Linux

[Gaz]

The problem is always bad software installed on a computer, or a bad computer. If somebody buys a Celeron processor, it isn't Microsoft's fault that somebody's computer is too cheap to run Windows XP.

 

I'm in love with FreeBSD. I have an old Pentium II 300Mhz currently serving up a website -Apache with mod_php, MySQL database, an FTP server, SSH for remote shell access. The box even monitors my network producing MRTG bandwidth graphs without breaking a sweat.

 

Yes, this computer is too cheap to run that Microsoft blot-ware, and yes you are right - the problem is bad software - windows software. I challenge you to run microsoft equivilant on that kind of hardware - you can't even come close to security, stability, maintainability and cost.

 

These users have to find a low-quality operating system like Linux before their computer can run correctly.

 

as for low-quality. Well...FreeBSD is the only free operating system listed in Netcraft's longest uptime list for web servers [x]. Quality speaks for itself there.

[herme3]

By this same argument WHY should web designers bother to do websites for anything other than FF.

 

Why should developers bother to develope anything for windows?

 

X-Chat for example dev for both linux and windows' date=' and they say that the windows build/dev takes far longer than the linux one so why bother with it?[/quote']

 

IE comes with almost every computer. Therefore, there is no reason for somebody to need to access a web site with any browser besides IE. Therefore, all web sites should be designed to work with IE. If someone decides to add an extra browser, that is their choice.

 

Hermes3,Ok, first of all, you are REALLY exageratting the number of WINDOWS programs that won't run of Linux. Wine and WineX will run a large number of them, the main problems being games (alot of which WILL run using WineX/Cedega). You seem to think that Windows programs and Windows based games are the only pieces of software that matter. A huge amount of software runs on Linux and Unix systems, including alot of Windows written software and due to the increasing use of .net software along with the development of Mono, you will be seeing alot more of these types of programs.

 

I'm not exaggerating at all. The proof is at any computer forum that has a section for Linux users. There are so many people asking how they get a certain program working with Linux. If they just used Windows XP, they wouldn't be having these problems.

 

You argue that people shouldnt have to code websites in addition to IE. This is complete rubbish from my experiences, I have had to add additional functionality BECAUSE of IE. IE often does things in a completely different way to the standards set out and to other browsers. This causes numerous problems developing interesting sites. Take for example XMLHttpRequest(), IE implements this in an ActiveX Object, which completely cripples the functionality in alot of systems because people turn ActiveX off for security reasons (sometimes advised by microsoft due to a recent bug or exploit). This means not only do I have to add additional checks for IE over other browsers but I also have to implement a fall back setup JUST to be compatible with current modern browsers.

 

When are people going to learn that IE is the standard? I have the statistics to prove it. I own a web site, and it gathers information about each visitor.

 

Here are the browser statistics from a ghost picture web site I own:

 

Microsoft Internet Explorer 6-72%

Firefox 1-16%

Microsoft Internet Explorer 5-3%

Safari 41-3%

Netscape Navigator 7-1%

Firefox 0-1%

Opera 7-1%

Safari 31-1%

Opera 8-1%

Netscape Navigator 8-1%

 

Here are the statistics for the operating systems of my visitors:

 

Windows XP-74%

Windows 98-10%

Windows 2000-8%

Mac OS (Power PC)-4%

Windows ME-3%

Windows NT-1%

Linux-1%

 

I actually own many more web sites. The numbers are almost the same for all of them. In fact, one of my web sites said that 80% of the visitors use Windows XP. All of the sites say that less than 1% of the visitors use Linux. Why should web site owners worry about such a small number of people that decided to stop using IE and start using something else?

[Klaynos]

IE comes with almost every computer. Therefore' date=' there is no reason for somebody to need to access a web site with any browser besides IE. Therefore, all web sites should be designed to work with IE. If someone decides to add an extra browser, that is their choice.

 

 

 

I'm not exaggerating at all. The proof is at any computer forum that has a section for Linux users. There are so many people asking how they get a certain program working with Linux. If they just used Windows XP, they wouldn't be having these problems.

