John McCain

[DrmDoc]

Sen. John McCain was one of only two Republicans in recent memory whom I felt showed an uncommon measure of integrity for an American politician.   The other was Sen. Arlen Specter.  Sadly, I fear, we shall not see the likes of such men in American politics ever again, which is probably why I have such great hope for those women who have shown tremendous courage in choosing to serve our government.  This is not to suggest that women are incorruptible, it's just time for a major social shift in our governing given the status of our current male leadership, which is extraordinarily disgraceful--IMO.  

Edited August 26, 2018 by DrmDoc

[Ten oz]

John McCain was possibly the last of a class of politicians who followed before they led. His pragmatism was born from having been on the receiving end of policy. It is something greatly missing in politics today where most politicians  merely have ideas about govt but never actually worked on the ground as an employees within govt. Sadly the days when we could expect politicians to have previously served in the Military, DOJ, EPA, Education, or some other department of govt are long gone. McCain's insight and perspective will be greatly missed.

Unfortunately McCain allowed himself to be exploited in the latter parts of his career. As the Republican party shifted toward absolutism centered in race baiting and fear mongering McCain was too much the good solider. Despite his known objections to Bush in general and the execution of the wars in Afghanistan & Iraq in particular McCain campaigned for Bush and held his criticism calculating it was the best way to secure his own Presidential aspirations. Very similar to the error Hillary Clinton made during the same period. Then in 2008 McCain folded to pressure and tapped Sarah Palin as his running mate. An inexcusable choice. The Maverick was too timid toward the loudest extremes in the Republican base. It was all for not as he lost the election and those extreme voices turned on him anyway in support of a man like Trump who openly mocks McCain and his service. It is a shame the way McCain's career ended. In my opinion McCain should have just declared himself an independent after the propaganda filled 00' GOP primary.  Sadly McCain spent the last 18yrs of his career fighting all the wrong side despite seemingly knowing better. 

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Ten oz

[MigL]

He may have been 'wrong' about some things; being human after all.
But he was a man of deeply held convictions, and he certainly gave and sacrificed more than most for those convictions.
He was a patriot and hero first.
Too many politicians these days are simply 'career' politicians, out for themselves and re-election.
Or worse yet, crass entertainers, out for personal fame and fortune, like the current President.

[Achilles]

Ah, John McCain you done it again!

[Ten oz]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

Too many politicians these days are simply 'career' politicians, out for themselves and re-election.

This is tragically how McCain ended the last half of his political career. In the 2000 GOP primary Bush's campaign got very nasty and attacked McCain's wife, daughter, and his military service. It is the reminiscent of those attacks that Trump taps into when he repeatedly has criticized McCain over the last couple years. If you are not familiar with what I am talking about Vanity Fair did a decent piece on it. The cliff notes can be found on Wikipedia.   https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2004/11/mccain200411

Quote

 

unidentified party began a semi-underground smear campaign against McCain, delivered by push polls, faxes, e-mails, flyers, audience plants, and the like.[14][54] These claimed most famously that he had fathered a black child out of wedlock (the McCains' dark-skinned daughter Bridget was adopted from Bangladesh; this misrepresentation was thought to be an especially effective slur in a Deep South state where race was still central[49]), but also that his wife Cindy was a drug addict, that he was a homosexual, and that he was a "Manchurian Candidate" traitor or mentally unstable from his North Vietnam POW days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain_presidential_campaign,_2000#South_Carolina

 

Despite McCain's brutal treatment by fellow Republicans he made nice with Bush. One of the main Carrot's Bush used to solider McCain along of immigration and leaving a clear path to nomination for McCain in 2008. There was a quid pro quo in place were Bush promised to support McCain's immigration reform policies and that no one from his administration would run in 2008. A uncomfortable arrangement obvious to all in 2004 during the swift boating of John Kerry who was a fellow war veteran and personal friend. McCain softy condemned the false attacks on Kerry's service in a few interviews, conceded that he agreed with most of Kerry's platform, but still rallied alongside Bush. Often speaking just before or after those who were pushing the swift boat narrative. Meanwhile his quid pro quo turned out to be fools gold. Bush did support McCain's immigration reform but Republicans in the Senate never allowed it to come up for a vote. McCain saw a couple different versions of his bill shut down in the Senate by his own party. Then in 2008 Bush's admin did clear the field however it hardly even mattered because the situation was so bad no Republican had a shot to win. McCain was given the nomination, saddled with Sarah Palin, and sent out to lose. All the energy and money went into cultivating the Tea Party movement which Palin was the Princess of for a time. 

McCain was a great man. Over the life of his public service career he was very principled and accomplished. However he did not end his career well. He spent the last 18yrs taking more abuse and personal attacks from within his own party than from outside of it. The bulk of his final legislative achievement came with cooperation from Democrats at the disgust of his own party. By 2016 & 2017 McCain was openly ridiculed by the Republican base. It is sad. It makes me angry that daft dodgers like Bush (his Nat. Guard was a way to avoid Vietnam) and Trump blustered their careers at the expense of McCain's reputation without consequence. It also frustrates me that McCain was an enabler to them. Ultimately he played ball too much in the second half of his career and was taken advantage of. 

