The pedigree system and domestic Dogs

[MigL]

Just about every time I've taken my cats to the vet hospital for a checkup, there's been women carrying their pedigreed dog in their arms waiting for their chemotherapy injection. These are obviously 'show circuit' dogs, that have cancers as a result of inbreeding.

These poor dogs are definitely not pets/companions, but rather, status symbols.
Can't help but feel sorry for them.

[naitche]

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

They have two choices.
They can inbreed- to maintain the "purity of the breed" or they can outbreed- " to diminish the chance of genetic defects."
They can not do both- because that's the way genetics works.

Which do they do?

Or, they could breed with a clear purpose in mind, and select for that purpose based on what is proven in their own environment to deliver maximum value to that purpose.

As open working dog registries do.

Regardless of a mythical set of 'standard' conditions that may or may not have any bearing on your own. 

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by naitche

[Itoero]

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

They have two choices.
They can inbreed- to maintain the "purity of the breed" or they can outbreed- " to diminish the chance of genetic defects."
They can not do both- because that's the way genetics works.

Which do they do?

To maintain the purity of a breed you don't have to inbreed. You breed with dogs of the same kind but a different bloodline. When looking for a breeding partner, if possible, you need to try to diminish the chance on genetic defects. It's possible you have to travel to find a correct breeding partner for your dog. It all depends on how much time and effort you put into it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4579364/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12535334

[dimreepr]

7 minutes ago, Itoero said:

To maintain the purity of a breed you don't have to inbreed.

Who said you did? I have 2 jack russells, a mother and daughter, both healthy and both different because the mother wasn't shagged by her father.

[Itoero]

53 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Who said you did? I have 2 jack russells, a mother and daughter, both healthy and both different because the mother wasn't shagged by her father.

   John Cuthber implied it in his post.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Itoero said:

   John Cuthber implied it in his post.

Nope, he didn't.

[Itoero]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Why? most mongrels are cheap or free. 

I don't have a mongrel. I have a West-Siberian laika

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, Itoero said:

I don't have a mongrel. I have a West-Siberian laika

Your choice; what are the benefits? 

[Itoero]

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Nope, he didn't.

yes he did, here:

"hey have two choices.
They can inbreed- to maintain the "purity of the breed" or they can outbreed- " to diminish the chance of genetic defects."
They can not do both- because that's the way genetics works. "

The blood line is not the same as the breed of a dog.

[dimreepr]

14 minutes ago, Itoero said:

yes he did, here:

"hey have two choices.
They can inbreed- to maintain the "purity of the breed" or they can outbreed- " to diminish the chance of genetic defects."
They can not do both- because that's the way genetics works. "

The blood line is not the same as the breed of a dog.

What's your definition of purity?

[John Cuthber]

49 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Nope, he didn't.

Yes I did.

And I meant it.
The likes of the Kennel Club only allow you to call a dog a "pedigree" Jack Russell, if both its parents were on their register as pedigree JRs.

There's no way to get new blood into the breed.
This has been happening for many generations so, they are all mating with their close relatives.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

I have 2 jack russells, a mother and daughter, both healthy and both different because the mother wasn't shagged by her father.

If they are pedigree dogs I can trace their ancestry back to a very limited stock.  The mother may not have been shagged by her father, but she was shagged by her cousin, and so were her grandfather, grandmother and great grandpa .

(If they are not pedigree dogs then they are off topic)

 

[dimreepr]

10 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

The likes of the Kennel Club only allow you to call a dog a "pedigree" Jack Russell, if both its parents were on their register as pedigree JRs.

I never asked, they just look like JR's, I don't really care, they're just good at killing rat-like things...

[John Cuthber]

14 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

(If they are not pedigree dogs then they are off topic)

 

[dimreepr]

Says who? 

[John Cuthber]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Says who? 

Well, the title for a start...

[mistermack]

The whole pet thing is a mystery to me. I had some goldfish a few years ago by accident, and I kept them out of curiosity. I got some pond weed off freegle, and there must have been eggs on it. 

I like cats but don't want one. Other people's cats are near enough. And I certainly wouldn't want one that had a shrunken nose. How people can live with their consciences buying shrunken-nose animals escapes me.

I'd like to start a mongrel register, where people could post their dog's details, only including dogs that have not been a recognised breed for more than three generations. Or preferably no breed history at all. People could buy a mongrel in the knowledge that it's not just a cross between two different pure breed dogs, but a genuine no-breed mongrel. And they could find a mongrel mate for their dog, so that the pups were genuine mongrels as well.

