John McCain

[koti]

5 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's petty and petulant and pretty clearly IMO just another attempt to distract us and get us all to stop talking about the 7 guilty pleas/convictions among his campaign staff / senior cabinet members and the 35+ other indictments... and the massive amounts reverse robin hood happening in the US... and the unprecedented levels of corruption and profiteering... and the failure to remember or help in any meaningful way the middle class... and drain the swamp... and build the wall... and all of the countless other empty promises he's made.

I remember not comprehending when I was in my 20’s why people would want to move to the countryside, get rid of their TV’s and grow veggies and chickens. With the populists coming into power all over the place and my level of knowledge growing its all starting to fall into place. Not ready for that move yet, I still have some patching up to do for the next few years after my divorce but I’m thinking it.

[Ten oz]

15 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's petty and petulant and pretty clearly IMO just another attempt to distract us and get us all to stop talking about the 7 guilty pleas/convictions among his campaign staff / senior cabinet members and the 35+ other indictments... and the massive amounts reverse robin hood happening in the US... and the unprecedented levels of corruption and profiteering... and the failure to remember or help in any meaningful way the middle class... and drain the swamp... and build the wall... and all of the countless other empty promises he's made.

In most the polling I have seen throughout my  life the majority of people polled claim they vote for the person or the policies and not the Party. In my opinion John McCain is a good example of why I feel that is a lie. In 2016 McCain got 1.35 million votes winning re-election over his Democratic opponent who receive 1.03 million (Green Party candidate got 140k). Same election in Arizona Trump got 1.25 million votes to Clinton's 1.16 million votes (no 3rd party on the ticket).

As people McCain and Trump were very far apart. Their policies were 180 degrees from each other. Despite that damn near everyone who voted for McCain in 2016 also voted for Trump. McCain had long been for immigration reform which included pathways to citizenship for undocumented and a guest worker program. Trump central battle cry was "ball the wall". No pathways for undocumented and guest worker programs. Trump was for torture, McCain was against torture. McCain had long advocated for reforming DOD spending and supported Gate's efforts to reign it in under Obama, Trump advocated to make it rain on DOD with record budget increases. Trump personally berated McCain as a member of the swamp he sought to rid the country of.  

McCain served AZ for for 31yrs. As he is mourned today in AZ what's his legacy to those who elected him I wonder. The indifference that belies the sort of person who'd vote McCain and Trump in the same ballot easily extends itself to ignoring indictments and guilty pleas. 

2 hours ago, koti said:

The WH kept the flag up while the whole country lowered it? If that is the case that is rock bottom low, my sincere sympathy to all American folks. 

Following blistering criticism from lawmakers in both parties and veterans groups, President Donald Trump announced Monday he had signed a formal proclamation that would give Sen. John McCain his full honors.

In a statement, Trump said he'd signed the proclamation keeping the White House flag at half-staff through the Arizona Republican's interment, scheduled for Sunday.

https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna904061?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Fwhite-house%2Fw-h-flag-back-full-staff-after-mccain-s-death-n904061

[koti]

3 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Following blistering criticism from lawmakers in both parties and veterans groups, President Donald Trump announced Monday he had signed a formal proclamation that would give Sen. John McCain his full honors.

In a statement, Trump said he'd signed the proclamation keeping the White House flag at half-staff through the Arizona Republican's interment, scheduled for Sunday.

https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna904061?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Fwhite-house%2Fw-h-flag-back-full-staff-after-mccain-s-death-n904061

Trump is a natural at populism, I’m not surprised he changed his mind. If he hadn’t, he’d be faced with criticism from his most hardcore supporters. He is an idiot by many standards but he’s not suicidal, apparently. 

[MigL]

I think you guys give S Palin more credit than she deserves.

If anything, J McCain was a moderating influence on the Republican party during the last 20 yrs.
Without anyone of his caliber left in the party, I foresee them really going off the deep end.
( or maybe they are already there with D Trump )

[Phi for All]

5 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I could be wrong but I do not recall previous admins citing different protocols for the White House itself. 

This piece gives a pretty in-depth accounting:

https://heavy.com/news/2018/08/white-house-raised-flag-full-staff-mccain/

Quote

The proclamation found in the Federal Register may be interpreted to read the American flag should be flying at half-mast in the District of Columbia. Or at least that’s how some have interpreted it to read and thereby permit the President to lower it. But pettiness of that act, if by design, has some angered calling it disrespectful.

