a common origin? just as quantum phenomena has a dual reality, why not the virtual particles delivering the dark energy component with the slight left over energy due to a minimum inefficiency  of the pair creation /annialation process, and the "dark matter", being a result of the physical requirement of the process to be within our universe. During that brief period, the necessary geometric pair structures could have a range of sizes during physical presence, thus offering the curvatures. 

[Strange]

11 minutes ago, hoola said:

why couldn't dark energy and dark matter be of  a common origin?

There are various models that attempt a common explanation. The challenge is they behave so differently it is hard to see how they can be unified. They don’t really have anything in common  

 

[ALine]

What has lead you toward this conclusion hoola? What previous ideas did you use to develop this hypothesis and what exact idea are you trying to convey?

[hoola]

aline, it isn't a conclusion, only a question as to if there was any thinking in relevant circles that certain altered conditions of space itself, if that were possible to happen, were to be causing the dark matter phenomena....that's it, just a question. The ideas that led to this question are that if space has a natural curvature in each microscopic grain, and that curvature is intimately related to the gravitational potential of each grain, that a tendency of the "heaviest grains" to agglomerate might occur. My second post explains it best.