DrP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 16 hours ago, Theredbarron said: The problem with eliminating air flow is that air is effected by gravity. So its going to flow no matter how I make this even if I seal if all up it will pull air based upon what theory your using correct? It isn't gravity generated by your spinning mass that pulls on the tissue paper. It is the movement of air displaced by your spinning parts as pointed out by several above. The air around your spinning parts is disturbed by the movement. Like a spoon stirring a drink. The air outside then moves in to fill the space left by the displaced air - you get movement of air.... which is what you are seeing with the movement of the tissue. The air is not displaced from the moving parts due to gravity - the air molecules are physically bashed out of the way by the moving mass. Do it in a vacuum and nothing will happen as you will remove the moving air which is pushing on the tissue.
Ghideon Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, koti said: I think its cool youre doing the experiments and I fully support you in this. I agree. And of course I do not think generated gravity is part of the explanation for the phenomenon in the movie (until all other causes have been eliminated by using proper scientific methods). Idea: If the machine generates gravity, it should have a greater effect on a massive object. If you test with a brick, does it move across the table? 1
DrP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 Just now, Ghideon said: If you test with a brick, does it move across the table? I think we all know the answer to that one already.
swansont Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Theredbarron said: Can you describe what you mean by air flow? I know it sound dumb but I dont want to assume what you mean because no air is going out the other side. Air that is moving. Anywhere, for any reason other than your conjecture. You have moving parts, which cause air to move. Equipment heats up, which causes convection, which is air moving. Whatever. You have to eliminate all possibilities except your mechanism. 10 hours ago, Theredbarron said: Your right. So I'm not going to bring up some cliché phrasing to try to reason with you. How is someone supposed to demonstrate a theory to people if all they do is throw other people words at me just because of what they are used to. Lets call it centripetal force if it upsets you that much to expect perfection on the first try. People are the reason why this type of stuff gets missed as well. I will gladly say its not gravity. I still have a question thought if you could take a crack at it. How is it doing what its doing? I never said I had all the answers. I also never said all other theory are incorrect as well. It's one thing to ask, "What is going on here?" but quite another to say, "It's gravity that's doing this." Very different situations. 10 hours ago, Theredbarron said: Its rather the misunderstanding of some early observations surrounded by not so modern technology. I do not know anyone in person that is interested in this type of stuff and or could even understand it. If everyone here has an opinion then there are no facts to be found here is there? Im sorry I didn't come up with and awesome cup warmer or something. If it was a cup warmer we wouldn't care how it worked, as long as it warmed the cup. But if you said it warmed the cup by magic, well, then, we'd have questions. 10 hours ago, Theredbarron said: This is what I've got. No matter how ridiculous it sounds or looks it does not exclude it. I didn't accidently make this happen. I used a theory that just happen to pop up and made me curious. Its not just a " because this is wrong its this type theory". It was "why is this so similar to this type of theory" at first. Then I notice a few other things that correlate. So I started coming up with logic that I know works likes in electricity "opposites attract". I went down that road of what the opposite of gravity is deal. I did find something. I found that something is always occupying space in order for it to be considered space. Then I noticed that all gravity in our cosmos is observed only in motion to include whats creating it. No, gravity is not only observed in motion. Ever stand on a scale? And we could eliminate gravity as the cause in your device. Measure how quickly the paper towel moves, and you could estimate the acceleration involved. It's going to be substantial. Then confirm that your device does not have any effect on more massive objects. Only lighter ones, that are affected by air currents.
DanMP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 12 hours ago, Theredbarron said: Just put a wooden board between the black tube and the paper. Air flow and electrostatic pull should be stopped or diminished while the gravitational pull should remain the same. Do that and then come back. Otherwise it is just wasting of our time.