From the proclamation: 

Quote

“The flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff on all buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal Government in the metropolitan area of the District of Columbia on the day of death and on the following day upon the death of a United States Senator, Representative, Territorial Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and it shall also be flown at half-staff on all buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal Government in the State, Congressional District, Territory, or Commonwealth of such Senator, Representative, Delegate, or Commissioner, respectively, from the day of death until interment.”

 

31 minutes ago, MigL said:

Without anyone of his caliber left in the party, I foresee them really going off the deep end.
( or maybe they are already there with D Trump )

The really deep end is Putin's Russia, a place where extremist homophobic racist capitalism is looking mighty nice to many members of the GOP. These are folks who've suddenly realized they don't have to conceal & carry their hatred any more. 

McCain was like a vigilant sheepdog, and Trump is the cowardly cur that promised to help, but instead has betrayed the flock to the wolves, making them easier to prey on. We miss you already, Senator McCain.

[John Cuthber]

Politically, I'd not see eye to eye with Senator McCain, but I accept that he had integrity. He stood for what he believed in- and was prepared to serve as a soldier in defence of those  beliefs. That's the mark of an honourable man and I'm sure we all respect him for it.
Obviously I send my best wishes to his friends and family.

 

His passing has given us a window into what his party now stands for- both in terms of Trump's petty minded insults and also this
https://wokesloth.com/kelli-ward-accuses-mccain-of-dying-on-purpose/mariam/

With people like that in the Republican party, I wonder how anyone can support it

[Ten oz]

10 hours ago, koti said:

Trump is a natural at populism, I’m not surprised he changed his mind. If he hadn’t, he’d be faced with criticism from his most hardcore supporters. He is an idiot by many standards but he’s not suicidal, apparently. 

I do not believe, not even a little, that Trump's supports would have give 2 sh!ts about the whether or not the flag was at half mast. Last week Trump's personal Attorney for the last decade pled guilt to felonies and implicated Trump in campaign crimes. Also Trump's former campaign chairman was found guilt of multiple felonies. Trump's approval rating hasn't moved. Trump has openly criticized McCain in the past, Trump's aides (Kelly Sadler) dismissed McCain as "dying anyway", and won't be attending the funeral. 

I will be very surprised if Trump doesn't attack McCain on tweet this upcoming weekend. Trump loves the attention he receives on cable news and McCain will be stealing away too much of it this week.Trump will most definitely criticize Obama's eulogy of McCain and probably cry foul about the positive manner that the fake news media handles the various eulogies and contrast it against the unfair treatment he receives. Messing around with the flag at the White House was just the an initial flirtation. More is coming. 

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Winter More is coming.

FTFY

Snark aside... Agree with your point completely. 

[John Cuthber]

5 hours ago, Ten oz said:

More is coming. 

It came, but not in the direction you (and I ) expected.

Apparently Trump's latest target is reality (as represented by Google)
https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/28/technology/donald-trump-google-rigged/
I'm beginning to wonder if even his most blind supporters will swallow that. Sadly, I think many will.

 

[iNow]

More to the thread subject, who replaces John McCain in the Senate is another hot issue. There are two open issues, actually.

One, who will the state governor appoint to fill McCain's existing seat for the remainder of his term, and Two, special elections taking place now to replace and fill the seat of the other Senator from Arizona, Jeff Flake, who resigned amid the fierce response to him when he openly pushed back against Trump.

The Trump wing of the part has taken total control, much like a hostile takeover in corporations. There are two very right leaning republicans running in the Flake primary (one being Sheriff Joe Arpaio who was arrested for his affronts on civil liberties then later pardoned by Trump and now running for Senate... the other being Kelli Ward), plus one moderate republican (Martha McSally).

The two extreme right wingers (Arpaio and Ward) are essentially cannibalizing each others votes and giving an opening to the moderate (McSally). Were it not for there being two extreme Trump supporters in one race, the moderate would likely be losing badly during these primaries, but less able to win the seat during the general.

A good write-up here: https://www.vox.com/2018/8/28/17786532/arizona-senate-primary-mcsally-ward-arpaio-midterms

[MigL]

Loved the comments in the Kelli Ward link you provided, John.

[John Cuthber]

24 minutes ago, iNow said:

he two extreme right wingers (Arpaio and Ward) are essentially cannibalizing each others votes and giving an opening to the moderate (McSally).

My word! I hope so.

[MigL]

Noticed that S Palin and a few people associated with the 2008 Presidential run are not invited to attend J McCain's funeral services.

Is J McCain a 'sore loser' and vindictive, even in death.
Or didhe finally come to realize that these people were/are not what he needed in his life.

[rangerx]

35 minutes ago, MigL said:

Is J McCain a 'sore loser' and vindictive, even in death.
Or did he finally come to realize that these people were/are not what he needed in his life.

