Itoero Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 Can you believe in evolution and in god? I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang.
Moontanman Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, Itoero said: Can you believe in evolution and in god? I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. Depends on your religion and how seriously you take ancient holy books really. A large number of people seem to have no problem with it... 2
beecee Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 25 minutes ago, Itoero said: Can you believe in evolution and in god? I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. Human kind has seen the need to explain our existence via supernatural means for as long as we can remember. We saw deities/gods in many inanimate objects such as the Sun, Moon, Mountains etc etc etc. Science though has shown that such unsupported mythical supernatural beliefs are not necessary, and that our universe, the stars, our Sun, the planets, and even life can readily be explained by more natural scientific means. Those scientific explanations hold at least up to t+10-43 seconds. From here some install a "god of the gaps" to explain the unknowns particularly with regards to the BB and universal/space/time evolution with regards to before that 10-43 seconds post BB rime frame. So yes, one can believe in a deity of sorts while still accepting what science has explained. Others though realizing the great successes and answers that science has already given us, prefer to keep pursuing the unknown for further evidence and answers. 1
Strange Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Itoero said: Can you believe in evolution and in god? I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. Of course. One of the main people behind the big bang model was a Roman Catholic priest (and astrophysicist), the Reverend Monsignor Georges Lemaitre. One of the most important people in the development of our understanding of inheritance and genetics was Gregor Mendel, an Augustinian monk. Paul Davies is a leading physicist and cosmologist who is also famous (infamous?) for his religious belief. There are many other scientists working in cosmology and evolution who have religious beliefs of various kinds. Modern cosmology and biology are officially and explicitly accepted by most major religions. There is a website biologos that explains how biological evolution and religious faith are not in conflict. Do I need to go on? Basically, there are a small number of loud-mouthed, ignorant people who think their personal opinions/beliefs trump reality. 1
beecee Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Strange said: Paul Davies is a leading physicist and cosmologist who is also famous (infamous?) for his religious belief. And from memory, a recipient of the Templeton prize award, Mother Teresa being also a recipient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templeton_Prize 1 hour ago, Strange said: Basically, there are a small number of loud-mouthed, ignorant people who think their personal opinions/beliefs trump reality. +1
Moontanman Posted July 28, 2018 Posted July 28, 2018 14 minutes ago, beecee said: And from memory, a recipient of the Templeton prize award, Mother Teresa being also a recipient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templeton_Prize +1 I'd hate to think how mortifying it would be to get an award from the same people who thought Mother Teresa deserved one... 3
MathGeek Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) On 7/28/2018 at 4:16 PM, Itoero said: Can you believe in evolution and in god? I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. Do you literally mean "you" (the specific reader)? Or do you mean "one"? I've known a number of people who seem to believe in naturalistic origins (Big Bang, Nebular Theory, Plate Techonics, Evolution, etc.) who also believe in some kind of God, usually some version of the Judeo-Christian God as represented in the Bible. So, yes, I think one can believe in evolution and in God. Me personally? No. I don't see a credible solution to the demarcation problem - where do the facts represented by naturalistic theories of origins end and the facts of the Biblical accounts of God begin? Virgin birth? Parting of the Red Sea? Fire from heaven? Sun standing still over Gibeon? Water into wine? Resurrection of Jesus? I guess I'm looking for some objective criteria to determine which miracles of the Bible to exclude based on science and which to include based on some faith-based reason to keep believing in them. To me the criteria most select seems arbitrary and capricious (and flexible with new information.) It makes more sense to either reject all the miracles described in the Bible or to accept them all. Being an American, most of my experience is with the God of the Bible, but I think logically, the same problem should exist with any faith based on a historical holy book or other sources purporting to describe significant quantities of miracles. Edited July 30, 2018 by MathGeek 1