Theredbarron Posted August 21, 2018 Author Posted August 21, 2018 6 hours ago, beecee said: You cant even give me something to test this with? All you have is a bunch of words making you sound smart. My theory actually supports all that crap that you keep telling me just no the way your think. so stop assuming and prove me wrong. or stop talking. 2 hours ago, DanMP said: Just put a wooden board between the black tube and the paper. Air flow and electrostatic pull should be stopped or diminished while the gravitational pull should remain the same. Do that and then come back. Otherwise it is just wasting of our time. I understand this logic. The only deal with that is its solely based upon another theory then mine. There is a reason why it doesn't pull through matter at this level of intensity. can magnets go through everything at all levels of intensity.? 4 hours ago, DrP said: I think we all know the answer to that one already. is a brick in comparison to a paper towel? so its pretty obvious then now isn't it. 3 hours ago, swansont said: Air that is moving. Anywhere, for any reason other than your conjecture. You have moving parts, which cause air to move. Equipment heats up, which causes convection, which is air moving. Whatever. You have to eliminate all possibilities except your mechanism. It's one thing to ask, "What is going on here?" but quite another to say, "It's gravity that's doing this." Very different situations. If it was a cup warmer we wouldn't care how it worked, as long as it warmed the cup. But if you said it warmed the cup by magic, well, then, we'd have questions. No, gravity is not only observed in motion. Ever stand on a scale? And we could eliminate gravity as the cause in your device. Measure how quickly the paper towel moves, and you could estimate the acceleration involved. It's going to be substantial. Then confirm that your device does not have any effect on more massive objects. Only lighter ones, that are affected by air currents. is that scale moving on the surface of earth? so now what are the result sense the scale that is supposed to be sitting still is moving at 1k mph. gravity effects air with my theory so yes the air is going to move just like it would anywhere else except that high pressure is supposed to move to low pressure yet all the air wants to in the tube and not out. sounds like a low pressure are with heat somehow. so now the air is doing the opposite of what it normally does in our environment. So yes the molecule in the air like nitrogen and oxygen have weight just like everything else. Are they excluded for what your understanding of gravity is? 5 hours ago, koti said: Look man, I’m assuming you’re not some nutcase trying to hoax people on youtube and you’re genuinely interested in finding things out. Am I right assuming that? If that is the case, 1. Ground the pipe (if its metal, if its PVC you wont be able to) Tape a bare wire to the pipe and the other end connect to the ground (your vice or some other big chunk of metal should be enough for this purpose) You can also use an ESD set if you have one around the shop. 2. Use your multimeter to check for presence of static charge. Set it to measure „amperes” and be sure your meter has an option to retain a reading as the neasured discharge will take a microsecond or so only. Use tape to attach the myltimeter probes to the pipe. If the pioe is PVC it probably won’t work. Practise by rubbing a sweater or your bare feet on a carpet and measure that with your multimeter to get a readout by using the probes on your hands. 3. Use a feather instead of the paper to get a better idea of where and how much of air movement occurs. There might actually be both factors playing a role here at the same time - electromagnetism and air movement. 4. Read the wikipedia article I linked you to on gravity. Come up with questions and post them here, there are PHD physicists in this very thread who will answer all the questions you have, you can learn a lot from them. 5. Forget about hope you discovered how to „generate gravity” There is no way that could have happened, learn the basics of gravity what it is and how it interacts and you will laugh yourself a year later at this whole thing. I think its cool youre doing the experiments and I fully support you in this. Providing you’re not a nutcase or deliberately trying to find out how to hoax people. Thank you. I am fully aware of nothing coming from this. I dont even care if its gravity but there's only one way to know for sure no matter how ridiculous it seems. I am defiantly going to use this information and try it out though. Its pretty fun. I'm not even involved in the science world at all with my life. I dont even have the background to show. I just dont want to leave any stones unturned no matter what. Nobody is going to do this for me so here I am. I did have a quick questing though. would making a wheel that does not use my theory replicate the static? -3
DrP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 25 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: is a brick in comparison to a paper towel? so its pretty obvious then now isn't it. A brick, being heavier than a paper towel, would be effected by gravity more than the towel. The attractive force between 2 objects is equal to a mix of constants multiplied by the mass of each object divided by the square of the distance between the objects. 25 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: I dont even care if its gravity.... It isn't. 29 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: gravity effects air with my theory Of course gravity effects the air - it has mass, so it is attracted to other things that have mass. This is why we have air pressure here on the ground - because the air is attracted to the earth via gravity and the molecules are all piled on top of each other pushing down (due to the gravity).
