Can science prove God ?

[dimreepr]

30 minutes ago, Silvana said:

There have been studies trying to prove whether or not payers work as well as studies trying to prove the existence of God. 

This article flips it, and asks if there is a science to prayers? I don't think there is a concrete answer to either question.

 

The studies? There is...

[DrP]

50 minutes ago, Silvana said:

There have been studies trying to prove whether or not payers work

I assume they concluded that there was a placebo effect?  I also assume that 'the faithful' would have a slight increase of perceived positive answers to prayer based on further placebo through stronger belief and maybe a touch of Pareidolia with some good old wishful thing and maybe some misunderstanding of probability?  What did they find? 

[Strange]

4 hours ago, Silvana said:

What would it take to convince a skeptic to believe

Evidence?

[zapatos]

3 hours ago, DrP said:

I assume they concluded that there was a placebo effect?  I also assume that 'the faithful' would have a slight increase of perceived positive answers to prayer based on further placebo through stronger belief and maybe a touch of Pareidolia with some good old wishful thing and maybe some misunderstanding of probability?  What did they find? 

Actually I believe they found that those who knew they were being prayed for did worse than those who did not know they were being prayed for. They suspected it had something to do with high expectations. Other than that I believe the study found there was no benefit to prayer.

[Phi for All]

4 hours ago, Silvana said:

And I would say it is the same for skeptics. What would it take to convince a skeptic to believe, or a believer not to believe?

I think the opposing side of the spectrum is a denier, not a skeptic. A skeptic would be right in the middle between the believer and the denier, on the fence, waiting to come off the fence on the side with the most supportive evidence.

[DrP]

14 hours ago, zapatos said:

Actually I believe they found that those who knew they were being prayed for did worse than those who did not know they were being prayed for. They suspected it had something to do with high expectations. Other than that I believe the study found there was no benefit to prayer.

That is interesting. Although do we know who the test subjects were?  Although this is more assumption from me I would think it is very complex and you could run the experiment 20 times with different results. There are so many variables.  Are the prayed for believers or non believers? What are their expectation for the prayer to be considered positive. What are they praying for? (relief from a minor ailment or raising from the dead)

 

 

[Raider5678]

3 hours ago, DrP said:

Are the prayed for believers or non believers?

I'm not sure about other religions, however, the Judeo Christian religion prohibits them from testing their God. 

18 hours ago, zapatos said:

They suspected it had something to do with high expectations.

I thought it was concluded that the people who were being prayed for were less likely to take their medicine as well? IIRC. I could be wrong.

[DrP]

22 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I'm not sure about other religions, however, the Judeo Christian religion prohibits them from testing their God. 

...convenient that. I guess they put that rule in to avoid embarrassment. ;-)

24 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I thought it was concluded that the people who were being prayed for were less likely to take their medicine as well? IIRC. I could be wrong.

I did say that it would be very complex and multiple trials would be needed with blinds etc...  some taking meds some not, some believers some not etc. Repeated for different types of ailments.

Again  -  I am guessing that there could be a placebo.  I had some AMAZING co-incidences crop up as answers to prayer when I was a Christian. Looking at the back of someone from across the room in a church wanting them to experience the same joy as I felt during my 'baptism in the Holy Ghost' I raised my hand like a priest or wizard and prayed they'd have it too...   then watching them throw their hands in the air gasping for breath due to the ecstasy they are in and falling to their knees in tears of joy... happened a few times - like zapping someone with power...  although - this happens all the time in churches so it could have been a co-incidence that they emoted and dropped at the same time I projected my love at them.  They were probably praying for that feeling.  That - or there may be some connection between us  -  I can't explain the Holy Ghost...   A video from Derrin Brown gave some good suggestions I saw once where he gave an atheist the same experience as baptism in the holy ghost...  so I am guessing it is a state of body and mind.

 

[zapatos]

Quote

In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. 

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

[Akmose]

Can science prove God ?

it's the job of science to figure out how the universe works not how it was made.

the question that is important is. Is the universe and everything in it an artificial creation or a naturally occurring event?

there are three answers to this question. The most important answers are yes and no.

