John McCain

[Carrock]

32 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

I favour the option of inviting them, but giving them the wrong date and venue.

That would work as they all know Fake News is lying about the venue and indeed the announcement of his death is a conspiracy against them.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, CharonY said:

That could be dealt with by inviting them, but not giving them a place as speaker.

Joseph McCarthy, George Wallace,  Richard Nixon, Dick Cheney, David Duke, and so on are considered pariahs by history. Yet all held elected office at one time and were given all due respect of their office. I think the McCain family understand that Trump and Palin will be viewed by history as pariahs. Best to keep them away. 

46 minutes ago, rangerx said:

To dis-invite someone demonstrates they were not proud... possibly even ashamed of their association with them in retrospect.

John McCain comes from what is widely viewed as one of the U.S.'s greatest families. In the U.S. we do not have royalty as does the U.K., Spain, and others but we do have specific families which maintain high status over generations like the The Kennedy's and Rockefeller's. Both McCain's Father and Grandfather were 4 star Admirals and led major U.S. war campaigns and were responsible for strategies  in WW1, WW2, and Vietnam. They are among the most highly decorated Naval officer ever with numerous dedications (street names, building names, policy references, etc) throughout the Navy. Both his father and Grandfather were named John McCain (Sr. & Jr). So the family has a legacy they are extremely proud of and a strong sense of history. So I completely understand why the McCain family doesn't want an ugly blight on history like Trump at the funeral. 

[Phi for All]

54 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Both McCain's Father and Grandfather were 4 star Admirals and led major U.S. war campaigns and were responsible for strategies  in WW1, WW2, and Vietnam. They are among the most highly decorated Naval officer ever with numerous dedications (street names, building names, policy references, etc) throughout the Navy. Both his father and Grandfather were named John McCain (Sr. & Jr). 

My brother served on a destroyer named after McCains I & II. 

That said, I'm not a fan of dynasties, especially in politics. We need good leaders who represent ideals, not names and special families. 

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

My brother served on a destroyer named after McCains I & II. 

That said, I'm not a fan of dynasties, especially in politics. We need good leaders who represent ideals, not names and special families. 

It is strange to me the way Conservative voters laud independence and individual determination yet are a party led by a bunch of legacy rich kids. Trump and Romney sell themselves as self made and treat the elitist levels wealth they were born into as a coincidence. They pulled themselves up by their own boot straps. Bush was a daddies boy who attended  boarding school in Massachusetts and got into Yale with sub par grades yet sold himself off as a salt of the earth Texan rancher. They are all the opposite of self made. Meanwhile both Obama and Clinton grew up without fathers in small humble households, excelled academically, and went on to become extremely successful. They are literally self made yet Conservatives hate their guts. 

 

[Ten oz]

Trump has disrespected John McCain 2 days in a row calling McCain a dark stain and last in class at the Naval Academy. Link

It is this sort of total disregard of basic decency that has elevated the divisive political climate we are in. John McCain was a Republican and spent over 3 decades in the Senate representing Republicans. Now that he is dead and of no use Trump is trashing his name and all those who support Trump are fine with it. They are an ugly bunch of people. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Trump has disrespected John McCain 2 days in a row calling McCain a dark stain and last in class at the Naval Academy. Link

It is this sort of total disregard of basic decency that has elevated the divisive political climate we are in. John McCain was a Republican and spent over 3 decades in the Senate representing Republicans. Now that he is dead and of no use Trump is trashing his name and all those who support Trump are fine with it. They are an ugly bunch of people. 

Strong stuff!

[Ten oz]

9 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Strong stuff!

As oppose to repeatedly attacking a dead man which is WEAK stuff. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

As oppose to repeatedly attacking a dead man which is WEAK stuff. 

I don't recall "all those who support Trump" doing that.

[Ten oz]

25 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I don't recall "all those who support Trump" doing that.

How does supporting him differ from encouraging and or accepting his behavior? 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Ten oz

[J.C.MacSwell]

Just now, Ten oz said:

How does supporting him different from encouraging and or accepting his behavior? 

You've failed to give them a better alternative. Most support him despite his...let's be kind and call them "antics", not because of them.

Of course "despicable behaviour" is more accurate, but the point stands.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You've failed to give them a better alternative. Most support him despite his...let's be kind and call them "antics", not because of them.

Of course "despicable behaviour" is more accurate, but the point stands.

How many dark chapters in history do you believe have been justified this way? Having good intention doesn't exonerate bad outcomes. 

