CharonY Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, MigL said: The Palestinians promptly destroyed all infrastructure, including greenhouses for food production and subsequently voted in a government whose only mandate is the eradication of Israel from the face of the Earth. Oh come one MigL, you are better than this. Doesn't it seem a bit weird as a claim? As a refresher: Quote The Greenhouses Israel responded to Hamas’ election victory by further restricting access in and out of Gaza. As it happens, these restrictions played a key role in explaining why Gaza’s greenhouses did not help it become Singapore. American Jewish leaders usually tell the story this way: When the settlers left, Israel handed over their greenhouses to the Palestinians, hoping they would use them to create jobs. Instead, Palestinians tore them down in an anti-Jewish rage. But one person who does not endorse that narrative is the prime mover behind the greenhouse deal, Australian-Jewish businessman James Wolfensohn, who served as the Quartet’s Special Envoy for Gaza Disengagement. In his memoir, Wolfensohn notes that “some damage was done to the greenhouses [as the result of post-disengagement looting] but they came through essentially intact” and were subsequently guarded by Palestinian Authority police. What really doomed the greenhouse initiative, Wolfensohn argues, were Israeli restrictions on Gazan exports. “In early December [2005], he writes, “the much-awaited first harvest of quality cash crops—strawberries, cherry tomatoes, cucumbers, sweet peppers and flowers—began. These crops were intended for export via Israel for Europe. But their success relied upon the Karni crossing [between Gaza and Israel], which, beginning in mid-January 2006, was closed more than not. The Palestine Economic Development Corporation, which was managing the greenhouses taken over from the settlers, said that it was experiencing losses in excess of $120,000 per dayIt was excruciating. This lost harvest was the most recognizable sign of Gaza’s declining fortunes and the biggest personal disappointment during my mandate.” The point of dredging up this history is not to suggest that Israel deserves all the blame for its long and bitter conflict with Hamas. It does not. Hamas bears the blame for every rocket it fires, and those rockets have not only left Israelis scarred and disillusioned. They have also badly undermined the Palestinian cause. The point is to show—contrary to the establishment American Jewish narrative—that Israel has repeatedly played into Hamas’ hands by not strengthening those Palestinians willing to pursue statehood through nonviolence and mutual recognition. Israel played into Hamas’ hands when Sharon refused to seriously entertain the Arab and Geneva peace plans. Israel played into Hamas’ hands when it refused to support a Palestinian unity government that could have given Abbas the democratic legitimacy that would have strengthened his ability to cut a two state deal. And Israel played into Hamas’ hands when it responded to the group’s takeover of Gaza with a blockade that—although it has some legitimate security features—has destroyed Gaza’s economy, breeding the hatred and despair on which Hamas thrives. This is not to say that looters did not added to destruction, but it conveniently leaves out the part where the games was obviously rigged: loss of fertile farmlands due to the security perimeter, no access to fishing grounds, loss of access to markets etc. Ultimately the moderates had an impossible challenge and it is not merely to self-destructive behaviour why they failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Anyway, even if criticism of Israel wes totally misplaced, it wouldn't be anti-Jewish. Nothing I have heard of that Jeremy Corbyn has said was critical of Judaism or Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrP Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, John Cuthber said: Anyway, even if criticism of Israel wes totally misplaced, it wouldn't be anti-Jewish. Nothing I have heard of that Jeremy Corbyn has said was critical of Judaism or Jews. ... what if someone professed to be an atheist? That totally contradicts Judaism - would that make you anti-sematic in the eyes of the Rabbis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, DrP said: ... what if someone professed to be an atheist? That totally contradicts Judaism - would that make you anti-sematic in the eyes of the Rabbis? It's not anti Jewish because it's too busy being anti Christian, And Islamic and so on. I'm an atheist. I don't pick on Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 6 minutes ago, DrP said: ... what if someone professed to be an atheist? That totally contradicts Judaism - would that make you anti-sematic in the eyes of the Rabbis? Whichever way you cut it, hate is the theme; anti-semitism is a good disguise if one wants an excuse to hide behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordief Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Just now, dimreepr said: Whichever way you cut it, hate is the theme; anti-semitism is a good disguise if one wants an excuse to hide behind. Yes I would be surprised if atheists could not be anti semitic. It is all about scapegoating I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 minute ago, geordief said: Yes I would be surprised if atheists could not be anti semitic. Not all atheists hate religion, I don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordief Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Not all atheists hate religion, I don't... But we all hate our oppressors (whether directly or in other ways) and religion can be oppressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Just now, geordief said: But we all hate our oppressors (whether directly or in other ways) and religion can be oppressive. Tell that to Nelson Mandela... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordief Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Tell that to Nelson Mandela... I am sure he hated his oppressors too but rose above it. He must also have felt the support of others to sustain his spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Just now, geordief said: I am sure he hated his oppressors too but rose above it. He must also have felt the support of others to sustain his spirit. To forgive is divine and it's not because of this god thingy; or you could just punch a wall and expect your oppressor to fall down, bleeding and contrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordief Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, dimreepr said: To forgive is divine and it's not because of this god thingy; or you could just punch a wall and expect your oppressor to fall down, bleeding and contrite. It is also a luxury.After the conflict one can let bygones be bygones but during it one has to harden one's feelings. As someone said "all is fair in love and war". Unless you are a pacifist you have to accept that your actions may appear hateful even when you tell yourself that they are not. If the odds are completely in the oppressor's favour then you have to seek your own space (hate them or not) Edited August 29, 2018 by geordief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, geordief said: It is also a luxury.After the conflict one can let bygones be bygones but during it one has to harden one's feelings. As someone said "all is fair in love and war" Unless you are a pacifist you have to accept that your action may appear hateful even when you tell yourself that they are not. I'm not suggesting one shouldn't defend oneself but the luxury IS, punching the wall. Edited August 29, 2018 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 (edited) I don't want to derail this thread any further, as Israeli/Palestinian relations are not the OP. I only stated facts as reported in the news. And although the news is not objective, I did not interpret those facts or give an opinion regarding them. From your link CharonY… "But their success relied upon the Karni crossing [between Gaza and Israel], which, beginning in mid-January 2006, was closed more than not." I wonder what else was happening in 2006... From Wiki - List of Palestinian Rocket Attacks on Israel, 2002-06 "1,247 rockets and 28 mortars were fired at Israel in 2006.[1] Rocket attack on Mitzpe Hila, 2006 February 3, 2006 A Qassam rocket struck a family's house in the western Negev village of Karmia, moderately injuring four people, including a 7-month-old baby.[18] March 28, 2006 Islamic Jihad fired a 122 mm Katyusha rocket from the Gaza Strip into Israel.[19] Near the Kibbutz Nachal Oz two Israeli-Arabs (Salam Ziadin and Khalid, 16, a Bedouin father and son) were killed when a dormant Qassam rocket they found in the Nahal Oz area exploded.[citation needed] Larger numbers of Qassam rockets began landing in the Western Negev in March 2006: 49 in March, 64 in April, 46 in May, and over 83 by the end of June. Most of the rocket launches prior to 2006 were carried out by Islamic Jihad but following Hamas's election victory, other groups such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement have been claimed to take over the firings.[citation needed] March 30, 2006 Two Qassam rockets landed in kibbutz Karmia, south of Ashkelon, one of them in a football field, where children played only hours earlier, and injured one person.[20] June 8, 2006 Two rockets landed in Sderot and two in nearby Moshav Netiv Ha'asara during Human Rights Watch's visit to the Israeli border area on June 8, 2006.[21] June 9, 2006 Rockets were fired at Israel from Fatah-controlled Gaza, and a few hours later an IDF bombarded reported launch sites at the Gaza beach. An explosion on the beach (possibly a result of the bombardment) killed eight palestinians, seven of them members of the same family. Hamas blamed Israel and announced that it was going to recommence rocket attacks. On 15 June Hamas offered to reinstate the ceasefire, but Israel refused requiring Hamas to stop the fire first.[22] June 11, 2006 Three people were wounded, one critically when a Qassam landed near the Sapir Academic College near the Negev town of Sderot.[23] 14 Qassams were fired throughout the day.[24] July 4, 2006 A Qassam rocket hit a High school at the Israeli city Ashkelon. The rocket was launched by Hamas militants from the town of Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza strip.