The latter. Palin is a disgrace and an unapologetic Trump supporter/liar.

All too often, the VP pick is not the personal choice of the candidate, but decreed by the single greatest campaign contributor.

[Ten oz]

4 hours ago, MigL said:

Is J McCain a 'sore loser' and vindictive, even in death.
Or didhe finally come to realize that these people were/are not what he needed in his life.

This was sort of what I referred to in my initial post. He was too loyal a soldier and didn't catch on he was fighting for the wrong side. Today as people like Joe Biden provide the most heartfelt goodbyes rather than from those McCain campaigned and vited with I suspect much would be different if he could do it all again. Hey, that's life though. I would do a lot of things different if I could go back. 

 

[John Cuthber]

How had trump and Palin come to the conclusion that they deserved to be invited?

[DrP]

7 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

How had trump and Palin come to the conclusion that they deserved to be invited?

Because they are both totally delusional?

[John Cuthber]

2 hours ago, DrP said:

Because they are both totally delusional?

Technically, I think that may be a medical diagnosis and I'm not formally qualified to make one but...

Yes.

[CharonY]

8 hours ago, MigL said:

Is J McCain a 'sore loser' and vindictive, even in death.
Or didhe finally come to realize that these people were/are not what he needed in his life.

McCain did bemoan the increase in partisanship over the years and probably recognized that eventually he did play along. The fact that he asked Obama to have his eulogy, despite being rivals and not having any personal relationship (in contrast to Biden, for example) could be seen as reaching across the aisle a final time. And make no mistake, the rivalry was fierce, if not as grotesque as the last election.

In similar vain, he invited Bush, who defeated him the first time around. That and by explicitly not inviting folks who he likely saw as drivers of partisanship, populism and overall caustic political atmosphere (which is tearing on the seams of his party) is a carefully crafted message.

It is not so much a message about which guys he liked or not. Rather, it can be seen as a lesson for the public at large.

[dimreepr]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

This was sort of what I referred to in my initial post. He was too loyal a soldier and didn't catch on he was fighting for the wrong side.

it struck me that he was, rather, loyal to his own beliefs but not too proud to change his mind when presented with a good argument rather than threats; that seems to me to be a good definition of a hero.

[Phi for All]

9 hours ago, MigL said:

Noticed that S Palin and a few people associated with the 2008 Presidential run are not invited to attend J McCain's funeral services.

Is J McCain a 'sore loser' and vindictive, even in death.
Or didhe finally come to realize that these people were/are not what he needed in his life.

Another option is that these people, Palin in particular, can't be trusted not to turn McCain's funeral into a platform for themselves. 

[CharonY]

9 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Another option is that these people, Palin in particular, can't be trusted not to turn McCain's funeral into a platform for themselves. 

That could be dealt with by inviting them, but not giving them a place as speaker.

Edited August 31, 2018 by CharonY

[rangerx]

34 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That could be dealt with by inviting them, but not giving them a place as speaker.

Generally, folks don't send or get invitations for funerals. Invited to speak, yes but almost never to attend.

To dis-invite someone demonstrates they were not proud... possibly even ashamed of their association with them in retrospect.

Politics sure, but funerals are no place for hypocrisy.

[John Cuthber]

2 minutes ago, rangerx said:

 but funerals are no place for hypocrisy.

Probably best to ask Trump not to attend then.

47 minutes ago, CharonY said:

That could be dealt with by inviting them, but not giving them a place as speaker.

I favour the option of inviting them, but giving them the wrong date and venue.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

it struck me that he was, rather, loyal to his own beliefs but not too proud to change his mind when presented with a good argument rather than threats; that seems to me to be a good definition of a hero.

McCain wasn't true to his beliefs on Torture, Immigration, Afghanistan, Syria, Spending, and etc. McCain was better than most Republicans, perhaps all current Republicans, when it came to being honest but Republicans has set a very low bar. Had McCain truly stuck to his beliefs he wouldn't have let far right conservatives push Palin on him, campaigned for Bush in 2004 despite acknowledging the swift boating of fellow war hero John Kerry was terrible, campaigned for Bush as Superpac money flooded the scene in direct contrast to his campaign finance positions, he wouldn't have gone silent on Assad after spending years publicly criticizing Obama for not doing more to remove him, and on and on. Graded on a curve against other members of his party McCain A+. Graded against politicians overall he was a C+  about being true to his beliefs and compromise. C+ is really good for the current state of the Republican party which is one of the reason McCain is being so thoroughly celebrated.