[naitche]

The shame of it for the left is the idea that if you are not with us, you must be against us. Dissent with some aspects of  policy on the left  sees people shut out and silenced, denied any space there.

There are really only 2 choices. Having good intention doesn't exonerate bad outcomes.

A persons choice of which side to support, if a choice must be made, is subjective.  I think its a huge mistake for Left thinking people to assume its objective. That the mass of humanity supporting the opposition in elections are supporting a similarly singular ideology as a fixed identity.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by naitche

[iNow]

What you describe is a problem neither isolated to nor demonstrated by just one side of the aisle. 

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest all Trump voters are okay with what Trump is saying about McCain.

It is, however, fair to question their intentions, motivations, and even integrity if they continue supporting and voting for him despite these and other offenses so common with him. 

[rangerx]

2 hours ago, naitche said:

The shame of it for the left is the idea that if you are not with us, you must be against us. Dissent with some aspects of  policy on the left  sees people shut out and silenced, denied any space there.

There are really only 2 choices. Having good intention doesn't exonerate bad outcomes.

A persons choice of which side to support, if a choice must be made, is subjective.  I think its a huge mistake for Left thinking people to assume its objective. That the mass of humanity supporting the opposition in elections are supporting a similarly singular ideology as a fixed identity.

 

It's not exclusive to the left, as you put it.

However, when rhetoric and lies come from leaders there's no hiding behind it. The right voted for Trump. He is the example that has been set and the lead which is followed.

If anyone voted for him, they are responsible for him.

Republicans went on ad nauseam  for decades about personal responsibility, but run like rats from the sinking ship when it comes to taking responsibility for Trump.

[naitche]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

What you describe is a problem neither isolated to nor demonstrated by just one side of the aisle. 

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest all Trump voters are okay with what Trump is saying about McCain.

It is, however, fair to question their intentions, motivations, and even integrity if they continue supporting and voting for him despite these and other offenses so common with him. 

Question yes. 

2 hours ago, rangerx said:

It's not exclusive to the left, as you put it.

However, when rhetoric and lies come from leaders there's no hiding behind it. The right voted for Trump. He is the example that has been set and the lead which is followed.

If anyone voted for him, they are responsible for him.

Republicans went on ad nauseam  for decades about personal responsibility, but run like rats from the sinking ship when it comes to taking responsibility for Trump.

No, not exclusive. to one side or the other. A Human trait, to be aware of.

If you place barriers to a persons direction, you can't hold them responsible for choosing another.

They can't be held responsible for the direction that opened for the displaced.

As for taking responsibility for Trump, looks like they have, if his antics are worth what they gained.

You won't change peoples conditions by denying them  legitimacy in the collective. That doesn't address the condition,  or even attempt to change it to a better one.

It just says theres no place for them in this space.

Trump represents an alternative direction.  I doubt many people actually see him as the example thats been set or the lead to be followed, as much as a direction left open for diverse perspectives not accepted else where.  

 

 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 hours ago, Ten oz said:

How many dark chapters in history do you believe have been justified this way? Having good intention doesn't exonerate bad outcomes. 

First it's "ugly bunch of people", and now "good intentions"?  Which is it?

Unable or unwilling to  provide them with a viable option you feel the need to insult them? Why don't you stick with "basket of deplorables". That worked out well.

[rangerx]

2 hours ago, naitche said:

Trump represents an alternative direction.  I doubt many people actually see him as the example thats been set or the lead to be followed, as much as a direction left open for diverse perspectives not accepted else where.

Let's not beat around the bush here, the alternative direction you've cited... is terrorism.

The NZ shooter murdered fifty people after he wrote a 16,000 word hate manifesto, invoking Trump.

If the shoe were on the other foot... conservatives would scream radical Islamic terrorism from the rooftops.

It's radical white nationalist terrorism. Why can't they just say it?

In fact, the only conservative I've ever heard attempting to set the record straight in a public setting, was John McCain.

[Ten oz]

7 hours ago, naitche said:

The shame of it for the left is the idea that if you are not with us, you must be against us. Dissent with some aspects of  policy on the left  sees people shut out and silenced, denied any space there.

There are really only 2 choices. Having good intention doesn't exonerate bad outcomes.

A persons choice of which side to support, if a choice must be made, is subjective.  I think its a huge mistake for Left thinking people to assume its objective. That the mass of humanity supporting the opposition in elections are supporting a similarly singular ideology as a fixed identity.