[25] July 6, 2006 10 Qassam rockets were launched at Israeli towns from the northern Gaza Strip, inflicting damage but no casualties.[26] July 7, 2006 Three Israeli civilians were wounded when a Qassam rocket landed in a basketball court in Sderot.[27][28] July 9, 2006 An Israeli civilian was moderately wounded as a Qassam rocket struck his private car in Sderot. Another rocket directly hit a house in Sderot, causing severe damage but no casualties.[29][30] July 27, 2006 A Qassam rocket landed next to a kindergarten in a community south of Ashkelon at 10:45 a.m. Friday. Two children were lightly wounded and eight more people suffered shock. Additionally, the kindergarten building was damaged.[31] September 20, 2006 Two teenage Israeli Arab shepherds were moderately wounded by two Qassam rockets fired from Gaza.[32] November 15, 2006 Twelve rockets in four separate attacks hit Sderot, killing Faina Slutzker, 57, and seriously wounding two others. One of the wounded, Maor Peretz, a security guard, lost both legs in the attack.[33] November 21, 2006 A Qassam rocket struck a factory and hit 43-year-old Yaakov Yaakobov, fatally wounding him.[34] June–August peak of 2006 Rocket Attacks During 2006, the main concentration of qassam rocket attacks occurred during June, July and early August.[35] At the start of the period of peak hostilities, the ceasefire of February 2005 was officially still in place.[36] On 25 January Hamas won the Palestinian elections. On 25 March President Abbas endorsed the cabinet consisting largely of Hamas members.[37] The Quartet on the Middle East, which included the USA, required Hamas to forsake violence, recognize Israel and respect all previous agreements. When Hamas refused, they imposed the 2006-2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority (Hamas-led). Israel placed restrictions on Palestinian's freedom of movement, especially entering and Leaving Gaza. The US and Fatah collaborated on a plan to collapse the Hamas government. Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades continued to fire rockets into Israel from Gaza, where it refused to obey orders from Hamas government officials.[38][39] In May and April Hamas leaders repeatedly threatened a new Intifada.[40][41] Although Israel acknowledged that Hamas was largely sticking to the February 2005 cease-fire, it recommenced assassinations of Hamas leaders with the killing of Jamal Abu Samhadana on 8 June.[42] He was a commander of the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), and on 23 April had been appointed Director General of the police forces in the Hamas government's Interior Ministry. He was considered a wanted militant by Israel,[43] being suspected of an attack on a US diplomatic convoy, three years previously.[42] The PRC denied involvement in the 2003 attack. Contradictory reasons were given by Israeli sources as to the objective for the strike on the PRC camp, the Israeli military claiming that the strike was an attack on the camp, while an Israeli security source said that it was prompted by Samhadana's presence.[44][45] Samhadana was killed along with at least three other PRC members, by four missiles fired by Israeli Apache helicopters, guided by Israeli reconnaissance drones, at a PRC camp in Rafah.[46][47] Palestinian human rights sources called the killings extrajudicial executions and assassinations. They reported that Israeli media sources stated that Defense Minister Amir Peretz had personally approved the operation.[48][49] Al Mezan Center for Human Rights condemned the assassinations, particularly the fact that they had been adopted as official Israeli policy. It said that assassinations were war crimes according to international humanitarian law, mainly the Fourth Geneva Convention, which bans all types of extrajudicial capital punishment.[49] Based on a synthesis of media reports, Lin points to a 'chronology of crisis', which includes Samhadana's assassination by the IDF.[22] Samhadna's supporters threatened to revenge his death.[45] The next day, in response, Islamic Jihad fired rockets at Israel from Fatah-controlled Gaza, and a few hours later the IDF retaliated in turn with a bombardment of alleged launch sites on a Gaza beach near Beit Lahia. During the time span of the IDF bombardment, a civilian Gaza family, the Ghalias, was all but wiped out in an explosion.[50] In response to the assassination of its Ministry official and the civilian 'beach' deaths, Hamas announced that it was going to recommence rocket attacks.[36] On 15 June Hamas offered to reinstate the ceasefire, but Israel refused, requiring Hamas to stop the fire first. This led to more Israeli counter-measures and Hamas, PRC and Army of Islam rocket and other attacks. On 24 June 2006 an IDF commando unit abducted two suspected Hamas members in "the first arrest raid in the territory since Israel pulled out of the area a year ago".[51][52] The abduction of IDF Corporal Gilad Shalit occurred the next day (25 June 2006).[22][42][53][54] On 28 June Israel launched Operation Summer Rains with the stated objectives of securing the release of Shalit and preventing the launching of Qassam rockets,[55] which had escalated markedly since the 8 June assassination by the IDF.