 

[MigL]

Its not often that the death of an American Senator makes front page/several articles about his life and accomplishments in a Canadian paper, but J McCain has.

I have great respect for B Obama, but feel that a J McCain presidency in 2008 would have turned out well for the US.
J McCain has always reached across party lines, and although a quiet, reserved man ( I know someone who has met him in a wedding/social setting ), has been known to do vodka shots with H Clinton, as they are friends.

He was a friend to Canada, even going as far as coming to Canada in the middle of his 2008 Presidential campaign to deliver a speech on expanding NAFTA.
And after your current President called our Prime Minister " very dishonest and weak ", J McCain tweeted " To our allies: bipartisan majorities of Americans remain pro free trade, pro globalization and supportive of alliances based on 70 years of shared values. Americans stand with you even if our President doesn't. "

Anyone who dislikes D Trump can't be all bad.

[CharonY]

Here is the thing, I am agreeing a lot with John McCain as what he says as a person. I do believe that his stance on torture, for example, was formed from his personal experience and is a deeply held conviction of his.

At the same time, he was a politician and he had to play according to the GOP playbook. And he did. Taking torture as an example, during Bush, he pushed an amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill to limit torture. However, it left a convenient option for the CIA to continue these practices. I do believe that he, as a person would have abolished it, if he could. But he toed the party line, even over his own convictions.

Immigration reform was another one of the big things that he flipped on, when challenged from the right fringes of his party. Especially in AZ (his home state) this was a huge issue.

He was an impressive man and I wonder what could have been if he had shaped the GOP more.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I have great respect for B Obama, but feel that a J McCain presidency in 2008 would have turned out well for the US.

I would agree 100% if not for Sarah Palin. The selection of Palin makes me doubt how much control over the rest of his admin he would have had. That said McCain with a reasonable running mate would have been and excellent choice. 

[dimreepr]

11 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Here is the thing, I am agreeing a lot with John McCain as what he says as a person. I do believe that his stance on torture, for example, was formed from his personal experience and is a deeply held conviction of his.

At the same time, he was a politician and he had to play according to the GOP playbook. And he did. Taking torture as an example, during Bush, he pushed an amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill to limit torture. However, it left a convenient option for the CIA to continue these practices. I do believe that he, as a person would have abolished it, if he could. But he toed the party line, even over his own convictions.

Immigration reform was another one of the big things that he flipped on, when challenged from the right fringes of his party. Especially in AZ (his home state) this was a huge issue.

He was an impressive man and I wonder what could have been if he had shaped the GOP more.

Indeed, I very much doubt I'd have the courage to lead such a life, but I'd very much like too. 

[rangerx]

1 hour ago, MigL said:

I have great respect for B Obama, but feel that a J McCain presidency in 2008 would have turned out well for the US

Not with Palin in tow. Some would suggest that's the beginning of the end for the US.

[Ten oz]

17 minutes ago, CharonY said:

At the same time, he was a politician and he had to play according to the GOP playbook. And he did. Taking torture as an example, during Bush, he pushed an amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill to limit torture. However, it left a convenient option for the CIA to continue these practices. I do believe that he, as a person would have abolished it, if he could. But he toed the party line, even over his own convictions.

Immigration reform was another one of the big things that he flipped on, when challenged from the right fringes of his party. Especially in AZ (his home state) this was a huge issue.

This is how I feel. McCain played ball an increasing amount post the 2000 primary chasing his presidential aspirations. It was unfortunate. 

[dimreepr]

5 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Not with Palin in tow. Some would suggest that's the beginning of the end for the US.

And then comes Trump...

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

And then comes Trump...

Palin was the prototype. She attacked to media, knew nothing, hated fact checkers, appealed to bigots, considered education bias, and on and on. Palin and the tea party laid the ground work for Trump's B.S. tone

[CharonY]

I am honestly still not sure whether Palin was disease or symptom. While heavily disputed, I have a hard time believing that the fact that a half-black man was elected president did not contribute to the popularity of the movement.

[Ten oz]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

I am honestly still not sure whether Palin was disease or symptom. While heavily disputed, I have a hard time believing that the fact that a half-black man was elected president did not contribute to the popularity of the movement.

No doubt. Either way though Palin and the Tea party laid the ground work and push a lot of nonsensical talking points into the popular political sphere. McCain was against it but sadly allowed his campaign to be its launching platform.  

[rangerx]

Yesterday, FOX News shut down comments on McCain's videos on YouTube. because of vicious comments, most from right wingers about the man.

Today in their usual hissy fit, and despite every government building in the country doing so,  the White House raised the flag to full mast.

Politics aside, it's a sad display for veterans, prisoners of war and the families of the lost.

There's no depth to pettiness when it comes to Trump. I'm sure he will loft a few egregious comments during his funeral, so he can steal that thunder too.

Edited August 27, 2018 by rangerx

[iNow]

It's classic chicken and egg, though. Palin would not have been so extremely popular had this strain not already existed and run so deep in the GOP voters.

