If (illicit) drugs were legal.

[CharonY]

58 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Maybe some chronic pain, chronic pain is not a single thing. I've been dealing with this for more than 20 years, if there is something I haven't hung my hat on only to be dissipointed I do not know what it could be...

The lack of respect I get, even from physicians, is overwhelming. A couple years ago I developed a bone infection in my lower jaw, it swelled up over several days to the point of looking like I had a baseball emerging from my face.  The pain was impossible to deal with but because I am a chronic pain patent it took me two weeks of agony before I was finally hospitalised. I came very close to ending my suffering in a very final way after days of switching from being unconscious to log hours of being crazy crying and totally unable to to take care of myself. All because I am a chronic pain patient.

Doctors have cut on me without even a local because I am a chronic pain patient.

I suffered for three months with a face wound from surgery that wouldn't heal because the doc thought I was putting on to get drugs then they discovered they had left several inches of tubing in my face that was causing me to not heal and be in extreme pain all because I was a chronic pain patient and therefore could not be trusted to report my situation accurately. 

I am currently having problems getting lawyers to give me the time of day on this issue because... I am a chronic pain patient and not any more than a junky. Yes it makes me angry beyond description but even that is just my chronic pain scam, according to the docs, as I try to get more drugs. 

I have never sought out drugs and I have stopped taking anything stronger than the occasional hydrocodone which are all prescribed to me by a doctor that monitors me very closely to make sure I am not taking drugs to get high yet my pain remains and often overwhelms me in my day to day life.   

What you describe is part of the problem, especially your first sentence. The classic approach to pain is to treat everyone the same (or just use a pain chart) and expend drugs and perhaps therapy accordingly. Based on what I am hearing from pain specialists (from infrequent meetings) is the desire to establish more individualized approaches trying to figure out sources and individualized therapies that reduce pain. 

The reason being that newer research has shown a vast variance in terms of how patients with certain types of pain respond to treatment and pain management. The limitations here are obviously that one needs to find a specialist who makes the effort to establish such plans, with an understanding that especially for chronic treatments a rapport has to be established over time.

However, that approach does not work well with how most physicians work, so there are incredibly barriers in practice. Rather unfortunately, it does not seem to be changing in the short run. Having new drugs will allow us to proceed with the old model, but there is quite a progressive movement among medical scientist and medical professionals who are aiming at larger overhauls.

[Mayday_Melodies]

I think the life and death tolls relating to illicit drugs would average about the same. 

Those who abuse them now will continue on with it, and probably new abusers will arise. 

But those who need them for medical reasons will (hopefully) heal. 

[Ptrest]

Drugs are not a problem in the wide sense of this issue but, considering drug abuse and illegal use of hard drugs, it is huge problem in the social dimension. Uncontrollable use of drugs leads to addiction which affects one's physical as well as mental health. People start craving, killing, robbing, and dying on the gridiron. We have not enough rehabs to treat these people, and legalization of the illegal drugs makes everything even worse. Moreover, the cost of addiction treatment is high, free rehabs are rare (advertising link removed per rule 2.7). It's obvious that no legalization of drugs is not the best idea. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Phi for All
No advertising, please

[peterwlocke]

well, i classify hard drugs as they can easily kill you.(not over a long time). but i have never done drugs .

[Huckleberry of Yore]

Having enjoyed pot a handful of times in college (mid 80s), about 20 years ago on layover in Amsterdam I went to the coffee shop and asked for a joint.  It was my birthday.  Got lots of food and went to my hotel room to have fun.  Huge disaster, after an intensely painful hour, I was finally able to summon a doctor.  I am very fortunate I did not jump out the fifth story window.

But my take on drugs is: legalize them all, don't tax them, and NOBODY USE THEM.  For me, keep your drugs, I'll stick to drinking beer.

[CharonY]

27 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said:

For me, keep your drugs, I'll stick to drinking beer.

Which is interesting as alcohol is generally speaking a more dangerous drug, in terms of adverse effects.

[Huckleberry of Yore]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

Which is interesting as alcohol is generally speaking a more dangerous drug, in terms of adverse effects.

Not in my case.  However, studies have linked THC to mental health issues, such as schizophrenia.  Also THC is characterized to be a "mild" hallucinogen ala LSD.  I took just two drags on that joint and nearly committed suicide; also, I have no way of knowing what the long term effects may be.  If I drank two shots of everclear, I'd likely vomit and/or pass out.  The old saying must apply to me: reality is for people that can't handle drugs.   

[CharonY]

15 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said:

Not in my case.  However, studies have linked THC to mental health issues, such as schizophrenia.  Also THC is characterized to be a "mild" hallucinogen ala LSD.  I took just two drags on that joint and nearly committed suicide; also, I have no way of knowing what the long term effects may be.  If I drank two shots of everclear, I'd likely vomit and/or pass out.  The old saying must apply to me: reality is for people that can't handle drugs.   

