Near death experiences ,proof of afterlife ?

[beecee]

29 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It is certainly evidence to any reasonable person. There is no denying that many people have had these experiences and that they mean something.

Please explain to me how another person's delusions, illusions, dreams, imaginations, experiences are evidence for anything other then  delusions, illusions, dreams, imaginations and experiences? Please explain to me  how any personal  experience that maybe unexplained,  is evident of anything supernatural. 

[Endercreeper01]

Just now, beecee said:

Please explain to me how another person's delusions, illusions, dreams, imaginations, experiences are evidence for anything other then  delusions, illusions, dreams, imaginations and experiences? Please explain to me  how any personal  experience that maybe unexplained,  is evident of anything supernatural. 

If you had these experiences, they would change you.

[beecee]

8 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

If you had these experiences, they would change you.

You believe that?   But anyway, you have avoided the questions.

[Endercreeper01]

Just now, beecee said:

You believe that?   But anyway, you have avoided the questions.

 

16 minutes ago, beecee said:

Please explain to me how another person's delusions, illusions, dreams, imaginations, experiences are evidence for anything other then  delusions, illusions, dreams, imaginations and experiences? Please explain to me  how any personal  experience that maybe unexplained,  is evident of anything supernatural. 

Because there is nothing else that would cause these experiences.

[beecee]

8 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

 

Because there is nothing else that would cause these experiences.

Not true. The mind is a wonderful thing, but can and does play tricks on people.  The light and atmospheric disturbances and conditions also are contributors. Check out all the nonsensical claims of Alien controlled UFO's....95% can be explained by the conditions mentioned among others not mentioned. The remaining 5% are just that...unexplained.  When you can legitimately rule out all  scientific causes then you may have an unexplained event...still not actual evidence of anything supernatural.

[Endercreeper01]

4 minutes ago, beecee said:

Not true. The mind is a wonderful thing, but can and does play tricks on people.  The light and atmospheric disturbances and conditions also are contributors. Check out all the nonsensical claims of Alien controlled UFO's....95% can be explained by the conditions mentioned among others not mentioned. The remaining 5% are just that...unexplained.  When you can legitimately rule out all  scientific causes then you may have an unexplained event...still not actual evidence of anything supernatural.

There are so many things that are unexplained about the mind and consciousness.

For you to say that the mind is only playing tricks on people is nothing more than being dismissive. It is easy to say without any true backing to it.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Endercreeper01

[beecee]

1 hour ago, Endercreeper01 said:

For you to say that the mind is only playing tricks on people is nothing more than being dismissive. It is easy to say without any true backing to it.

And for you to say that something is supernatural simply because you cannot explain, and  are ignorant of other possibilities, is rather gullible and silly in the extreme. 

[Endercreeper01]

2 minutes ago, beecee said:

And for you to say that something is supernatural simply because you cannot explain, and  are ignorant of other possibilities, is rather gullible and silly in the extreme. 

There are no other possibilities. How can there be? That is what I am saying.

[beecee]

Just now, Endercreeper01 said:

There are no other possibilities. How can there be? That is what I am saying.

How do you know there are no other possibilities? [1] the mind playing tricks...[2] The light/atmosphere playing tricks...[3] a lucid dream..[4] Hard-wired in mythical thinking due to childhood brain washing.

https://www.verywellmind.com/ways-your-brain-plays-tricks-on-you-2795042

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-our-mind-play-tricks-on-us-at-all

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jodie-rogers/perception-how-your-mind-_b_12615584.html

[Endercreeper01]

2 minutes ago, beecee said:

How do you know there are no other possibilities? [1] the mind playing tricks...[2] The light/atmosphere playing tricks...[3] a lucid dream..[4] Hard-wired in mythical thinking due to childhood brain washing.

https://www.verywellmind.com/ways-your-brain-plays-tricks-on-you-2795042

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-our-mind-play-tricks-on-us-at-all

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jodie-rogers/perception-how-your-mind-_b_12615584.html

A near death experience is a vivid, detailed experience. There is no way that it can be compared to "the mind playing tricks on you".

[beecee]

13 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

A near death experience is a vivid, detailed experience. There is no way that it can be compared to "the mind playing tricks on you".

Do you have some reputable, professional evidence to support that? Or are you just going to continue to claim it willy nilly.

[Endercreeper01]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

Do you have some reputable, professional evidence to support that? Or are you just going to continue to claim it willy nilly.

It's not very hard to see to any reasonable person. Once you actually know about everything that people have experienced during a NDE, it becomes obvious that it has to be something significant.

These are vivid, detailed experiences. 

[pzkpfw]

Most people will experience or perceive movement in this image.

That does not prove that there is any. 

