Confused about "antisemitism" in the Labour Party

[mistermack]

On 8/22/2018 at 6:56 PM, MigL said:

The fact remains that none of the Russians were killed for being of a 'vermin' religion.

I'm sure they'd be thrilled to hear it.

[John Cuthber]

People might find this perspective interesting
https://israelpalestinenews.org/exposed-how-britains-anti-semitism-scaremongers-operate/

[MigL]

I don't think identifying what a couple of idiotic English Jews do, with the agenda of the Jewish state of Israel, is particularly helpful.
Nor are southern US white supremacists, or even the core of the German Nazi party in 1939, representative of today's German state.

Just this afternoon I saw a report that five Palestinian women from Gaza, had been granted access to Israeli medical facilities for treatment.
I wonder how it would go if it was Israeli women seeking help in Gaza ?

[mistermack]

You've got to admire Jews who can see past the smokescreen. This is from Wikipedia on "antisemitism in the Labour Party" :

" In addition, a number of Jewish groups in the Labour Party have disputed the antisemitism claims. These include Jewish Voice for Labour, Jews for Justice for Palestinians and the Jewish Socialists' Group; all of whom have said that accusations of antisemitism against the Labour Party have a twofold purpose. Firstly to conflate antisemitism with criticism of Israel in order to deter such criticism and secondly to undermine the Labour leadership since Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader in 2015 ".     

Presumably, these Jews are antisemitic, they make the same argument as me !            

[dimreepr]

11 hours ago, MigL said:

I wonder how it would go if it was Israeli women seeking help in Gaza ?

I can't imagine why she would.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20415675

 

You do know the people who live there are human, right?

[John Cuthber]

12 hours ago, MigL said:

I wonder how it would go if it was Israeli women seeking help in Gaza ?

As I  have pointed out before, it might go just fine- if she chose one of the bits of Gaza that is currently illegally occupied by Israelis.

[MigL]

Of course they are human, Dimreepr.
I've never suggested otherwise.

I've only suggested that maybe they should vote for a government that helps them socially and economically, instead of buying rockets to fire at Israel.
And again, where is the criticism for Egypt, which has shut its border with Gaza even tigter than Israel has ?
And yes, I realize two wrongs don't make either right, but why exclusively concentrate on Israel's actions ?

[John Cuthber]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

but why exclusively concentrate on Israel's actions ?

Did Egypt invade Gaza land like Israel did?

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

I've only suggested that maybe they should vote for a government that helps them socially and economically, instead of buying rockets to fire at Israel.

If someone is invading your land, and bulldozing your homes it may seem that stopping them is a higher priority than building a new target sorry, I mean hospital

[MigL]

Maybe you've forgotten the history of Gaza...

"Originally occupied by Egypt, which retains control of Gaza's southern border, the territory was captured by Israel during the 1967 Middle East war. Israel withdrew its troops and around 7,000 settlers in 2005."

from Dimreepr's link.

 

[John Cuthber]

28 minutes ago, MigL said:

Israel withdrew its troops and around 7,000 settlers in 2005."

Why?

 

[MigL]

I think everyone is familiar with A Sharon's plan for 'disengagement' from the Palestinians.
Israelis in Gaza were compensated, and even forcefully relocated.

That is a general answer to your vague question; You'll have to elaborate a bit if you want a more specific answer.

[StringJunky]

I've just learned that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic are not the same idea. There are, apparently, ultra-Orthodox Jews that are anti-Zionist. It's certainly a complicated and nuanced situation. I would have thought these guys were the ones most pro-Israel; I learn something everyday

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36160928

Edited August 28, 2018 by StringJunky

[mistermack]

Jonathan Sacks ( former top Rabbi ) has just accused Corbyn of making the most offensive remarks since Enoch Powell.

Since reality has gone right out of the window, I'm naming Donald Trump as the new Messiah. 

[MigL]

Unfortunately, some Americans will believe you.

[John Cuthber]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

I've just learned that anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic are not the same idea.