Yes, though the schizophrenia link is a bit uncertain, there is probably a better correlation with psychoses. That being said, all the negatives are also applicable to alcohol. It is also a psychoactive substance, has more dangerous intoxication effects, is more addictive and there is a stronger association with long-term alcohol consume with morbidity than with cannabis. This is not to say that the latter is entirely harmless. However, it does mean that you underestimate the dangers of alcohol (most likely due to familiarity) if you do not consider it a drug.

Forgot to add (and perhaps it is a bit nitpicky, but...), cannabis is not considered a hallucinogen. Under controlled settings only purified THC at high concentration were able to elicit something that was similar to hallucinations, but brain activity was different from what one would normally consider hallucinogens (such as the mentioned LSD). I.e. under regular doses hallucinations are not typical and whatever happens at higher dosages is quite different from the effects of psychodelic drugs. 

[StringJunky]

16 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said:

Not in my case.  However, studies have linked THC to mental health issues, such as schizophrenia.  Also THC is characterized to be a "mild" hallucinogen ala LSD.  I took just two drags on that joint and nearly committed suicide; also, I have no way of knowing what the long term effects may be.  If I drank two shots of everclear, I'd likely vomit and/or pass out.  The old saying must apply to me: reality is for people that can't handle drugs.   

No doubt you selected a really strong THC strain in the shop and then did it on your own... not a recipe for a relaxed evening.

[Huckleberry of Yore]

11 minutes ago, CharonY said:

you do not consider it a drug

To be clear, I didn't make that claim.

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

No doubt you selected a really strong THC strain in the shop and then did it on your own... not a recipe for a relaxed evening.

I think the fellow across the counter gunned for me, probably had a good laugh.  I was so gullible, I thought there was just pot, not knowing there were various strains/strengths.  So I learned several lessons from that experience.

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry of Yore said:

To be clear, I didn't make that claim.

Fair enough. The way you phrased seemed to make a strong distinction between cannabis and alcohol.

 

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

No doubt you selected a really strong THC strain in the shop and then did it on your own... not a recipe for a relaxed evening.

There is actually an interesting body of research looking into the interface between alcohol, cannabis, psychoses and suicide risk. The data is tricky as there is strong correlation between these elements (i.e. folks suffering from psychoses often also drink and/or consume weed) and it is unclear whether there is a mechanistic link. 

However generally weed and alcohol seem to either correlate rather strongly with psychotic bouts or they may a factor increasing its risk. That being said, it does sound like an accidental overdose, although it is more common with oral consumption or in combination with other drugs (such as alcohol). The good think is that for the most part recovery is fairly swift and does not carry the risk as e.g. passing out from alcohol (unless, of course both were consumed).

[StringJunky]

10 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said:

To be clear, I didn't make that claim.

It was implicit in this statement of yours:

Quote

The old saying must apply to me: reality is for people that can't handle drugs.   

 

10 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said:

I think the fellow across the counter gunned for me, probably had a good laugh.  I was so gullible, I thought there was just pot, not knowing there were various strains/strengths.  So I learned several lessons from that experience.

That explains it. If you'd had the what-was-the-usual naturally grown grass or hash, you'd have chilled out.

Edited January 29, 2019 by StringJunky

[Huckleberry of Yore]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

The way you phrased seemed to make a strong distinction between cannabis and alcohol.

Well, I do.  I enjoy drinking beer, regularly.  My ancestors apparently adapted to it, so I can enjoy it so far without problems.  As my ancestors unfortunately also gave me a tendency for cancer, it is conceivable that I may at some point be prescribed cannabis.  Based on my experience I would reject it, but that might change.

3 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

t was implicit in this statement of yours:

Quote

The old saying must apply to me: reality is for people that can't handle drugs.   

 

Ok, I understand.  I think the "old saying" is usually applied to drugs other than alcohol, but I take your point.

5 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

you'd have chilled out

You may be right.  However, I would point out that in my very limited experience with pot in the 80s I did experience anxiety attacks for the first time, and on at last one occasion I became very paranoid after smoking a little bit of weed.  (Thought the cops were hiding outside.)  I have family members that have reported similar outcomes.  It maybe that different genetic backgrounds react differently.   Again, refer to the "old saying".

 

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Fair enough. The way you phrased seemed to make a strong distinction between cannabis and alcohol.

 

There is actually an interesting body of research looking into the interface between alcohol, cannabis, psychoses and suicide risk. The data is tricky as there is strong correlation between these elements (i.e. folks suffering from psychoses often also drink and/or consume weed) and it is unclear whether there is a mechanistic link. 

However generally weed and alcohol seem to either correlate rather strongly with psychotic bouts or they may a factor increasing its risk. That being said, it does sound like an accidental overdose, although it is more common with oral consumption or in combination with other drugs (such as alcohol). The good think is that for the most part recovery is fairly swift and does not carry the risk as e.g. passing out from alcohol (unless, of course both were consumed).

Polydrug use probably causes conflicting psychological effects which might exacerbate a person that tends towards mental issues, I guess.