 

 

[Prometheus]

On 10/23/2018 at 10:37 AM, kozalak said:

The question is invalid to begin with, let alone the idea of trying to provide scientific proof for a product of belief. 

I don't agree with this, i think it's perfectly reasonable to ask the question. It's just that there is now an utter lack of evidence that we can quite confidently say no, but in our ancestors time it was far less certain.

 

On 10/23/2018 at 10:37 AM, kozalak said:

I am sure you guys are familiar with the phrase 'what the dog sees'.  When we are extremely scared, the panick and shock we experience turns us into the most dumb animal, trying to get out that situation at all cost, not some sensitive, highly aware and conscious agent recording his emotions and thoughts.

I came across some research looking into people's behaviour during terrorist attacks and they found that most people acted quite rationally rather than turning into a quivering flock of panicked animals. I'll try to dig out the research.

 

5 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It is certainly evidence to any reasonable person. There is no denying that many people have had these experiences and that they mean something.

I can see how they would be life changing experiences to many people, and they might convince some people in the afterlife. But first, anecdote is not evidence, second we just ignore all those people who didn't have near death experiences despite being near death (i.e. the vast majority), third the reports people give vary by culture and religion, which would only happen if Terry Pratchett was right in his novels and whatever you believe will happen after death is what happens, and fourth we ignore those people who have NDEs and place no special meaning to it.

 

3 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

There are no other possibilities. How can there be? That is what I am saying.

You've had dreams before right? Both clear and vivid? Are they evidence of anything?

[beecee]

2 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It's not very hard to see to any reasonable person. Once you actually know about everything that people have experienced during a NDE, it becomes obvious that it has to be something significant.

These are vivid, detailed experiences. 

Deny it till the cows come home, the fats are that we have no evidence of such.

[Strange]

3 hours ago, Endercreeper01 said:

It's not very hard to see to any reasonable person. Once you actually know about everything that people have experienced during a NDE, it becomes obvious that it has to be something significant.

These are vivid, detailed experiences. 

It is easy for any reasonable person to see that you only think this because you are following what you have been told, like a sheep unable to think for yourself.

[Endercreeper01]

5 hours ago, pzkpfw said:

Most people will experience or perceive movement in this image.

That does not prove that there is any. 

 

 

If you had any idea what a near death experience is, you would not be comparing it to an optical illusion.

3 hours ago, Prometheus said:

I don't agree with this, i think it's perfectly reasonable to ask the question. It's just that there is now an utter lack of evidence that we can quite confidently say no, but in our ancestors time it was far less certain.

 

I came across some research looking into people's behaviour during terrorist attacks and they found that most people acted quite rationally rather than turning into a quivering flock of panicked animals. I'll try to dig out the research.

 

I can see how they would be life changing experiences to many people, and they might convince some people in the afterlife. But first, anecdote is not evidence, second we just ignore all those people who didn't have near death experiences despite being near death (i.e. the vast majority), third the reports people give vary by culture and religion, which would only happen if Terry Pratchett was right in his novels and whatever you believe will happen after death is what happens, and fourth we ignore those people who have NDEs and place no special meaning to it.

 

You've had dreams before right? Both clear and vivid? Are they evidence of anything?

What do you mean it isn't "evidence"? When so many people have had these experiences, it's not hard to see that they mean something.

These experience can't simply be dismissed without looking further into them.

3 hours ago, beecee said:

Deny it till the cows come home, the fats are that we have no evidence of such.

Actually, we do have evidence of such. There are many witness testimonies of NDE that establishes that these experiences are really happening to people. You can't deny that people have had these experiences.

2 hours ago, Strange said:

It is easy for any reasonable person to see that you only think this because you are following what you have been told, like a sheep unable to think for yourself.

A real sheep would be the one who follows what the "scientists" say on the issue.

[Prometheus]

5 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

What do you mean it isn't "evidence"? When so many people have had these experiences, it's not hard to see that they mean something.

These experience can't simply be dismissed without looking further into them.

By that reasoning my dreams are evidence i can fly through suns. And walk with my ears. And am master of a far flung space empire. My life is great.

I suggest you take me seriously and look into it before dismissing me.

[Endercreeper01]

7 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

By that reasoning my dreams are evidence i can fly through suns. And walk with my ears. And am master of a far flung space empire. My life is great.

I suggest you take me seriously and look into it before dismissing me.

That's not my reasoning.

My reasoning is that the Near Death Experiences that many have had are significant in that they indicate something fundamental about existence and life. 

If you know what a NDE is, you would know how vivid they are.

[Strange]

26 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

What do you mean it isn't "evidence"? When so many people have had these experiences, it's not hard to see that they mean something.

Actually, we do have evidence of such. There are many witness testimonies of NDE that establishes that these experiences are really happening to people. You can't deny that people have had these experiences.

It is evidence that people have the experiences. That is all.