Each person seeks to find an answer, each leads to inevitable conclusions. 

Any being that can create a universe, is powerful enough and smart enough to make it impossible to find them. If he doesn't want to be found. No human has the means to do so, science or no science.

Any answer to the question is religious. Leave science out of it.

[beecee]

37 minutes ago, Akmose said:

Can science prove God ?

it's the job of science to figure out how the universe works not how it was made.

The job of science is to model the universe as we observe it, and extrapolate as far back as is necessary, to be able to describe the evolution of the universe. So far we are able to reasonably go back to t+10-43 seconds.

Quote

the question that is important is. Is the universe and everything in it an artificial creation or a naturally occurring event?

Any form of ID or any seemingly magical creator is an unscientific concept.

 

Quote

Any answer to the question is religious. Leave science out of it.

Any religious answer or ID is mythical without any evidence to support it.

[Vexen]

Think about evolution. It's scientific theory and it says that humans have a common ancestor with chimpanzees. Why would an all knowing and all powerful  god evolve us from a common ancestor of chimps? God could have just created us from nothing. Do chimps believe in the god? Are they going to heaven? When exactly did God put the soul in humans?

[studiot]

10 minutes ago, Vexen said:

Think about evolution. It's scientific theory and it says that humans have a common ancestor with chimpanzees. Why would an all knowing and all powerful  god evolve us from a common ancestor of chimps? God could have just created us from nothing. Do chimps believe in the god? Are they going to heaven? When exactly did God put the soul in humans?

 

What does that have to do with the OP question?

 

12 hours ago, beecee said:

The job of science is to model the universe as we observe it, and extrapolate as far back as is necessary, to be able to describe the evolution of the universe. So far we are able to reasonably go back to t+10-43 seconds. 

13 hours ago, Akmose said:

it's the job of science to figure out how the universe works not how it was made

 

Why can we not apply Science to look into any proposition we choose?

[Vexen]

8 minutes ago, studiot said:

 

What does that have to do with the OP question?

Evolution is science.

[studiot]

1 minute ago, Vexen said:

Evolution is science.

Only part of it.

[Sensei]

26 minutes ago, Vexen said:

Think about evolution. It's scientific theory and it says that humans have a common ancestor with chimpanzees.

It's easily verifiable by comparison of DNA chains of two or more species whether they have common ancestor.

If somebody is rejecting humans evolution from apes, should not such person also reject DNA paternity test? Reject recognition of found unknown dead body using DNA tests? Reject recognition of criminals using DNA tests? GMO? And so on, so on..

26 minutes ago, Vexen said:

Why would an all knowing and all powerful  god evolve us from a common ancestor of chimps? God could have just created us from nothing.

In the Bible "Adam" is created not from nothing, but from "clay".. It's such analogy of transformation of inorganic matter to organic matter, expressed by scientific layman..

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Sensei

[Vexen]

 Statistical analysis of prayer to God also show no effect.

"A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods."

13 minutes ago, Sensei said:

In the Bible "Adam" is created not from nothing, but from "clay".. It's such analogy of transformation of inorganic matter to organic matter, expressed by scientific layman..

 

Humans weren't around during the creation of life. Homosapiens are a recently evolved animal.

[Strange]

4 hours ago, Vexen said:

Think about evolution. It's scientific theory and it says that humans have a common ancestor with chimpanzees. Why would an all knowing and all powerful  god evolve us from a common ancestor of chimps?

The answer to a question like this is, because that is what the god wanted to do. 

That is the problem with a god as an explanation. It can explain anything. So it explains nothing.

[Akmose]

Why can we not apply Science to look into any proposition we choose?

Lets say we apply science to model the creation of a universe. The result would be inconclusive. We would only prove that a universe could be created not that it naturally formed. 

Your in the realm of philosophy not science. Science requires data. That means observation and experimentation. We don't even know where 90% of the mass of the universe comes from. We don't know what gravity is. We know how it works but not what it is. 

Let me put it this way. The difference between science and science fiction is hard work. You would be selling science fiction as science.