 

 

 

When are people going to learn that IE is the standard? I have the statistics to prove it. I own a web site, and it gathers information about each visitor.

 

Here are the browser statistics from a ghost picture web site I own:

 

[u']Microsoft Internet Explorer 6[/u]-72%

Firefox 1-16%

Microsoft Internet Explorer 5-3%

Safari 41-3%

Netscape Navigator 7-1%

Firefox 0-1%

Opera 7-1%

Safari 31-1%

Opera 8-1%

Netscape Navigator 8-1%

 

Here are the statistics for the operating systems of my visitors:

 

Windows XP-74%

Windows 98-10%

Windows 2000-8%

Mac OS (Power PC)-4%

Windows ME-3%

Windows NT-1%

Linux-1%

 

I actually own many more web sites. The numbers are almost the same for all of them. In fact, one of my web sites said that 80% of the visitors use Windows XP. All of the sites say that less than 1% of the visitors use Linux. Why should web site owners worry about such a small number of people that decided to stop using IE and start using something else?

 

It only comes with every windows pc, (and perhaps mac? not sure if they ship with it as standard)

 

What if I want to use a linux specific program on windows? Oh dear I can't surely that means everyone should use linux?

 

OK let me make something clear here, IE is NOT the html, xml, css standard, these standards are governed by an independent organisation called the world wide web consortium, have a look at w3c.org.

 

Just because many people use something doesn't mean it's better than the rivals. And just out of interst what os does your websever use?

 

Oh yeah and IE is LOSEING market share every day, mostly to firefox.

[Aeternus]

Again, you are using the arguement that since IE or Windows is on the majority of computers that obviously it is "the standard". This is ridiculous as i have stated and given reason for. Also, go into any web development forum and you will learn that IE is not "the standard", there are set down standards from organisations such as W3C etc which microsoft have even recognised, saying they conform to it (which for most of it they do in fairness). Microsoft do make some standards (such as the .net standard) and these are good but saying immediately that everything they do is "the standard" because they have made it and a large number of people use it doesn't make it true.

 

Also, ignoring 28% of your users because they use another browser is insane. Those people might have converted because they feel the other browsers are far better than IE. You are basically saying that IE can be complete rubbish but by doing things differently from everyone else it locks its users into its "standard" and forces users to stick with it because other browsers conform to recognised standards. Also, if you actually go and research it you'll find that alot of browsers do put in fixes so that IE only websites will work. This isn't because the browsers were originally broken, or that they didnt support something, it is because the websites have used non-standards compatible features. There are plenty of features (things such as decent CSS2 support, early CSS3 support, SVG image support) that other browsers support that IE doesnt. Just because IE is sufficient for alot of purposes doesn't make it the better browser.

[Gaz]

In fact, one of my web sites said that 80% of the visitors use Windows XP. All of the sites say that less than 1% of the visitors use Linux. Why should web site owners worry about such a small number of people that decided to stop using IE and start using something else?

 

Wake up and smell the coffee. Your website != The rest of the internet. All you're showing here is that a particular type of person visits your site; computer illiterate mom-and-dad who like to get online with AOL and browse ghost picture websites.

 

 

Internet Explorer is breaking the internet. How can we move to a better XHTML / CSS online world, when travesties such as this are happening?!

[Lyssia]

Gaz, that's a really cool link. Thanks for posting it

 

Lyssia

[1veedo]

I'm not exaggerating at all. The proof is at any computer forum that has a section for Linux users. There are so many people asking how they get a certain program working with Linux. If they just used Windows XP, they wouldn't be having these problems.

There aren't really that many people on any Linux forum (well, possible a gamers forum) that are trying to get Windows programs to run on Linux. Why? Because on Linux, we don't need software from Windows. We have our own, much easier to install, set of applications. In fact, most distros come with literally hundreds to thousands of programs pre-installed. KOfics and OO is, in my opinion, much better then M$ office suit. I have a computer running Windows just across the room so I know. I have never seen a program on Windows that out-performed a similar program on Linux. Actually, on my Windows computer, we don't use a lot of Microsot's stuff. For video, we have BSPlayer (IMO better then Windows Media), we do have Microsoft's office, but we also have Word Perfect (again, IMO, better). Like I said above, we have firefox instead of IE. And you know what's ironic? I didn't install any of it. My sister, dad, and mom did. And my parents both prefer M$ over open source. (actually, if my sis had it her way, that computer would be running Linux too)

 

Just try a live CD of Linux (or the BSD link). There is software for almost everything you can name that "will not work on Linux." Guarantee it.

are people going to learn that IE is the standard? I have the statistics to prove it. I own a web site, and it gathers information about each visitor.