You could allow a bit of choice, like in size and coat, for mating with your dog, to get the kind of pups you were hoping for, and give the buyers a rough idea of what the pups might look like when they grow. But really, it would be better if it was like having a baby. You don't know what you're going to get, and end up loving them anyway.

[John Cuthber]

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Who said you did?

The kennel club for one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed:_Three_Years_On#Inbreeding_and_genetic_diversity

 

[naitche]

6 hours ago, mistermack said:

The whole pet thing is a mystery to me. I had some goldfish a few years ago by accident, and I kept them out of curiosity. I got some pond weed off freegle, and there must have been eggs on it. 

I like cats but don't want one. Other people's cats are near enough. And I certainly wouldn't want one that had a shrunken nose. How people can live with their consciences buying shrunken-nose animals escapes me.

I'd like to start a mongrel register, where people could post their dog's details, only including dogs that have not been a recognised breed for more than three generations. Or preferably no breed history at all. People could buy a mongrel in the knowledge that it's not just a cross between two different pure breed dogs, but a genuine no-breed mongrel. And they could find a mongrel mate for their dog, so that the pups were genuine mongrels as well.

You could allow a bit of choice, like in size and coat, for mating with your dog, to get the kind of pups you were hoping for, and give the buyers a rough idea of what the pups might look like when they grow. But really, it would be better if it was like having a baby. You don't know what you're going to get, and end up loving them anyway.

I would love to see a new register started based on purpose, free movement between groupings based on suitability to purpose,  and even multiple category listing.

A  mission statement to promote value, responsibility and purpose.

I think it would serve to better educate people about their choices,  have a huge effect on  welfare issues  by promoting the idea that domestic dogs are a personal responsibility, Not an organisational one. I think that could reinforce  Registered or not, there is a responsibility to promote value and purpose in breeding practices.

At the moment, the registries don't do that. instead its implied that a Pure Breed Pedigree Register  inherently supplies those benefits  ( As one breeder told me ) It doesn't. A pedigree register is just a set of environmental conditions with no value of itself. It depends on the value brought to it. As it stands now,  no value can be brought that isn't there to begin.

10 hours ago, Itoero said:

I don't have a mongrel. I have a West-Siberian laika

Your breed has some advantages at this stage. Its a relatively recently recognised breed. There is still a very large 'control' population of Land race specimens, very  likely a much larger gene pool with no historical 'bottle necks'.

The Russians have their own unique cultural  attitude to dogs that has been slower to embrace the Pure breed/Pedigree culture. Most Western cultures were pretty much at the same place regarding dogs about 75 years ago. I.M.O much healthier.

The same does not apply for a majority of recognised breeds.

[naitche]

11 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Well, the title for a start...

Not really. Domestic Dogs....

I think the Pure breed/Pedigree system is and has been  affecting our attitudes  and expectations for Domestic dogs. I think it has lead human communities to become less responsible in their breeding practices and understanding of the species. To view them more as commodities and status symbols.

To dumb them down so they are less responding to their human environment and more reacting to stimulus according to fixed traits.

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by naitche

[dimreepr]

9 hours ago, naitche said:

Not really. Domestic Dogs....

I think the Pure breed/Pedigree system is and has been  affecting our attitudes  and expectations for Domestic dogs. I think it has lead human communities to become less responsible in their breeding practices and understanding of the species. To view them more as commodities and status symbols.

To dumb them down so they are less responding to their human environment and more reacting to stimulus according to fixed traits.

4

Indeed, it's not the KC perse, it's the natural human inclination to try and measure perfection arbitrarily and desire to own it; laws can stop that and a carefully worded law can ensure the KC's arbitrary measures, not only, doesn't conflict with natural laws (genetics) but also keeps the dimwits happy...       

BTW not everyone's a dimwit, some of us need a sled dog or sheepdog or... 

Edited September 2, 2018 by dimreepr

[mistermack]

6 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Indeed, it's not the KC perse, it's the natural human inclination to try and measure perfection arbitrarily and desire to own it; laws can stop that and a carefully worded law can ensure the KC's arbitrary measures, not only, doesn't conflict with natural laws (genetics) but also keeps the dimwits happy...       

BTW not everyone's a dimwit, some of us need a sled dog or sheepdog or... 

You don't see shepherds or Inuits with "Champion Marmaduke Churchill the second" in the reins, or running up and down Snowdon. Actually, any time I've watched sheep trials, the better dogs were very obviously mixed breed, nothing like a show border collie. 