Good.
Do you also recognise that being anti Jewish is different from either?
Please spread the word.

I look forward to the day when people recognise the not all Semites are Jewish and not all Jews are Semitic.
Better yet, when people understand that being rude about the government of Israel is not being anti Jewish any more than being rude about the government of the United Kingdom is being "anti British " or " anti Christian".

6 hours ago, MigL said:

You'll have to elaborate a bit if you want a more specific answer.

For what reason(s) did the event happen.

Why did " Israel withdrew its troops and around 7,000 settlers in 2005."

 

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, John Cuthber said:

Do you also recognise that being anti Jewish is different from either?

Is Semitic different from Jewish?

Edited August 29, 2018 by StringJunky

[DrP]

6 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Is Semitic different from Jewish?

I didn't know this either:

Semitic

sɪˈmɪtɪk/  

adjective

adjective: Semitic

1. 1.

   relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
2. 2.

   relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic

[geordief]

Actually (I looked this up earlier) "anti semitic" was apparently  a polite invention so as not to say "anti jewish" by the Germans in the 19th century  . It was first described as "jew hate" ( Judenhass ) and "anti semitism" sounded more scientific. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Edited August 29, 2018 by geordief

[Ten oz]

On 8/27/2018 at 7:53 PM, MigL said:

Just this afternoon I saw a report that five Palestinian women from Gaza, had been granted access to Israeli medical facilities for treatment.
I wonder how it would go if it was Israeli women seeking help in Gaza ?

The U.S. has done more good around the world than has Mexico but that doesn't mean much to a specific discussion about U.S. Mexico relations and immigration. In my opinion it is out of respect for Israel that many of us in this discussion expect better from them. Just as my fellow countrymen here in the States are better than a stupid wall on the southern boarder and separating families so too are Israelis better than expanded settlements. Simply picking favorites between Israel and Palestinians or identifying one as better than the other accomplishes very little. The U.S. is a safer, more tolerant, and generous country than is Mexico but that doesn't mean we get  to treat Mexicans like trash. 

[mistermack]

I don't expect better from Israel. You need to be blind, deaf and illiterate to expect better, with their record. I expect them to lie and lie, while continuing their program of theft and ethnic cleansing.

And yes, the US does some good round the world. However, it also does incredible harm round the world. The balance is hugely negative. Whereas I'm not aware of harm done by Mexico to others. 

 

[MigL]

Totally agree with you Ten oz, and I do criticize some of Israel's actions.
I just find that there's much more to criticize Palestinians and Israel's neighbors about.

Here are the facts as I remember them John...
Gaza was under Egyptian governance until the 1967 'six day' war, when the Israelis occupied it to use as a buffer zone.
In the early 2000s, A Sharon was impatient with the "Roadmap to Peace' as it was moving very slowly, or had come to an impasse.
He decided to unilaterally implement a two-state solution to disengage from the Paleestinian problem.
He resettled/evacuated all Israelis from Gaza ( some forcefully ), and released Gaza to the Palestinians.
The Palestinians promptly destroyed all infrastructure, including greenhouses for food production and subsequently voted in a government whose only mandate is the eradication of Israel from the face of the Earth. They then started firing missiles, supplied by neighboring states, into Israel.
Israel , after retaliating to the attacks, imposed a blockade to prevent the influx of arms into Gaza.
So now Gaza has no infrastructure/social services/local food production and all their imports have to go through Israeli inspection due to the blockade.

Are you going to tell me that my facts are wrong, and that Sharon had ulterior motives for giving up Gaza ?
Because I still don't know where your question is leading.

Edit: Oh, and Mistermack needs some history lessons.
         And to argue with facts, not emotions.

Edited August 29, 2018 by MigL

[dimreepr]

27 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I don't expect better from Israel. You need to be blind, deaf and illiterate to expect better, with their record. I expect them to lie and lie, while continuing their program of theft and ethnic cleansing.

1

They too are human, just because you don't understand their motives doesn't make them less so (walk a mile in their shoes).  