Strange Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 15 hours ago, Theredbarron said: See that quote at the bottom “Facts don’t come naturally. Drama and opinions do. Factual knowledge has to be learned.” No one told you it was going to be pretty. Maybe you just cant comprehend it. If its too much for you then dont act like your better then it. You dont even know my theory yet your claiming it vague. It is nothing to do with whether I can comprehend it or not. You have not presented a model and you have not presented any evidence that supports that model. I didn't say your theory is vague. I said what you have presented here is very vague. If you have a theory (ie. a mathematical mode) then present it. Then we can discuss the evidence for and against it. As it is you have mode some vague statements about air and shown a video of a very unconvincing demonstration. 15 hours ago, Theredbarron said: I'm not sure if you know this but air is matter and that's what its attracting Fine. But the important thing is to find out why it is attracting the air. You claim it is because of gravity. In order to convince others of that you need to eliminate all other possible causes. One is that the device in the tube is acting like a fan and (mechanically) pulling the air in. To reduce the possibility of that being a reason, just seal the end of the tube and see what happens. If it is gravity, then the air will still be attracted to it. 15 hours ago, Theredbarron said: Its still producing that force that you see. What we see is you waving a paper towel around. You will need something much more credible to convince anyone there is actually any force or air movement. 15 hours ago, Theredbarron said: If its not gravity then what is it? It could be all sorts of things. Given what we know, artificial gravity would be low on the list of possibilities. Someone said "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence." I am not going to convinced that someone has invented antigravity by a video of someone waving a piece of paper around. (Incidentally, videos are a very poor form of evidence. Look at all those videos of Penn and Teller doing "impossible" things. They are all tricks. I am NOT saying that you are trying to trick us. I understand you are genuine and have convinced yourself. I am just trying to help you understand what you need to do in order to convince others. 15 hours ago, Theredbarron said: I dont care what people believe in but if they have a question and think it will prove or shed light on something based on there belief or logic then I'm all ears. My question is: what happens if you eliminate the possibility of mechanical movement of the air by covering the end of the tube?
Theredbarron Posted August 21, 2018 Author Posted August 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, DrP said: A brick, being heavier than a paper towel, would be effected by gravity more than the towel. The attractive force between 2 objects is equal to a mix of constants multiplied by the mass of each object divided by the square of the distance between the objects. Let me clarify what I meant. I'm on earth and earth has gravity. The gravity of earth is stronger then my machine. So my machine would have to be strong enough to oppose earths gravity. That's what I meant by weight.