Itoero Posted July 30, 2018 Author Posted July 30, 2018 On 28/07/2018 at 11:35 PM, Strange said: There is a website biologos that explains how biological evolution and religious faith are not in conflict. I rather mean if there are theists that believe in all evolution-related science without inventing 'evidence'. A lot of old-earth creationist Christians don't believe in abiogenesis, believe in a guided evolution and invent evidence for God in cosmology. There are many Christians like Hugh Ross which use science to invent evidence for God...they are Christian apologetics. Hugh Ross is a Canadian astrophysicist.https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross/ 4 hours ago, MathGeek said: Do you literally mean "you" (the specific reader)? Or do you mean "one"? I mean 'one' but people are free to post there own beliefs. 1
zapatos Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Itoero said: I rather mean if there are theists that believe in all evolution-related science without inventing 'evidence'. The Catholic church fully supports Evolution Theory so that is about 1.2 billion people who potentially believe in Evolution and God. 1
Strange Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 25 minutes ago, Itoero said: I rather mean if there are theists that believe in all evolution-related science without inventing 'evidence'. All of the religious evolutionary biologists (including those behind that web site). What evidence do you claim they are inventing? That is a pretty libellous claim. I hope you can defend it. 26 minutes ago, Itoero said: A lot of old-earth creationist Christians don't believe in abiogenesis, believe in a guided evolution and invent evidence for God in cosmology. As I said, there're a small number of people who prefer their personal interpretation of myth over reality. I even heard one person say that if reality contradicts the Bible then it is reality that is wrong. How deluded do you have to be to think that? 33 minutes ago, Itoero said: There are many Christians like Hugh Ross which use science to invent evidence for God...they are Christian apologetics. Hugh Ross is a Canadian astrophysicist.https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/the-dubious-apologetics-of-hugh-ross/ I'm not entirely sure how that is relevant. He is religious and accepts the Big Bang model. The fact he tries to use that as evidence for his idea of god doesn't alter that. Some people try to use the existence of human consciousness or creativity as evidence for god. That doesn't mean they don't accept consciousness or creativity; quite the reverse in fact. So I don't see the point of this. (Although it was quite interesting to see thoughtful Christians criticising someone misusing science to justify their belief. Hey! That's my job!) 24 minutes ago, zapatos said: The Catholic church fully supports Evolution Theory so that is about 1.2 billion people who potentially believe in Evolution and God. Yeah. Just like none of them use contraception...
zapatos Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, Strange said: Yeah. Just like none of them use contraception... As iNow has pointed out many times, people never let God's words get in the way of what people think God says.
Itoero Posted July 31, 2018 Author Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, Strange said: All of the religious evolutionary biologists (including those behind that web site). What evidence do you claim they are inventing? That is a pretty libellous claim. I hope you can defend it. There is a lot more then the videos I link. They use mostly mathematical logic and cosmology-related misconceptions to pretend the existence of god is scientific fact. https://youtu.be/hlmI1_xIRs0 https://youtu.be/_Be4l2OS1_ghttps://youtu.be/J8bxxqytndg https://youtu.be/JaCfz6JWGrA https://youtu.be/Er9D00DXQQs 21 hours ago, zapatos said: The Catholic church fully supports Evolution Theory so that is about 1.2 billion people who potentially believe in Evolution and God. In the evolution theory there is no room for anything supernatural. Every catechist believes in supernatural stuff so it's impossible for them to believe in the entire evolution theory. I don't mean the evolution theory, I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. 