Effect of nearby civilizations on ours

[Moontanman]

What would you think the effect of suddenly realizing that dozens of civilizations more less like ours exist within 100 light years of the Earth. Let's say we realized that an odd part of the EM spectrum we hadn't really checked was flooded by signals but we realized none of the planets were Earth like, all were either very hot Venus like planets or very cold Titan like planets.  The Fermi Paradox would be solved for sure and I think the simplest reason we hadn't seen them physically here would be that they would be more or less as confined to their planetary systems just like we are, but how do you think our own civilization/societies/cultures would be affected? Religion would have a new set of ideas to either embrace or fight against no doubt but what other effects would there be, significant or not... 

[Phi for All]

Once you figure out how to keep track of the Joneses, you're going to have to work harder figuring out how to keep up with them. 

[Ten oz]

The response would be denial but a large portion of the population. Many don't believe in climate change or evolution and things like anti vaccine nonsense is catching on. There are growing numbers of people who aren't sure if the Earth isn't. Until aliens come down to earth in a spetical too great to be ignored many will continue to deny they exist and many more will claim not to be sure if they exist for the sake of being netural on the issue. People will not broadly accept the words of scientist on the matter in my opinion.

To be honest if I were a scientist will empirical proof of alien life I would probably just keep it to myself. People don't accept those things which they choose not to. I would not sacrifice the rest of my life arguing about it.

[Achilles]

I think God only made humans in this universe.

[Carrock]

 It could be a disaster for anyone working in fundamental physics, maths and some other sciences.

There would be solutions for all the interesting current and future problems or proof there was no solution.

If I were Galactic Dictator I would only only allow discussion of unsolvable problems like what is the best art or the best society, or discussion of largely solved problems (for us) like what is the best description of relativity.

 

in so many areas, not just physics and maths, searching for knowledge is at least as valuable as what is discovered.

 

 

[StringJunky]

27 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I think God only made humans in this universe.

Why don't you join a forum where that kind of comment is expected and welcomed?

[Achilles]

11 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Why don't you join a forum where that kind of comment is expected and welcomed?

Because you are *insert highly offensive words here*. That's why. Just kidding.

[StringJunky]

29 minutes ago, Achilles said:

Because you are *insert highly offensive words here*. That's why. Just kidding.

Spoken like a good Christian, Catholic, whatever... 

Edited August 26, 2018 by StringJunky

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Achilles said:

I think God only made humans in this universe.

Why? 

Why then is the universe so vast with so many stars and planets?

If we were it on planet Earth, why then are we not at the core/center of the solar system/galaxy/universe? Why do we exist the third rock from a dwarf star in the outskirts of s humdrum galaxy, with many billions of other galaxies?

Edited August 26, 2018 by beecee

[koti]

6 hours ago, Moontanman said:

What would you think the effect of suddenly realizing that dozens of civilizations more less like ours exist within 100 light years of the Earth. Let's say we realized that an odd part of the EM spectrum we hadn't really checked was flooded by signals but we realized none of the planets were Earth like, all were either very hot Venus like planets or very cold Titan like planets.  The Fermi Paradox would be solved for sure and I think the simplest reason we hadn't seen them physically here would be that they would be more or less as confined to their planetary systems just like we are, but how do you think our own civilization/societies/cultures would be affected? Religion would have a new set of ideas to either embrace or fight against no doubt but what other effects would there be, significant or not... 

First thought that came into my mind is the film “Contact” I think things might have a chance of going down like portrayed in that movie. Religious freaks sabotaging things, other people cooperating to make the contact, etc. We could be very much divided as a species as to how to react to such revelations. In fact, I think theres a good chance we could screw things up... in a nutshell, scientists would dress up to look all nice and beautiful for the new friends but Trump would send his space force to patrol the orbit and nuke anyone trying to come in or out. At least Mexicans would have it easier with Trump off their case. 