Strange Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Theredbarron said: How is someone supposed to demonstrate a theory to people Show the mathematical model. Show the predictions of the mathematical model. Show an experiment and/or measurements that are consistent with the predictions of the model. Provide enough detail of the experimental method to convince people that you have taken sufficient care to eliminate alternative explanations and to reduce the errors in your measurements. Ideally get other people to reproduce the experiments. This is basic science. Edited August 21, 2018 by Strange
DrP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 Just now, Theredbarron said: Let me clarify what I meant. I'm on earth and earth has gravity. The gravity of earth is stronger then my machine. So my machine would have to be strong enough to oppose earths gravity. That's what I meant by weight. I don't see what that has to do with the paper towel. I am not speculating here - I am telling you flat that it is NOT gravity. You saw an effect (the towel move) and are wondering what has caused it. You came to this site for an opinion or an explanation. We, here at this SCIENCE site, already know what is going on because we are scientists and have studied science all our lives. Gravity is well understood up to a point.... and has nothing to do with the effect you observed. We are TELLING you, not just brandishing ideas about, that that movement of the towel is NOT due to a gravitational distortion or attraction, it is due to the movement of the air caused by several different factors - not gravity alterations from your spinning mass in a tube. You can accept that, you can test it out in practice by trying some of the ideas we have mentioned above (don't bother though - we know what's going on already, but do it if you need to appease your own mind), or you can ignore us and continue naively to spout your thoughts about it being a gravitational effect. That's as plain as I can be. 1
Theredbarron Posted August 21, 2018 Author Posted August 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Strange said: My question is: what happens if you eliminate the possibility of mechanical movement of the air by covering the end of the tube? I can do this but first you would need to understand what my theory is. My theory argues the logic on who gravity pulls through matter instead mine shows how the matter is creating it. I get that for example earths gravity and how its holding us here and it looks like it pierces matter. I understand that this would prove you correct in that it doesn't hold or move the paper towel with the end capped but it would at the same time demonstrate my theory to be correct as well. Mine says the opposite in that manner unless the paper towell is move with the field in which case this one is moving 6k rpm or more.
Strange Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 12 hours ago, Theredbarron said: Then what is it? You have had a few plausible suggestions already: Mechanical movement of the air (like a fan) - sealing the other end of the tube won't eliminate this possibility. You need to seal the end near your "sensor" (i.e. the piece of paper). Electrostatic force produced by mechanical motion of whatever is inside the tube Just random vibrations in the machine wobbling around on the bench and the piece of paper you are frantically waving around -- basically, until you address the shoddiness of your setup, then anything possible
Strange Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 11 hours ago, Theredbarron said: Why isn't the static attracting or repelling from the sides? How do we know it doesn't. All we have seen is you waving a piece of paper around in front of a tube. I don't even know if there is any airflow into the tube moving the paper or not. 11 hours ago, Theredbarron said: If the tube was metal would that make a difference? If it was metal and grounded, that would help. 8 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: I can do this but first you would need to understand what my theory is. My theory argues the logic on who gravity pulls through matter instead mine shows how the matter is creating it. I get that for example earths gravity and how its holding us here and it looks like it pierces matter. I understand that this would prove you correct in that it doesn't hold or move the paper towel with the end capped but it would at the same time demonstrate my theory to be correct as well. Mine says the opposite in that manner unless the paper towell is move with the field in which case this one is moving 6k rpm or more. That is slightly incoherent. But you seem to be saying that the force generated by your machine would be blocked by a thing film of plastic. If that is the case then it can't be gravity. If gravity was blocked by a thin sheet of plastic then you could just lay that sheet of the floor and float above it. You keep making references to "your theory". If you have a theory, why not explain it instead of relying on videos?
swansont Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 55 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: is that scale moving on the surface of earth? so now what are the result sense the scale that is supposed to be sitting still is moving at 1k mph. To a first order approximation, you can say that we are moving in a straight line, and under that condition, you can't actually say who is moving and who is at rest. IOW, most effects we experience are completely oblivious to the fact that the earth's surface is moving with some speed, or that the earth is moving at 30 km/hr around the sun, or that the solar system is orbiting the galactic center, etc. etc. So an appeal to this is showing ignorance of important aspects of physics. 55 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: gravity effects air with my theory so yes the air is going to move just like it would anywhere else except that high pressure is supposed to move to low pressure yet all the air wants to in the tube and not out. High pressure moving to low pressure is already a feature of extant physics, and so cannot represent evidence of your theory. 55 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: sounds like a low pressure are with heat somehow. so now the air is doing the opposite of what it normally does in our environment. How do you know air is doing the opposite of what it should? Where is your analysis? Where is your mathematical model of your proposal? You said you had calculations. Where are they? 55 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: So yes the molecule in the air like nitrogen and oxygen have weight just like everything else. Are they excluded for what your understanding of gravity is? I don't see the connection with anything under discussion here. The amount of gravity that a sample of a gas will exert follows Newton's law of gravity. In your demonstration it would be negligible. 55 minutes ago, Theredbarron said: Thank you. I am fully aware of nothing coming from this. I dont even care if its gravity but there's only one way to know for sure no matter how ridiculous it seems. I am defiantly going to use this information and try it out though. Its pretty fun. I'm not even involved in the science world at all with my life. I dont even have the background to show. I just dont want to leave any stones unturned no matter what. Nobody is going to do this for me so here I am. You seem to be resisting the suggestions here of what stones you need to turn.