[22][42] On the night of 29 June Israel detained 64 Hamas officials, including some in the Legislative council.[56] By 27 August the IAF had conducted 247 aerial assaults into Gaza, damaging Gaza's electricity network and killing over 200 Gazans (including 44 children), for the loss of one Israeli life.[57] November 2006 Rocket Fire Peak During November, the second most intense flurry of rocket attacks from Gaza into southern Israel took place.[35] On 12 October 2006, after a month during which Hamas had refrained from rocket launches but other fractions continued to fire about one rocket per day, the IDF failed in an attempted assassination on a senior Hamas commander.[42] Later on the same day, IAF strikes killed 8 armed Palestinians and wounded 20.[58] In response to the Israeli assassination attempt, Hamas resumed its rocket fire from Gaza, lightly injuring 4 Israelis over the next 2 weeks. In turn Israel responded on 1 November 2006 with Operation Autumn Clouds.[59] On November 8, the IDF killed or mortally wounded 23 and injured at least 40 Palestinians, all civilians.[60] A volley of tank shells hit a built-up civilian area. Israel apologized and attributed the Beit Hanoun shelling to a technical malfunction. Israel said the shells were fired in response to the firing of qassam rockets, probably from a car, the previous day (7 November).[61] By 8 November, the 240 airstrikes in 8 days, ground clashes and destruction of land and buildings of the IDF's Operation Autumn Clouds, had left 68 Palestinians (at least 50 of them militants [62]) dead, including two Palestinian ambulance workers from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, and over 150 injured, compared to 1 IDF soldier killed and 1 injured.[63][64]" Makes for interesting reading, doesn't it ? And makes you wonder how all those rockets got in, but their produce couldn't get out. Edited August 29, 2018 by MigL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 28 minutes ago, MigL said: And makes you wonder how all those rockets got in, but their produce couldn't get out. The need seems an obvious answer, but that depends on the relative need and how rockets feed people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 47 minutes ago, MigL said: Makes for interesting reading, doesn't it ? And makes you wonder how all those rockets got in, but their produce couldn't get out. A) the crossing was closed repeatedly before the mentioned rocket attacks. Though often due to security concerns. Nonetheless, it invalidates your point that Palestinians just went and destroyed their own infrastructure. B) Really? Do you think rockets were part of regular trade and used the same routes as food? Have another read from that time: Quote he key to Gaza's economic success is the flow of goods across the border, said William Taylor, the top U.S. adviser to Wolfensohn. But there is only one shipping point, at Karni Crossing, between Israel and Gaza. On average, 35 trucks a day pass through the crossing, but Israel often closes the border without notice because of security concerns or technical difficulties. Karni was closed for 14 days from late September to early October, and the security procedures - spreading out perishable cargoes of vegetables or seafood on sun-exposed tarmac for inspection - mean that routinely, 10 percent or more of a shipment is spoiled before it even leaves Gaza. The greenhouse project, Taylor said, could push Israelis to change their practices at the crossing. That is not to say there were no challenges: Quote "Every night, people try to break in and steal mangoes and rob the greenhouses," said Mohammed Hijazi, a Palestinian Authority soldier patrolling the farmland with an AK-47 assault rifle. But it does show that any progress that was attempted by reasonable folks were effectively squashed. And clearly Israel has its share of the blame. Trying to rewrite history is not a good way to frame the situation. As for stating the facts as in the news the article above clearly showed more nuance (and I specifically selected Haaretz as a source). Quote Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project. In mid-December, the greenhouses made their first export of 8 tons of peppers. Speaking to the Associated Press about the success of the project, Jabir said, “It makes us proud. This land was a symbol of occupation and many people were doubting our ability to rehabilitate [it], but now we have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.” That hope and pride soon turned to despair. According to Jabir, in order for the project to be successful, it would require moving at least 25 truckloads of produce a day through the Karni crossing. On rare days when the Karni crossing was functioning smoothly he was only able to move 3 truckloads. A crossing that was supposed to be open 24/7, per an international agreement to which Israel was party, was only open sporadically and unpredictably. Israel cited security concerns. The Palestine Economic Development Corporation and its Israeli distribution partner Adafresh were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars every week. While you could claim ignorance on that matter, you clearly cannot do so anymore as looking back it clearly seems that the greenhouses were