There are more reliable statistics that are compiled from several websites to gather similar statistics. No offense, but your website probably dousn't have the number of visitors to make a very educated estiment of what people use. Just to show you what I mean, here are the statistics for my site:

 

(compiled)

59.42 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) [/sV1: .NET] (XP running IE, pro and home)

26.43 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko [/Gec and Windows 9x] (I think all Windows Firefox users)

3.85 (other Windows, IE)

5.37 Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/200 (hehe, that's me. lol)

7.06 (other *nix)

the rest are search engines and small numbers

 

So it looks like, about 65 IE, 33 firefox, 90 windows, excluding me.

 

But honestly, you're trying to prove something bassed on your website? Look how diferent our statistics are!

 

---

Hm.. this is interesting...

 

MSIE 6 is labled Mozilla/4.0

Firefox is labled Mozilla/5.0

 

 

IE is using Mozilla or something...?

[herme3]

Internet Explorer is breaking the internet. How can we move to a better XHTML / CSS online world, when travesties such as this are happening?!

 

Ok, this doesn't make sense. A web site comes up with all these things that aren't compatible with the browser that almost everyone uses. However, they are compatible with a browser that very few people use. Let me make a comparison that will show how silly this is.

 

At the current time, almost all people drive gasoline powered cars. Now, let's say that someone finds a way to make a car run using water. However, there are very few people that drive these water-powered cars. An independent group suddenly decides that water-powered cars is the new standard. Somebody opens a gas station that only sells water. When most of the people, who are driving gasoline cars come to the water station, their cars won't work with the water.

 

Anyway, I'll try to find a free download of a Linux operating system. I'll install it on an old hard drive I haven't used in a long time.

 

And just out of interst what os does your websever use?

 

My web site host uses Microsoft IIS.

[Klaynos]

IE is using Mozilla or something...?

 

It's legacy compatibility to show that IE is roughly compatible with netscape (from the days when netscape was considered the best browser above IE...)

[Aeternus]

Uh... if you go read up, you'll notice that it isn't another browsers feature or standards, these things are part of an agreed upon web standard put out by the W3C organisation which Microsoft claims to support.

 

Your reasoning in this is completely circular, just because you gain a large market share doesnt mean you gain the right to control the market. As I have said before, go talk to real developers and they will tell you how much trouble IE can give and how it can be such a nuisance to develop for.

 

Using the logic that because something is big and got big, that is should therefore gain all the advantages and stay big, REALLY doesnt make sense.

 

Also, not trying to make this personal but you say "computer expert/specialist", I honestly just out of interest would like to know exactly what you mean by this (not intending this as an offense, its just alot of people have varying understandings of the term expert or specialist and what it means in relation to different topics).

[Dak]

I own several web sites, and I don't even take the time to make sure my sites work with other browsers.

 

Here are the browser statistics from a ghost picture web site I own:

 

Microsoft Internet Explorer 6-72%

Firefox 1-16%

Microsoft Internet Explorer 5-3%

Safari 41-3%

Netscape Navigator 7-1%

Firefox 0-1%

Opera 7-1%

Safari 31-1%

Opera 8-1%

Netscape Navigator 8-1%

 

I wonder why you have so few visiters using non-IE browsers

[Klaynos]

I'm just wondering... humour an old man... did you use QuickSite?

[herme3]

Uh... if you go read up' date=' you'll notice that it isn't another browsers feature or standards, these things are part of an agreed upon web standard put out by the W3C organisation which Microsoft claims to support.

 

Your reasoning in this is completely circular, just because you gain a large market share doesnt mean you gain the right to control the market. As I have said before, go talk to real developers and they will tell you how much trouble IE can give and how it can be such a nuisance to develop for.