21 hours ago, Strange said: As I said, there're a small number of people who prefer their personal interpretation of myth over reality. I even heard one person say that if reality contradicts the Bible then it is reality that is wrong. How deluded do you have to be to think that Indoctrination is a strong tool...I suppose. It reminds me of Kurt Wise. " even if all the evidence in the universe flatly contradicted Scripture, and even if he had reached the point of admitting this to himself, he would still take his stand on Scripture and deny the evidence" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wise#Views_and_criticism 21 hours ago, Strange said: 'm not entirely sure how that is relevant. He is religious and accepts the Big Bang model. The fact he tries to use that as evidence for his idea of god doesn't alter that. Some people try to use the existence of human consciousness or creativity as evidence for god. That doesn't mean they don't accept consciousness or creativity; quite the reverse in fact. So I don't see the point of this. (Although it was quite interesting to see thoughtful Christians criticising someone misusing science to justify their belief. Hey! That's my job!) In the world of science there is no room for supernatural belief. Science is in a sense about not knowing what you don't know. Christians fill in (imaginary) gaps with imaginary science. A lot of the so called evidence for god's existence just shows there are gaps in science. A scientist let such a gap open but Christians tend to fill those gaps with super natural stuff. For example: Many Christians think biological evolution can't form this complexity,(they create a gap) so they say God guided evolution.,While they don't really deny the evolution theory, they change it. The same for the big bang model. Edited July 31, 2018 by Itoero
Moontanman Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, Itoero said: There is a lot more then the videos I link. They use mostly mathematical logic and cosmology-related misconceptions to pretend the existence of god is scientific fact. https://youtu.be/hlmI1_xIRs0 https://youtu.be/_Be4l2OS1_ghttps://youtu.be/J8bxxqytndg https://youtu.be/JaCfz6JWGrA https://youtu.be/Er9D00DXQQs In the evolution theory there is no room for anything supernatural. Every catechist believes in supernatural stuff so it's impossible for them to believe in the entire evolution theory. I don't mean the evolution theory, I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. Indoctrination is a strong tool...I suppose. It reminds me of Kurt Wise. " even if all the evidence in the universe flatly contradicted Scripture, and even if he had reached the point of admitting this to himself, he would still take his stand on Scripture and deny the evidence" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wise#Views_and_criticism In the world of science there is no room for supernatural belief. Science is in a sense about not knowing what you don't know. Christians fill in (imaginary) gaps with imaginary science. A lot of the so called evidence for god's existence just shows there are gaps in science. A scientist let such a gap open but Christians tend to fill those gaps with super natural stuff. For example: Many Christians think biological evolution can't form this complexity,(they create a gap) so they say God did it, while they don't really deny the evolution theory, they change it. The same for the big bang model. While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying I'm not sure I understand the idea of the BB being somehow part of evolution. Sounds a bit like the creationist 7 steps of evolution. Can you clarify a bit?
zapatos Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, Itoero said: In the evolution theory there is no room for anything supernatural. Every catechist believes in supernatural stuff so it's impossible for them to believe in the entire evolution theory. I don't mean the evolution theory, I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. First, I don't know what you mean when you say "the evolution that started at the Big Bang". Nowhere in Evolution does it say you cannot believe in anything supernatural. How would believing in ghosts make it impossible for me to believe in Evolution? 1
DrP Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 On 28/07/2018 at 9:25 PM, Moontanman said: Depends on your religion and how seriously you take ancient holy books really. A large number of people seem to have no problem with it... Yea - I know people believe Evolution and the bible... but I think they are lying to themselves. It's as though god explains everything... until science shows how it really is then the 'god of the gaps' that was pointed out above somewhere shrinks further. I used to be a Christian - so I believed the bible. After many years of the gaps getting smaller and smaller I had to drop it - it was getting ridiculous. imo you can't believe the bible AND science - too many contradictions. So - my opinion is - you CAN believe in god and evolution.... but not The Bible and evolution unless you do not under stand one or the other because they totally contradict.
dimreepr Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 14 minutes ago, DrP said: So - my opinion is - you CAN believe in god and evolution.... but not The Bible and evolution unless you do not under stand one or the other because they totally contradict. That very much depends on what you believe, you read...