Theredbarron Posted August 21, 2018 Author Posted August 21, 2018 35 minutes ago, Strange said: You have had a few plausible suggestions already: Mechanical movement of the air (like a fan) - sealing the other end of the tube won't eliminate this possibility. You need to seal the end near your "sensor" (i.e. the piece of paper). Electrostatic force produced by mechanical motion of whatever is inside the tube Just random vibrations in the machine wobbling around on the bench and the piece of paper you are frantically waving around -- basically, until you address the shoddiness of your setup, then anything possible okay I will be back with a better demo
Janus Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Theredbarron said: is that scale moving on the surface of earth? so now what are the result sense the scale that is supposed to be sitting still is moving at 1k mph. You've made this same statement about objects on the surface of the Earth as moving at ~1k mph before. You do realize that this figure only holds near the equator? Where I live the number is closer to 700 mph, at the arctic circle it is ~390 mph, and at either pole you are slowly rotating at 0.0007 rpm.
DanMP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Theredbarron said: ... all the air wants to in the tube and not out. ... I don't think so. You can easily check this with your current configuration (without the tube blocked/sealed) if you put something that creates smoke (a cigar maybe) instead of that paper. The smoke would enter the tube in the center, along the rotation axis, where the air has a low presure, and exit near the walls, were the air/smoke is pushed by the centrifugal force (the rotation creates a vortex). Still, I recommend the wooden board I mentioned above, in order to block both air and electrostatic forces (if any). Gravity is not blocked by wood. Edited August 21, 2018 by DanMP 3
DrP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 17 minutes ago, DanMP said: Still, I recommend the wooden board I mentioned above, in order to block both air and electrostatic forces (if any). Gravity is not blocked by wood. Although this is true.... what about drafts from open doors or windows or just air currents from around his workshop or his breathing even? Also, he is holding the towel with his hand - it would need to be clamped (his own twitching will/could move the towel even). He isn't even close to being able to understand what he needs to do to eliminate the effects of air currents and probably still doesn't believe that this is the cause of the movement of the towel. If I were serious about showing that it were not air currents I'd vac down a glove box and do it in there... although I probably wouldn't bother because it is obviously air movement from somewhere. 1
Ghideon Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 If you were given the opportunity to test your setup in a vacuum chamber, what is the expected outcome according to your theory? When there is no air present, does the device still generate gravity and affect the paper? Let's presume that static electricity, vibrations and other problems are eliminated. 1
DrP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 He's taken the video down now? I can't view it anymore. I was going to see if I could guess at where the currents were coming from by studying the motion.... maybe he took it down out of embarrassment or something.
Strange Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Theredbarron said: yet all the air wants to in the tube and not out. You are suggesting that air only flows into the tube. If this were the case then either: the tube would eventually explode or there would be a massive outrush of pressurised air when you turn the machine off. Do either of these happen?
dimreepr Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, DrP said: Although this is true.... what about drafts from open doors or windows or just air currents from around his workshop or his breathing even? Also, he is holding the towel with his hand - it would need to towel (his own twitching will/could move the towel even). He isn't even close to being able to understand what he needs to do to eliminate the effects of air currents and probably still doesn't believe that this is the cause of the movement of the towel. If I were serious about showing that it were not air currents I'd vac down a glove box and do it in there... although I probably wouldn't bother because it is obviously air movement from somewhere. 1 Never forget your towel, wise words indeed... 1
DrP Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Never forget your towel, wise words indeed... and 'Don't Panic!"
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