eventually economically dismantled and not due to senseless destruction as your talking point implies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, MigL said: And makes you wonder how all those rockets got in, but their produce couldn't get out. Well, a rocket is smaller than $120,000 worth of food. The list of rocket attacks shows that the closure of the crossing didn't stop the rocket attacks. Closing a border post to stop rockets seems about as sensible as building a wall to stop Mexicans getting into the US. And none of this has much to do with the OP's question. It is perfectly legitimate to criticise the Israeli government. It is not legitimate to either close down that criticism by labelling opponents of Israel as "anti semitic". Nor is it legitimate to falsely accuse political opponents of "anti semitism" to discredit them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 At best, it possibly invalidates the statement I made about the greenhouses, CharonY. It does not invalidate the need for Israel's security with a blockade of Gaza. I have not called anyone an anti-Semite, particularly since there is no agreement on the meaning of the word, John. I have no opinion on the OP proper, but only got into this discussion because Mistermack and I think that differing standards are applied to Israel and Palestine. Albeit we disagree on which side is being held to a higher standard ( and pilloried for it ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, MigL said: It does not invalidate the need for Israel's security with a blockade of Gaza. Sure, but the element that I was opposed to was to imply that Palestinians just destroyed their own infrastructure implying that Israel had no role in it. While there were mitigating circumstances (such as security concerns), it is hard to argue that their actions did not bolster the extremists and diminished those trying to make a living. Also considering the action of Israel's hardliner, it is difficult not to assume that many of their actions (including expanding settlements in the West Bank which exceeded the area given up in the Gaza strip) was not deliberate to diminish the chances of a two-state solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, MigL said: It does not invalidate the need for Israel's security with a blockade of Gaza. Has this worked? Or has blockade made it easier for those in Gaza weho want to stay in power (I'm not saying they are nice guys) to blame Israel for everything and thus to "justify" the continued use of rockets? 1 hour ago, MigL said: I have not called anyone an anti-Semite, particularly since there is no agreement on the meaning of the word, John. No, but others have and that, you may remember, was the topic of the thread. I was rather hoping we might get back to it some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermack Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) The rocket attacks are no different to the pathetic puny bombing raids that Churchill sent to Germany at the start of WW2. They had no military effect, and Hitler used them to justify his blitz on London. The Israelis are constantly using Hitler's tactics, of always blaming the victims. Funnily enough, nobody blames Churchill now for the German blitz on London. He's Britain's heroic leader. Double standards. Edited August 30, 2018 by mistermack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) It seems to me that it’s safe to say that the VAST majority of Palestinians and Israelis are perfectly fine to live harmoniously as peers and to share an approach of community and brotherhood. Too often, though, a tiny minuscule few in power shape the narrative and own the details the rest of us discuss. The peaks of the pyramid cause the conflict to continue while the base of the pyramid moved on and mentally extinguished the raging fires ages ago. Both sides have done horrible things, but it’s not the “side” in its entirety that is to blame. No. It’s like one dude named Gus and another named Jed that did the things we’re all so consistently and conflictedly wrapped around the wheel about. If only we had a choice about which voices we amplified. If only... Edited August 30, 2018 by iNow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermack Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Israel is like what happens, if Hitler won the war. Let's all work together in harmony. Maybe the Muslims could be encouraged convert to Judaism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 22 hours ago, dimreepr said: I fundamentally disagree, as the more powerful, it's incumbent on Isreal to hold out the olive branch. Right, power and responsibility should have some relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 34 minutes ago, mistermack said: Israel is like what happens, if Hitler won the war. Let's all work together in harmony. Maybe the Muslims could be encouraged convert to Judaism. Are you trying to define antisemitism? 3 minutes ago, Ten oz said: Right, power and responsibility should have some relationship. Indeed otherwise it's just bullying and we wouldn't accept that in our children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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