[beecee]

19 hours ago, naitche said:

Not really. Domestic Dogs....

I think the Pure breed/Pedigree system is and has been  affecting our attitudes  and expectations for Domestic dogs. I think it has lead human communities to become less responsible in their breeding practices and understanding of the species. To view them more as commodities and status symbols.

To dumb them down so they are less responding to their human environment and more reacting to stimulus according to fixed traits.

 

While it's obviously true that some do see owning pedigrees as a status symbol, that most certainly does not apply to me. Every dog I have had, has been a "mate" with whom I spent plenty of time with. And while I agree with some of the sentiments reflected in the OP and in other posts, my attraction to pure breeds in general, has probably been more hand-me down from the days when my parents bred miniature Dachsunds. In fact at this moment I am trialing for a few days, with a young [14 months old] cross breed Foxy and Pug with the possibility of looking after it for a month while the owners go on an overseas holiday. How it gets along with my two Dachys will decide on whether I look after it of course.

[naitche]

This is not meant to be Pedigree bashing thread.

There are undeniable benefits to Pedigrees. Better understanding the genetic history, able to match  traits with expectations and personal environment are just two reasons the system has has been supported as long as it has. They are good reasons.

Welfare of domestic dogs could benefit enormously  if Back yard breeders were more aware of those considerations. That should have been a side effect of the K.Cs establishment. A positive influence on their environment.

The opposite has been true. I am convinced after years now of examining the problems and culture that the reason for that is the K.Cs do not recognise the environment beyond their own identity.

Instead of promoting practices that deliver maximum value in dog breeding, those practices are suppressed . A Dog Breeder, to the K.C identity ( not member, they are individual ) is a K.C member. Biologicaly speaking, the perspective of the K.C Identity is fixed to that idea. Because a dog with out a pedigree is not recognised.

In defining the space of a Pedigree breeder against what lies beyond that space, its no longer an environment created to better support dog breeders goals and purpose.

Its an Identity in its own right, with a fixed perspective. Possibilities are limited. Its self evolution is  finished. Breeders themselves have described the dedication to the pedigree and its standards as a religion. Their faith in the Pedigree .

Persons on the Pedigree forums requesting help with a pedigree breeding related problem are advised or directed to help. Those with unregistered dogs are invariably derided for their irresponsibility,  being in a situation where they need help. For not understanding the consequences and pit falls of breeding. For breeding dogs whos history is unknown. 

Their ability to respond to the species is denied and discredited. Demonstrations of successful  breeding practice beyond the pedigree system are not permitted to stand. They will be discredited. Demonstrations of poor practice on the other hand, are used to justify Legislation targeting the environments where those practices have been shown to occur. And exemptions sought at the same time for the K.Cs.

Its a single species. The practices used to bring best value to humanity from that species are not confined to a pedigree environment. 

The Pedigrees are closed. There are protocols in place to to allow out crosses, and this has been done for example in Boxers, to introduce the bob tail gene,  and in Dalmations to overcome a uric acid problem. Only using other pedigree dogs, but it has happened. When it does, many breeders will avoid those new lines as not 'true' to their breed, or even reject that breed completely. Its a long, slow process with approval needing sanction every step of the way.

The closed pedigrees are are a problem, but the closed culture on top of that makes it a far bigger one.

The only value to dogs recognised must be in the Pedigree. In the 'standard' condition of the dog. Its breed standard.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by naitche

[DrP]

On 9/1/2018 at 5:36 PM, John Cuthber said:

The likes of the Kennel Club only allow you to call a dog a "pedigree" Jack Russell, if both its parents were on their register as pedigree JRs.

There's no way to get new blood into the breed.
This has been happening for many generations so, they are all mating with their close relatives.

I've noticed a lot of JR cross breads with the likes of the chihuahua recently. It might not go down with the die hard JR enthusiasts but it makes for a lovely dog. I would imagine this can only be a good thing for the genetic stock. My parents have one and it is a lovely dog.  

[mistermack]

If I had to have a designer dog, if there were no proper mongrels around, my dog of choice would be a cross between a long-coated black and white border collie, and a greyhound. 

I saw one once on the local common, and it was just beautiful to watch it run. It had the full coat of the collie, but was a bit taller, and more graceful, and boy could it move. 

Funnily enough, the owner said it was all collie, but I've been around collies all my life, and my family have had greyhounds, and it was obvious what it was.