[jajrussel]

It is the term God that is the problem. The universe exist science can prove that the universe exist. It is an ongoing project. Creation is a scientific process that is if you consider chemical reactions to be science. Science can prove that I exist. Science can even explain how to a limited degree. I say limited because if I ask why am I me, what's the answer? 

I'm sure there is an answer. How exact does that answer need to be? Philosophy fills in the blanks if that is enough then God isn't necessary. Actually, I'm often puzzled. I'm content most is the time. I often find myself surrounded by the drama that is life. Knowing full well that tomorrow the sun will come up and life will go on, and knowing that if it doesn't then none of the days drama has any meaning. If it could be scientifically proven that God exist. What changes that isn't already going to change? Everyday new concepts about God/s are created by men. Read the scriptures read the histories. What can be proven is that men keep changing what they think about God based on the drama presented with each day. God says love, God says kill. God says take God says give. God is perfect God created man perfect, but then man sinned. What? The whole Primus is flawed, and after thousands of years of men believing in God proof no stronger than man's opinion of Gods existence exist. Which at this point should be proof enough that science will never prove that God exist, but give it time every time you turn around a new study says this, then a new study says that. Each supposedly scientifically proven.

For years we spiked our kids breakfast cereals with vitamins. I would have considered that a scientific study of proven success of the practice. Yet supposedly not that long ago a recent study showed that vitamin supplements were essentially a useless practice. Then there is eggs are bad eggs are good. Every little thing I eat is going to kill me, not to mention that there is at least one thing that I am not eating that not eating is going to kill me, and all of it scientifically proven according to the latest study.

I figure that if they ever do scientifically prove that God exist. Well? No, probably not...

[DrP]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 5:20 AM, Akmose said:

the question that is important is. Is the universe and everything in it an artificial creation or a naturally occurring event?

I am getting more and more confused as to what people consider natural and un-natural. If an intelligent mind has evolved naturally...  then, naturally that intelligent mind would create new things and make new things. How is something manmade not natural? If we have our intelligence 'naturally' and our intelligence leads to what some call 'un-natural' things then surely that is a mistake in understanding?  It IS natural for these things that seem un-natural to occur, because naturally, an intelligent mind would invent such things.

Is Rum and Raisin ice cream natural?

This is obviously off topic - sorry - I might open a new thread if anyone wants to discuss it.

 

 

 

 

[EWyatt]

On 9/16/2018 at 10:04 AM, Itoero said:

No. The belief in afterlife is often due to wishful thinking.

Afterlife?  The thing is, we're here now, and if it can happen once, it can happen again.  That, I believe, is the key to "afterlife" no matter if our "next" life happens a millisecond or 100 trillion years after this one.  I don't believe we can dispute the "if it happened once it can happen again" concept.

[zapatos]

34 minutes ago, EWyatt said:

Afterlife?  The thing is, we're here now, and if it can happen once, it can happen again.  That, I believe, is the key to "afterlife" no matter if our "next" life happens a millisecond or 100 trillion years after this one.  I don't believe we can dispute the "if it happened once it can happen again" concept.

I'll dispute it. If conditions permanently change, and those conditions were necessary for something specific to happen, then it can't happen again.

[Itoero]

4 hours ago, EWyatt said:

Afterlife?  The thing is, we're here now, and if it can happen once, it can happen again.  That, I believe, is the key to "afterlife" no matter if our "next" life happens a millisecond or 100 trillion years after this one.  I don't believe we can dispute the "if it happened once it can happen again" concept.

When you lose a loved one then you miss him or her and want/wish to see him or her again. This is imo a main reason people believe in afterlife.

I often want to believe in afterlife but from a scientific point of view there is no reason to believe in afterlife. We are one of the many animal species on Earth. From a biological point of view there is nothing special about us.

 

[EWyatt]

19 hours ago, Itoero said:

When you lose a loved one then you miss him or her and want/wish to see him or her again. This is imo a main reason people believe in afterlife.

I often want to believe in afterlife but from a scientific point of view there is no reason to believe in afterlife. We are one of the many animal species on Earth. From a biological point of view there is nothing special about us.

 

I agree with most of your comments, but "afterlife" isn't really what I wrote about.  My point was that if we are here now, why not again.  If physics can get us here this time, why not again?