 

Using the logic that because something is big and got big, that is should therefore gain all the advantages and stay big, REALLY doesnt make sense.[/quote']

 

I believe that Microsoft has earned its position in the #1 spot. Bill Gates wasn't born a billionaire. Starting Microsoft required a lot of work. Windows did a lot that the competition didn't. That is why Windows became so popular. I'm sure that if another competitor came that was much better than Windows, it would take over the #1 spot.

 

Also, not trying to make this personal but you say "computer expert", I honestly just out of interest would like to know exactly what you mean by this (not intending this as an offense, its just alot of people have varying understandings of the term expert and what it means in relation to different topics).

 

I've never called myself a "computer expert" but I have had the job title "computer specialist". I have worked on computers for other companies, and accomplished more than many IT departments have. I've installed an entire network for one business, and also upgraded their computers from Windows ME to Windows XP. For another business, I recovered all the files from a hard drive after the operating system was accidentally deleted.

 

One time, a company sent me their computer because they believed that the hard drive had overheated. They also seemed to have lost all of their files. My first accomplishment was finding out why the computer overheated. For some odd reason, it didn't have a cooling fan!

 

After that, I ran some recovery software. I was able to recover many of the files that were on the computer. I burned all of those files on some CDs, and gave them to the company. I also explained that they should buy a cooling fan for their system.

 

There was also a time when I received a phone call from another company. They were having problems with their modem, and an IT department came and tried to figure it out. The IT department didn't know what the problem was. They called me, and it only took about 5 minutes for me to fix it over the phone line. They only needed to make a few changes in the Control Panel.

 

I once used Remote Connection to connect to another person's computer. They said that their computer was moving slow, so I ran a spyware scan. I removed over 1,000 spyware files from their computer!

 

These are just a few of the things I have done.

 

I wonder why you have so few visiters using non-IE browsers

 

I don't know. I also own an Internet advertising company that gets thousands of visitors every day. The numbers are almost the same as my ghost pictures web site.

 

I'm just wondering... humour an old man... did you use QuickSite?

 

I did use the Homestead QuickSite builder, although none of my web sites are QuickSites. I designed all of my web sites myself.

[Dak]

I don't know. I also own an Internet advertising company that gets thousands of visitors every day. The numbers are almost the same as my ghost pictures web site.

 

It was sarcasm. If you dont bother to make sure your sites are compatible with non-IE browsers, then people with non-IE browsers possibly have trouble getting onto your site, and so dont bother?

 

Anyway, i see 25% non-IE browsers, a full 1/4 of all your visiters! yes, IE accounts for the majority -- 75% -- but 25% is by no means insignificant.

 

back on topic, iv downloaded knoppix and am playing about with it. it seems quite fast, considering its running from the CD drive.

[Klaynos]

I believe that Microsoft has earned its position in the #1 spot. Bill Gates wasn't born a billionaire. Starting Microsoft required a lot of work. Windows did a lot that the competition didn't. That is why Windows became so popular. I'm sure that if another competitor came that was much better than Windows, it would take over the #1 spot.

 

Actually MS got the #1 spot by clinching a deal about DOS (which they bought and did not start development on) with IBM, then their windows power base built up from this. Not because it did alot more, it was just easy for people to go dos - win95.

[Aeternus]

I believe that Microsoft has earned its position in the #1 spot. Bill Gates wasn't born a billionaire. Starting Microsoft required a lot of work. Windows did a lot that the competition didn't. That is why Windows became so popular. I'm sure that if another competitor came that was much better than Windows' date=' it would take over the #1 spot.[/quote']

 

ROFL, you REALLY seem to have missed the point. I wasn't saying that Microsoft didnt deserve to be at #1 (which in alot of areas it isnt any longer by the way (check out the server market statistics)), I said that just because it is currently #1 in certain areas, that doesnt mean everything it does is "the standard", if you read what several people have said about the W3C organisation and about various other standards organisation, all of which Microsoft claims to abide by, youd understand what I am saying.