Quote

I pray that we find our way and that these types of events teach our citizens to walk a mile in the shoes of those for whom safety and security are long forgotten dreams. (The Huffington Post)

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by dimreepr
to add quote

[mistermack]

Their dead victims don't need any shoes, and a lot of the surviving victims can't afford them. And they won't be walking many miles. At it's narrow point, the Gaza strip is only 3.5 miles wide, and it's only 25 miles long. 

[dimreepr]

3 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Their dead victims don't need any shoes, and a lot of the surviving victims can't afford them. And they won't be walking many miles. At it's narrow point, the Gaza strip is only 3.5 miles wide, and it's only 25 miles long. 

That doesn't change my point, fear and hate have dictated to both sides, retribution won't solve the problem but understanding just might.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Totally agree with you Ten oz, and I do criticize some of Israel's actions.
I just find that there's much more to criticize Palestinians

 

I fundamentally disagree, as the more powerful, it's incumbent on Isreal to hold out the olive branch.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Here are the facts as I remember them John...
Gaza was under Egyptian governance until the 1967 'six day' war, when the Israelis occupied it to use as a buffer zone.
In the early 2000s, A Sharon was impatient with the "Roadmap to Peace' as it was moving very slowly, or had come to an impasse.
He decided to unilaterally implement a two-state solution to disengage from the Paleestinian problem.
He resettled/evacuated all Israelis from Gaza ( some forcefully ), and released Gaza to the Palestinians.
The Palestinians promptly destroyed all infrastructure, including greenhouses for food production and subsequently voted in a government whose only mandate is the eradication of Israel from the face of the Earth. They then started firing missiles, supplied by neighboring states, into Israel.
Israel , after retaliating to the attacks, imposed a blockade to prevent the influx of arms into Gaza.
So now Gaza has no infrastructure/social services/local food production and all their imports have to go through Israeli inspection due to the blockade.

That was then, this is now.

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Totally agree with you Ten oz, and I do criticize some of Israel's actions.
I just find that there's much more to criticize Palestinians and Israel's neighbors about.

Here are the facts as I remember them John...
Gaza was under Egyptian governance until the 1967 'six day' war, when the Israelis occupied it to use as a buffer zone.
In the early 2000s, A Sharon was impatient with the "Roadmap to Peace' as it was moving very slowly, or had come to an impasse.
He decided to unilaterally implement a two-state solution to disengage from the Paleestinian problem.
He resettled/evacuated all Israelis from Gaza ( some forcefully ), and released Gaza to the Palestinians.
The Palestinians promptly destroyed all infrastructure, including greenhouses for food production and subsequently voted in a government whose only mandate is the eradication of Israel from the face of the Earth. They then started firing missiles, supplied by neighboring states, into Israel.
Israel , after retaliating to the attacks, imposed a blockade to prevent the influx of arms into Gaza.
So now Gaza has no infrastructure/social services/local food production and all their imports have to go through Israeli inspection due to the blockade.

 

Are we talking about this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
which says "Despite the disengagement, the Gaza Strip is still considered by the United Nations, international human rights organisations and most legal scholars to be under military occupation by Israel"

and 

"The remaining settlements' greenhouses were looted by Palestinians for 2 days after the transfer, for irrigation pipes, water pumps, plastic sheeting and glass, but the greenhouses themselves remained structurally intact, until order was restored.^[50][66][68] Palestinian Authority security forces attempted to stop them, but did not have enough manpower to be effective. In some places, there was no security, while some Palestinian police officers joined the looters.^[69][70] The Palestine Economic Development Company (PED) invested $20,000,000 and by October the industry was back on its feet.^[66] Subsequently, the harvest, intended for export via Israel for Europe, was essentially lost due to Israeli restrictions on the Karni crossing which "was closed more than not", leading to losses in excess of $120,000 per day.^[69]Economic consultants estimated that the closures cost the whole agricultural sector in Gaza $450,000 a day in lost revenue."

And, given that behaviour, it's not unreasonable for the Palestinians to elect a government who wanted to destroy their enemy occupiers.