[Moontanman]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

The response would be denial but a large portion of the population. Many don't believe in climate change or evolution and things like anti vaccine nonsense is catching on. There are growing numbers of people who aren't sure if the Earth isn't. Until aliens come down to earth in a spetical too great to be ignored many will continue to deny they exist and many more will claim not to be sure if they exist for the sake of being netural on the issue. People will not broadly accept the words of scientist on the matter in my opinion.

To be honest if I were a scientist will empirical proof of alien life I would probably just keep it to myself. People don't accept those things which they choose not to. I would not sacrifice the rest of my life arguing about it.

You could very well have a point and maybe they do and don't tell us for that very reason. 

4 hours ago, Achilles said:

I think God only made humans in this universe.

What you think is irrelevant to this discussion as stated in the OP... 

3 hours ago, Carrock said:

 It could be a disaster for anyone working in fundamental physics, maths and some other sciences.

There would be solutions for all the interesting current and future problems or proof there was no solution.

If I were Galactic Dictator I would only only allow discussion of unsolvable problems like what is the best art or the best society, or discussion of largely solved problems (for us) like what is the best description of relativity.

 

in so many areas, not just physics and maths, searching for knowledge is at least as valuable as what is discovered.

 

 

You are assuming that they are either far ahead of us or that these things have solutions, I'm not sure either is a certainty, it could very well be that we are fast approaching as far as science can venture. I hope not btw... 

1 hour ago, koti said:

First thought that came into my mind is the film “Contact” I think things might have a chance of going down like portrayed in that movie. Religious freaks sabotaging things, other people cooperating to make the contact, etc. We could be very much divided as a species as to how to react to such revelations. In fact, I think theres a good chance we could screw things up... in a nutshell, scientists would dress up to look all nice and beautiful for the new friends but Trump would send his space force to patrol the orbit and nuke anyone trying to come in or out. At least Mexicans would have it easier with Trump off their case. 

That is sad but probable, as long as they are as confined to their planetary system as well are it would give us some time to come to grips with the revelation... 

[Carrock]

7 hours ago, Moontanman said:

11 hours ago, Carrock said:

 It could be a disaster for anyone working in fundamental physics, maths and some other sciences.

There would be solutions for all the interesting current and future problems or proof there was no solution.

If I were Galactic Dictator I would only only allow discussion of unsolvable problems like what is the best art or the best society, or discussion of largely solved problems (for us) like what is the best description of relativity.

 

in so many areas, not just physics and maths, searching for knowledge is at least as valuable as what is discovered.

You are assuming that they are either far ahead of us or that these things have solutions, I'm not sure either is a certainty, it could very well be that we are fast approaching as far as science can venture. I hope not btw... 

I'm assuming these things have solutions or don't have solutions or are unprovable like, probably, the continuum hypothesis or whether the proton is unstable.

I'm not assuming 'they' are ahead of us, simply that more than 50% of the current number of civilizations were around a million (or  100 million) years ago. Not long in the context of 13 billion years since BB.

It's then a reasonable assumption that at least one in a million of those millions of civilizations within, say, a million light years, was ahead of us in any given field subject to scientific method and have communicated their knowledge to anyone within a million light years who would rather look at the teacher's handbook, as it were, rather than work the problem.

 

'It could very well be that we are fast approaching as far as science can venture.'

I hope not too. Back in 1900 physics' main big challenges were the photoelectric effect and the ultraviolet catastrophe. Happily our Rumsfeldian ignorance (known unknowns) has mostly been increasing faster than our knowledge ever since.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Carrock
trivial change

[Silvestru]

16 hours ago, Moontanman said:

What would you think the effect of suddenly realizing that dozens of civilizations more less like ours exist within 100 light years of the Earth. Let's say we realized that an odd part of the EM spectrum we hadn't really checked was flooded by signals but we realized none of the planets were Earth like, all were either very hot Venus like planets or very cold Titan like planets.  The Fermi Paradox would be solved for sure and I think the simplest reason we hadn't seen them physically here would be that they would be more or less as confined to their planetary systems just like we are, but how do you think our own civilization/societies/cultures would be affected? Religion would have a new set of ideas to either embrace or fight against no doubt but what other effects would there be, significant or not... 