We could, for example, equally posit that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk on right-wing talk radio are responsible. Or maybe speaker Newt Gingrich in his approach during the Bill Clinton years. Or maybe in the 1980s when personal scandals became more newsworthy than policy positions. Or the southern strategy with Nixon... or as far back as humans have interacted throughout eternity, and possibly even other lifeforms before humans. 

Like evolution, there's no clear line between species here. It's all a bit gray and is a personal choice where we decide to put the thresholds.

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's classic chicken and egg, though. Palin would not have been so extremely popular had this strain not already existed and run so deep in the GOP voters.

We could, for example, equally posit that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk on right-wing talk radio are responsible. Or maybe speaker Newt Gingrich in his approach during the Bill Clinton years. Or maybe in the 1980s when personal scandals became more newsworthy than policy positions. Or the southern strategy with Nixon... or as far back as humans have interacted throughout eternity, and possibly even other lifeforms before humans. 

Like evolution, there's no clear line between species here. It's all a bit gray and is a personal choice where we decide to put the thresholds.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=XDqEW9aeDNL1kwWJxpOwCg&q=yesterday&oq=yesterday&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i131k1l2j0j0i131k1j0l2j0i131k1j0l3.268006.278057.0.281584.11.10.0.0.0.0.100.796.8j1.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.10.893.6..35i39k1.98.ZEnloibVH5g

[Ten oz]

45 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's classic chicken and egg, though. Palin would not have been so extremely popular had this strain not already existed and run so deep in the GOP voters.

We could, for example, equally posit that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk on right-wing talk radio are responsible. Or maybe speaker Newt Gingrich in his approach during the Bill Clinton years. Or maybe in the 1980s when personal scandals became more newsworthy than policy positions. Or the southern strategy with Nixon... or as far back as humans have interacted throughout eternity, and possibly even other lifeforms before humans. 

Like evolution, there's no clear line between species here. It's all a bit gray and is a personal choice where we decide to put the thresholds.

I agree. Palin wasn't the catalyst. Still took someone to lean into it though. McCain corrected the record on the birther stuff. Mitt Romney almost went there with the whole Benghazi "acts of terror" stuff but pulled back. Palin was the most visible candidate for a meaningful national position who embraced it.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Ten oz

[koti]

43 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Today in their usual hissy fit, and despite every government building in the country doing so,  the White House raised the flag to full mast.

The WH kept the flag up while the whole country lowered it? If that is the case that is rock bottom low, my sincere sympathy to all American folks. 

[Ten oz]

47 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Yesterday, FOX News shut down comments on McCain's videos on YouTube. because of vicious comments, most from right wingers about the man.

Today in their usual hissy fit, and despite every government building in the country doing so,  the White House raised the flag to full mast.

Politics aside, it's a sad display for veterans, prisoners of war and the families of the lost.

There's no depth to pettiness when it comes to Trump. I'm sure he will loft a few egregious comments during his funeral, so he can steal that thunder too.

This is the tragedy of McCain's career. He partnered with snakes who ultimately considered him disposable. He compromised on torture, immigration, and endured attacks on his own character in service to a party which repaid his efforts by spitting on his legacy. McCain was a hero and great man yet as a contradiction to both served terrible masters. 

[Phi for All]

3 minutes ago, koti said:

The WH kept the flag up while the whole country lowered it? If that is the case that is rock bottom low, my sincere sympathy to all American folks. 

The WH lowered their flag for a day and a half, citing a different protocol. Most others will keep the flag at half mast until after the funeral.

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

The WH lowered their flag for a day and a half, citing a different protocol. Most others will keep the flag at half mast until after the funeral.

I could be wrong but I do not recall previous admins citing different protocols for the White House itself. 

Quote

 

Presidential Proclamation: Death of Antonin Scalia

DEATH OF ANTONIN SCALIA
- - - - - - -
BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
A PROCLAMATION

As a mark of respect for Antonin Scalia, Associate Justice of the United States, I hereby order, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including section 7 of title 4, United States Code, that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff at the White House and on all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until sunset, on the day of interment.  I also direct that the flag shall be flown at half-staff for the same period at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord two thousand sixteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and fortieth.

BARACK OBAMA

 

 

[koti]

4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

The WH lowered their flag for a day and a half, citing a different protocol. Most others will keep the flag at half mast until after the funeral.

Ok, to be honest that is a little above rock bottom. I was watching Bill Maher interviewing John Brennan just a day before McCain died, worth watching.

[iNow]

22 minutes ago, koti said:

Ok, to be honest that is a little above rock bottom.

It's petty and petulant and pretty clearly IMO just another attempt to distract us and get us all to stop talking about the 7 guilty pleas/convictions among his campaign staff / senior cabinet members and the 35+ other indictments... and the massive amounts reverse robin hood happening in the US... and the unprecedented levels of corruption and profiteering... and the failure to remember or help in any meaningful way the middle class... and drain the swamp... and build the wall... and all of the countless other empty promises he's made.