 

Standards are not what one person or company does, no matter their position, they are things that are set down and agreed upon such as the W3C standards. Seriously go read up at W3C.org and go look around at various other web developers blogs and opinions.

 

Your whole argument is based around "IE has the largest market share" therefore "IE is the best". Uh.... that isnt a conclusion that can be drawn. As Klaynos pointed out, it may have originally been the best or at least a very good browser but things can go down hill without a loss in market share. The vast majority of users are happy to have a browser that is sufficient, that does the basics, which IE does. That doesn't make it the better browser. The reason these people use IE is because it comes with Windows, which comes with most desktop PCS.

 

Again there are alot of reasons for this that have nothing to do with Windows competancy as an OS. The main reason this occurs today is marketing, discount deals and a variety of other deals made by microsoft. I don't believe Linux is ready for "the masses" for desktop use, in general but there are a growing number of retailers offering PC's that come with Linux Operating systems instead of Windows. Just because I dont believe it's ready for "the masses", doesnt mean it is useless and it doesnt mean it loses out to Windows in every facet of functionality, and it doesnt mean it doesnt have advantages over Windows, it simply means that there are some features that arent quite as simple or easy to use as Windows, and also alot of people are too scared to try something new.

 

No offense intended, but if your next reply revolves around "Microsoft/IE/Windows is #1, everyone uses it, its therefore the best/good", I won't be replying anymore, as its just a pointless exercise.

[herme3]

I am downloading the FreeSBIE version of Linux. Do you have any idea which files to burn on the CD? I am downloading the entire directory from the FTP site.

[Klaynos]

To follow on from Aet:

 

around 70% of webservers run on linux/bsd bassed systems.

 

And Aet: I think something like ubuntu is very close if not there for being ready for the masses, all it needs is a good hand book (although the online docs are good people like my parents like some paper) and possibly a shiny pretty installer. Esspecially if it is being shiped with prebuilt systems where the hardware can be thourally checheckd for compatibility issues (which also has to be done with Windows XP machines - remember SP2 killing everything including ms developed software?) it would be fine.

[Klaynos]

I am downloading the FreeSBIE version of Linux. Do you have any idea which files to burn on the CD? I am downloading the entire directory from the FTP site.

 

You'll probably want the single iso for your processor type.

[Gaz]

Do you have any idea which files to burn on the CD? I am downloading the entire directory from the FTP site.

 

You'll want just the FreeSBIE-1.1-i386.iso

 

It's an ISO file which means it's a CD image, you can burn these with most programs like Nero Burning Rom..Instructions: How to burn an ISO

 

I am downloading the FreeSBIE version of Linux.

FreeBSD is a descendant of Unix, not Linux btw

[Klaynos]

he might have an amd 64 Gaz...

 

And Herme3 I am very happy to see you trying

 

I hope you like it

[Aeternus]

Klaynos, should still be OK as AMD64 has native x86 compatibility (one of the advantages of it).

[herme3]

You'll probably want the single iso for your processor type.

 

Ok, thank you. I have an Intel Pentium 4 processor, so I'll use the i386 file.

 

You'll want just the FreeSBIE-1.1-i386.iso

 

It's an ISO file which means it's a CD image' date=' you can burn these with most programs like Nero Burning Rom..[/quote']

 

All I have is the default Windows XP CD burning software, and B's Clip CD burning software.

[Klaynos]

heeh you wont belive this but my linux distro came with iso burning software

 

Sorry I just had to say that,

 

I've never used B's Clip CD burning software it might do iso's

[Gaz]

All I have is the default Windows XP CD burning software, and B's Clip CD burning software.

 

Couldn't tell you if it's possible using that stuff since it's been a while. Looks like this powertoy might help you out on that front.

 

ISO Recorder Power Toy is a UI component that allows to use CD-Recording capabilities of Windows XPr to record ISO images and copy CD to CD - a piece of functionality missing in Windows XPr

 

The ISO Recorder itself does not record CDs but instead uses existing OS features. Some of the interfaces it uses are not fully documented by Microsoft and as such are subject to change in the future.

 

This software works on Windows XP only . It was tested with retail build of Windows XP (Home and Professional)