Hmmm is it okay to assume that we intercept their radio signals and can get an understanding of their culture as they could if they would receive our broadcasts? 

If so we would have a good idea on how to react. Taking into account your OP I see people only take into account how humans would react. But what about the other side?

Depending on what information we get from them we can make an opinion. I don't know about alien biology and behaviour but looking at life on earth it is full of aggression and violence on every level not just humans. 

It's a race for survival. Hunt or be hunted. Maybe aliens evolved the same way.

Very interesting post by the way. Sparked my curiosity. +1

Edited August 27, 2018 by Silvestru

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, Silvestru said:

Hmmm is it okay to assume that we intercept their radio signals and can get an understanding of their culture as they could if they would receive our broadcasts? 

I have to admit I am assuming that the odd EM frequency is something we don't currently use extensively or we would already have detected them. It is also true that currently, other than intentional signals, we, as a civilization, are undetectable even to the nearest star. Dust, gas, and ions in interstellar space absorb our "signal leakage" way before it gets to other stars.  

3 hours ago, Silvestru said:

If so we would have a good idea on how to react. Taking into account your OP I see people only take into account how humans would react. But what about the other side?

Good question but i would think that if there are a large number of them close by they already know of each other. Of course finding a planet with life so different than them might set off a bunch of ripples in their cultures as well.. 

3 hours ago, Silvestru said:

Depending on what information we get from them we can make an opinion. I don't know about alien biology and behaviour but looking at life on earth it is full of aggression and violence on every level not just humans. 

Good point, I'm not so sure life wouldn't be that way on any planet to some extent but it is something to think about. 

 

3 hours ago, Silvestru said:

It's a race for survival. Hunt or be hunted. Maybe aliens evolved the same way.

Probably, evolution via natural selection almost demands it on some level.

3 hours ago, Silvestru said:

Very interesting post by the way. Sparked my curiosity. +1

Thanks, sorry if I came across as wanting to shut everyone down last night, I apologize... 

16 hours ago, Ten oz said:

 

 

15 hours ago, Carrock said:

 

 

15 hours ago, StringJunky said:

 

 

14 hours ago, beecee said:

 

 

13 hours ago, koti said:

 

I am sorry if I came across as wanting to shut everyone down last night, I apologize... 

[Carrock]

1 hour ago, Moontanman said:

I am sorry if I came across as wanting to shut everyone down last night, I apologize...

Not at all.

It was good to have a quick response.

[Sensei]

23 hours ago, Moontanman said:

What would you think the effect of suddenly realizing that dozens of civilizations more less like ours exist within 100 light years of the Earth. Let's say we realized that an odd part of the EM spectrum we hadn't really checked was flooded by signals but we realized none of the planets were Earth like, all were either very hot Venus like planets or very cold Titan like planets. 

On very hot planet Carbon-based organic compounds could not exist enough long to support Carbon-based organic life. e.g. some proteins are starting denaturing at >= 41 C. Majority of them in range 44-50 C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)

Google for "denaturation temperature of protein" and then "denaturation temperature of dna".

However, if some civilization created artificial life forms, AI/AGI, and only electronic life forms survived, they could stand temperature ranges impossible for Carbon-based organic life forms.

 

Majority of human TV/Internet data transmission is not using radio waves, but fiberwire these days. Cellphones and cells have so small power that even somebody on the Earth couldn't catch everybody, not to mention, somebody on the Moon, Mars, or distant planet in other star system.

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Sensei

[Moontanman]

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

On very hot planet Carbon-based organic compounds could not exist enough long to support Carbon-based organic life. e.g. some proteins are starting denaturing at >= 41 C. Majority of them in range 44-50 C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)

Google for "denaturation temperature of protein" and then "denaturation temperature of dna".

However, if some civilization created artificial life forms, AI/AGI, and only electronic life forms survived, they could stand temperature ranges impossible for Carbon-based organic life forms.

Umm silicone life? 

[Sensei]

5 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

Umm silicone life? 

There used to be couple threads on this forum about possibility of creation of silicon based life forms, and conclusions were that silicon compounds don't have many solvents which could play similar role like water in Carbon-based life forms.