[Huckleberry of Yore]

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Polydrug use probably causes conflicting

I'd mention too that when I had my bad reaction to pot in Amsterdam, I had not been drinking.

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

Polydrug use probably causes conflicting psychological effects which might exacerbate a person that tends towards mental issues, I guess

It is quite unclear. The issue is that folks with psychological issues also have the tendency to consume drugs. So it is a bit of the chicken or egg problem. 

With regard to alcohol, there does not seem to be  good correlation between genetic markers and overall morbidity (i.e. it is unclear whether there are folks more resistant to adverse health effects). There may be a genetic component to addiction (but they are only based on association studies and need more work). But even there, behavioural markers (e.g. how much alcohol is consumed) seemed to be more predictive than the genetic ones.

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, Huckleberry of Yore said:

I'd mention too that when I had my bad reaction to pot in Amsterdam, I had not been drinking.

What you had was too strong and you are not comfortable with it anyway.

8 minutes ago, CharonY said:

It is quite unclear. The issue is that folks with psychological issues also have the tendency to consume drugs. So it is a bit of the chicken or egg problem. 

With regard to alcohol, there does not seem to be  good correlation between genetic markers and overall morbidity (i.e. it is unclear whether there are folks more resistant to adverse health effects). There may be a genetic component to addiction (but they are only based on association studies and need more work). But even there, behavioural markers (e.g. how much alcohol is consumed) seemed to be more predictive than the genetic ones.

Yes, it's probably the case that the majority of people that take drugs are self-medicating under the guise of 'recreational use'. I used to know a schizophrenic that would seek out hallucinogenics like LSD, which I could never understand, given his condition.

Edited January 29, 2019 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

19 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Yes, it's probably the case that the majority of people that take drugs are self-medicating under the guise of 'recreational use'. I used to know a schizophrenic that would seek out hallucinogenics like LSD, which I could never understand, given his condition.

That in itself is an interesting question. The two most common abused substances in vulnerable populations are alcohol and cannabis and it is more common in men than in women. There are a variety of hypotheses, but in the case of self-medication it appears that for folks suffering from depressive symptoms cannabis offers a short-term relief effect via the dopaminergic system. The issue is that long-term it leads to more issues. 

[StringJunky]

7 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That in itself is an interesting question. The two most common abused substances in vulnerable populations are alcohol and cannabis and it is more common in men than in women. There are a variety of hypotheses, but in the case of self-medication it appears that for folks suffering from depressive symptoms cannabis offers a short-term relief effect via the dopaminergic system. The issue is that long-term it leads to more issues. 

Probably, it's an avoidance strategy, taking drugs. For  the period of intoxication, one doesn't have to think about prevailing personal issues. You've got the additive effects of persistent avoidance plus the long-term physiological effects on mood and memory etc to deal with as well.

[Huckleberry of Yore]

A close acquaintance suffers from occasional but severe depression where he essentially craves death.  He says, though, alcohol provides immediate relief.  He's gone through a long list of antidepressants most of which made things worse.  Last I heard he thought he found one that works for him, but haven't touched base to see how things are progressing.

[Raider5678]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Yes, it's probably the case that the majority of people that take drugs are self-medicating under the guise of 'recreational use'.

Potentially.

In the case of depression, however, depression affects women more, so I feel like if depression was a major driving factor then we'd see higher drug use in women. Or at least less of a disparity between male and female drug use.

[CharonY]

On 1/29/2019 at 5:39 PM, StringJunky said:

Probably, it's an avoidance strategy, taking drugs. For  the period of intoxication, one doesn't have to think about prevailing personal issues. You've got the additive effects of persistent avoidance plus the long-term physiological effects on mood and memory etc to deal with as well.

Depends a lot on the types of drugs. Pain medication are highly connected to opioid abuse. 

 

On 1/29/2019 at 7:14 PM, Raider5678 said:

Potentially.

In the case of depression, however, depression affects women more, so I feel like if depression was a major driving factor then we'd see higher drug use in women. Or at least less of a disparity between male and female drug use.

There is a general difference in frequency of drug abuse across the board (though the gap is diminishing). It appears that there are societal issues resulting in lower rates of drug abuse in women.

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

Depends a lot on the types of drugs. Pain medication are highly connected to opioid abuse. 

Do you think the US would have this problem if it had a system like the UK? It seems to me the private model encourages drug pushing by drug company reps at the GP level.

[CharonY]

10 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Do you think the US would have this problem if it had a system like the UK? It seems to me the private model encourages drug pushing by drug company reps at the GP level.

There is preliminary evidence linking spending of pain killer manufacturer with increased use of pain killers and increased drug abuse. The current rate are about triple that of the UK, so there is at least some indication that public system may be a bit better. That being said, even in public systems there was probably oversubscription of pain killers. It was treated as an easy fix rather than a last resort approach. Only recently there folks are rethinking the issue in the face of overdose deaths.