 

Elected officials only exist, get elected, via their supporters. The idea of limited options isn't a viable excuse for giving one support those exercising bad behavior. People are responsible for the choices they make and the crap they support. 

7 hours ago, iNow said:

What you describe is a problem neither isolated to nor demonstrated by just one side of the aisle. 

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest all Trump voters are okay with what Trump is saying about McCain.

It is, however, fair to question their intentions, motivations, and even integrity if they continue supporting and voting for him despite these and other offenses so common with him. 

Trump denigrated McCain's service while campaigning prior to the 2016 election. Mocked his time as a POW saying he preferred soldiers who weren't captured and called him a loser for failing to win in 2008. Everyone who voted for Trump in 2016 did so aware of his insults against McCain. Since that time and since McCain's death the insults have continued and Trump's approval rating while low overall remains steady. His approval among Republicans is very high. I think it is absolutely fair to suggest Trump voters are okay with what he says about McCain. At the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) this year, attended by tens of thousands of self described Conservatives, Michelle Malkin called McCain a "sell out" during a speech to a cheering audience. Insulting McCain is the new normal on the right. 

 

39 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Let's not beat around the bush here, the alternative direction you've cited... is terrorism.

The NZ shooter murdered fifty people after he wrote a 16,000 word hate manifesto, invoking Trump.

If the shoe were on the other foot... conservatives would scream radical Islamic terrorism from the rooftops.

It's radical white nationalist terrorism. Why can't they just say it?

Seems to me many simply don't want to change their behavior. Admitting the role their rhetoric plays would logically pressure change. So instead we get denial and deflection.

 

[rangerx]

24 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Seems to me many simply don't want to change their behavior. Admitting the role their rhetoric plays would logically pressure change. So instead we get denial and deflection.

We're also witnessing overtures to use governmental agencies and organized crime to suppress free speech. Trump threatened to use military and law enforcement assets, as well as empowering outlaw gangs to violently suppress dissent. To quote, it would "be bad, very bad" for liberals if they were to do so.

There's nothing to be gleaned from that, other than totalitarian dictatorship. One would have to be an imbecile to interpret that as a strongly worded letter or scathing editorial.

This weekend, among an unhinged plethora of psychopathic rants, Trump called upon the FCC to silence NBC for a re-run of Saturday Night Live.

Given Trump's support among his base remains unchanged, they're all good with despotism, apparently.

[Ten oz]

41 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Given Trump's support among his base remains unchanged, they're all good with despotism, apparently.

As It applies to McCain, this being a McCain thread, Trump supporters aren't moved by his insults towards McCain. Trump supporters are aware that he insults a dead man and aren't moved by it. 

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

First it's "ugly bunch of people", and now "good intentions"?  Which is it?

Unable or unwilling to  provide them with a viable option you feel the need to insult them? Why don't you stick with "basket of deplorables". That worked out well.

So the ends justify the means then? 

[rangerx]

5 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

As It applies to McCain, this being a McCain thread, Trump supporters aren't moved by his insults towards McCain. Trump supporters are aware that he insults a dead man and aren't moved by it. 

Yeah, nothing reflects conservative values greater than insulting a war hero's academic standing and service to his country. No less being no longer around to defend himself.

It's odious and insidious. It's the height of cowardice, vindictiveness and counter patriotism. Especially coming from a fraudulent draft dodger with obvious mental health issues.
 

[J.C.MacSwell]

38 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

So the ends justify the means then? 

No. I don't think Trump having gotten elected is justification for insults toward the right, or toward Trump's base, nor will I think it is justified if Trump gets in again, or replaced by a Democrat, in 2020.

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

No. I don't think Trump having gotten elected is justification for insults toward the right, or toward Trump's base, nor will I think it is justified if Trump gets in again, or replaced by a Democrat, in 2020.

No? Look at how many people from Trump's campaign have been proven guilty in court of crimes related to his election, look at all the lies Trump tells, and etc. It is immoral for his supporters to stand by him. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

No? Look at how many people from Trump's campaign have been proven guilty in court of crimes related to his election, look at all the lies Trump tells, and etc. It is immoral for his supporters to stand by him. 

If you restricted your insults to those people, your justification needs no more than the crimes they have committed. 

[rangerx]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If you restricted your insults to those people, your justification needs no more than the crimes they have committed. 

So merely voting for a despot is beyond reproach then?

That sounds like censorship to me, no less coming from someone who claims to be a champion for free speech.