zapatos Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, DrP said: So - my opinion is - you CAN believe in god and evolution.... but not The Bible and evolution unless you do not under stand one or the other because they totally contradict. But there is real data supporting the fact that people DO believe in the Bible and evolution. The Pope for example. The Bible does NOT contradict evolution unless you interpret the Bible to contradict evolution. 2
Strange Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 54 minutes ago, Itoero said: There is a lot more then the videos I link. They use mostly mathematical logic and cosmology-related misconceptions to pretend the existence of god is scientific fact. But that is a different thing. You are moving the goalposts or changing the subject. They are religious and accept the theory of evolution. That was your original question. The fact that they try and use the science to rationalise their beliefs is irrelevant. 55 minutes ago, Itoero said: In the evolution theory there is no room for anything supernatural. Every catechist believes in supernatural stuff so it's impossible for them to believe in the entire evolution theory. Nonsense. That would only be true the "supernatural stuff" included contradictions of evolution. As the Church officially supports (*) and accepts the science, that can't be true. You are, in effect, saying that because they believe some supernatural things that they can't believe anything non-supernatural. That is completely illogical. You seem to be letting your dislike of religion cloud your thinking. Again. Quote I don't mean the evolution theory, I mean the evolution that started at the Big Bang. I'm not sure how that is relevant. There isn't really much connection between the two theories. But they are both accepted by most mainstream churches and by many religious people. 1 hour ago, Itoero said: Indoctrination is a strong tool...I suppose. It reminds me of Kurt Wise. " even if all the evidence in the universe flatly contradicted Scripture, and even if he had reached the point of admitting this to himself, he would still take his stand on Scripture and deny the evidence" So what. We know there are people who deny various scientific theories. Sometimes because of what they believe. Sometimes because they have come up with their own pet crackpot theory. But that is irrelevant to the question you asked. 1 hour ago, Itoero said: In the world of science there is no room for supernatural belief. That is true of science but not scientists. 1 hour ago, Itoero said: Christians fill in (imaginary) gaps with imaginary science. A lot of the so called evidence for god's existence just shows there are gaps in science. A scientist let such a gap open but Christians tend to fill those gaps with super natural stuff. For example: Many Christians think biological evolution can't form this complexity,(they create a gap) so they say God guided evolution.,While they don't really deny the evolution theory, they change it. The same for the big bang model. Some Christians think like that and some don't. Again, not really relevant to the question you asked. Your question is, I think, answered. (The answer was "yes".) Is this now just going to turn into another irrational "Itoero Hates Religion" thread? If so, we can ask the mods to close it now. 1
Moontanman Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 5 hours ago, zapatos said: But there is real data supporting the fact that people DO believe in the Bible and evolution. The Pope for example. The Bible does NOT contradict evolution unless you interpret the Bible to contradict evolution. Reality is not reflected in the Bible, for a person to believe the Bible and science requires interpretational twists of both. If you take the Bible at face value one of the first things that should stand out is that nothing.. and I mean nothing, the Bible asserts about reality that can be tested is true. Why should we believe in any of it? Without interpretation the Bible does indeed contradict evolution. 1
zapatos Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 46 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Without interpretation the Bible does indeed contradict evolution. Would you mind telling me which part specifically?
Moontanman Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 1 hour ago, zapatos said: Would you mind telling me which part specifically? Genesis is the start and from then on everything the Bible says about the natural world can be shown to be wrong. From the account in genesis of a six day creation of everything just the way it is today to Noah's flood and the animals two by two, to allowing farm animals to mate in front of striped sticks to make the offspring striped. 1
zapatos Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 25 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Genesis is the start and from then on everything the Bible says about the natural world can be shown to be wrong. From the account in genesis of a six day creation of everything just the way it is today to Noah's flood and the animals two by two, to allowing farm animals to mate in front of striped sticks to make the offspring striped. I'm wondering why the Catholic Church says they have no problem with Evolution. Do you think maybe because they don't take the Bible literally? They certainly 'believe' in the Bible.
Moontanman Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, zapatos said: I'm wondering why the Catholic Church says they have no problem with Evolution. Do you think maybe because they don't take the Bible literally? They certainly 'believe' in the Bible. I'm not sure understand it either.
zapatos Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Moontanman said: I'm not sure understand it either. I've been reading up on it and the church accepts Evolution, and believes god created all things, but I can find no reference to reconciling Genesis and Evolution. The church also seems to allow Catholics to make up their own mind about whether or not they want to believe in Creationism. Catholic schools even teach Evolution. It's as if the church is smart enough to realize that making a definitive statement will only cause them trouble, and so instead metaphorically nod and say 'it's a mystery'.
Bender Posted August 1, 2018 Posted August 1, 2018 5 hours ago, zapatos said: I'm wondering why the Catholic Church says they have no problem with Evolution. Do you think maybe because they don't take the Bible literally? They certainly 'believe' in the Bible. I have been raised as Catholic: the old testament is hardly dealt with and presented more as stories rather than true, and hell and the devil didn't exist. The focus was on the new testament, which was unquestionably true. I guess it depends greatly on persons involved and on location. I live in one of the least religious countries in the world, so any hard stance would make the Church loose any support they still have. Today only about 50% of children in Catholic schools are baptised.
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