Google for "scienceforums.net silicon life"

 

[Moontanman]

7 minutes ago, Sensei said:

There used to be couple threads on this forum about possibility of creation of silicon based life forms, and conclusions were that silicon compounds don't have many solvents which could play similar role like water in Carbon-based life forms.

Google for "scienceforums.net silicon life"

 

Yeah I probably started a couple of them. Concentrated sulfuric acid is one that has been suggested. Gold in his book "The Deep Hot Biosphere" suggested that under extreme pressure silicone fluids might fit the bill.  

[beecee]

5 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 I am sorry if I came across as wanting to shut everyone down last night, I apologize... 

I didn't get that feeling at all. I am waiting for my questions though to be answered by our god fearing member.

[Moontanman]

3 hours ago, Sensei said:

There used to be couple threads on this forum about possibility of creation of silicon based life forms, and conclusions were that silicon compounds don't have many solvents which could play similar role like water in Carbon-based life forms.

Google for "scienceforums.net silicon life"

 

Some unusual and not often discussed forms of possible biochemistry... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry

Quote

Other exotic element-based biochemistries[edit]

See also: Organoboron chemistry

• Boranes are dangerously explosive in Earth's atmosphere, but would be more stable in a reducing environment. However, boron's low cosmic abundance makes it less likely as a base for life than carbon.
• Various metals, together with oxygen, can form very complex and thermally stable structures rivaling those of organic compounds;^{[citation needed]} the heteropoly acids are one such family. Some metal oxides are also similar to carbon in their ability to form both nanotube structures and diamond-like crystals (such as cubic zirconia). Titanium, aluminium, magnesium, and iron are all more abundant in the Earth's crust than carbon. Metal-oxide-based life could therefore be a possibility under certain conditions, including those (such as high temperatures) at which carbon-based life would be unlikely. The Cronin group at Glasgow University reported self-assembly of tungsten polyoxometalates into cell-like spheres.^[19] By modifying their metal oxide content, the spheres can acquire holes that act as porous membrane, selectively allowing chemicals in and out of the sphere according to size.^[19]
• Sulfur is also able to form long-chain molecules, but suffers from the same high-reactivity problems as phosphorus and silanes. The biological use of sulfur as an alternative to carbon is purely hypothetical, especially because sulfur usually forms only linear chains rather than branched ones. (The biological use of sulfur as an electron acceptor is widespread and can be traced back 3.5 billion years on Earth, thus predating the use of molecular oxygen.^[20] Sulfur-reducing bacteria can utilize elemental sulfur instead of oxygen, reducing sulfur to hydrogen sulfide.)

 

[DrP]

On ‎26‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:02 PM, Achilles said:

I think God only made humans in this universe.

Well I've seen horses, dogs, cats, ants and many other animals on this planet alone - so I know you are wrong.

[Silvestru]

13 hours ago, beecee said:

I didn't get that feeling at all. I am waiting for my questions though to be answered by our god fearing member.

Don't hold your breath. God had a moment of negligence and missed with his blessing.

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Silvestru said:

Don't hold your breath. God had a moment of negligence and missed with his blessing.

[Ten oz]

13 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Some unusual and not often discussed forms of possible biochemistry... 

We (Humans) have yet to replicate creating life despite seemingly knowing the conditions which were necessary here on earth for it. So I think it is fair to say we don't yet fully understand the process. So it is useful when people attempt to limit extraterrestrial life to our limited understanding of life. *Not implying you are doing that.

All life on earth has DNA and represents just a single type of life. I have never felt the Fermi Paradox is a true paradox. We consider Earth's conditions to be good for life and yet life only created here on earth a single time. To me that implies the probability for the creation of life is low even when conditions allow for it. If the probability were high I would expect to see more than one type of life on Earth. Rather all life is cellular DNA based evolved from a single source(s). 

I am open to there being life out in the universe which is different than what we can currently imagine. Perhaps we are already inundated with the evidence of their existence but just haven't identified it yet.