It is not evidence of afterlife or anything else. The most likely explanation is just biochemical activity in the brain. This is supported by the fact that people have similar experiences where near-death is not involved (drugs, brain damage, illness, etc.)

29 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

A real sheep would be the one who follows what the "scientists" say on the issue.

Why are you even posting your ignorant drivel on a science forum.

Scientists look at evidence. Your are just repeating the nonsense you read in a holy book or that some man in a silly hat told you. Grow up. Learn to think.

13 minutes ago, Endercreeper01 said:

If you know what a NDE is, you would know how vivid they are.

Dreams are equally vivid. As are hallucinations caused by disease or drugs.

[Prometheus]

Just now, Endercreeper01 said:

That's not my reasoning.

My reasoning is that the Near Death Experiences that many have had are significant in that they indicate something fundamental about existence and life. 

If you know what a NDE is, you would know how vivid they are.

I've had some very vivid out of body experiences. I've talked to many people around death in many circumstances  (was a nurse for over ten years). Honestly the most profound experiences in my life occurred in dreams; they were as vivid as anything else i've ever experienced. I find the idea that only you truly understand how profound these experiences are while the sceptics wallow in darkness beneath you most unedifying. 

No one is denying some people experience something. Being near death is a significant event for anyone, whether or not they have a NDE. I'm sure people will construct meaning from any visions they have, just as i am able to construct  meaning from my dreams.  But none of this is evidence of life after death. It is evidence that the dying brain is capable of activity; unsurprising to anyone who has experienced such visions before.

 

[Gees]

Dimreepr;

 

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 6:41 AM, dimreepr said:

Unless you believe in a soul it comes from the brain (at least mine) rationally.

No. This is not rational; it is not even Rationalism -- it is Reductionism.

The only thing that "soul" and "brain" have in common is consciousness, and you are trying to reduce consciousness to one or the other, which is what Monism v Dualism has been trying to do for a thousand years. It can not be done.

The brain is a big-time player in consciousness and can not be removed from it, as the brain is what processes consciousness and magnifies it, amplifies it, absorbs incoming information, and even causes a reflection or mirroring of consciousness, which is (I suspect) what causes self awareness.

The "soul" is what Religion interprets as the "self". When Philosophy or Science discusses this aspect of consciousness, they use the term "self" rather than the term "soul". We are talking semantics here. If you use the proper term, self v brain, you will find that it takes a lot of the heat out of the argument and makes it much more rational. Are you your self or are you your brain? I suspect you are both.

I also suspect that self is a property of awareness. Since awareness does not seem to be possible without matter, then that would also make self a property of the brain. For anyone who has trouble following this, it means that the "soul" would also be a property of the body/brain.

Gee

 

Strange;

 

On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 9:08 AM, Strange said:

Of course it doesn't.

If I dream of being in Africa, does that mean I am in Africa? If I hallucinate a miniature alien flying past on a golf ball, does that mean that mini aliens piloting golf balls exist? 

All you are doing here is moving the goal posts. In all truth, if you do not know the difference between dreams, hallucinations, illusions, and awareness, then maybe you should look them up, or stop posting in these kinds of threads. If you are silly enough to think that Parnia does not know the difference just because you do not know the difference, you are deluding yourself.

 

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Almost everything we perceive is an illusion created by the brain. Normally, it lets us pretend we are looking out of our eyes at the world outside. Sometimes it tells us the we are looking at ourselves from outside. That is still our brain, inside our head doing it.

I never thought I would find a 'science guy' spouting illusion theories, as they tend to dismiss Science as irrelevant. 

I never denied that the brain is inside the head. Do you remember the cell phone metaphor? Did I at any time state that the message came from anywhere except the cell phone? No. I did not. You are practicing what I call "scab picking philosophy", which is where you scan the post for any flaw that you might find, whether real or imagined, then respond without trying to understand what I actually stated. Try reading my posts for understanding, ignore what you imagine I mean, and focus on what I actually state. Then think about it a while and respond with something that is worth reading.

 

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Oh right. Presumably you can understand it but it is beyond the rest of us poor mortals.

Here you are using sarcasm. Do you know that sarcasm is just veiled anger? It is also a taunt, which is one step away from bullying. 

If you actually read what I stated, you know that I warned against coming to "some very bad and invalid conclusions". If you do not understand how people can do this, then just look up five or six different theories of consciousness, where people have come to conclusions that are only valid in some ways to some degree, but are not a comprehensive theory of consciousness. Some are religious, some are not, but all are lacking in being a comprehensive explanation. I avoid coming to conclusions, and only work on finding simple truths that can lead to understanding. I also noted toward the bottom of that post: "There are still too many questions that do not have answers." Without those answers, an intelligent person will know that valid conclusions are not going to be possible.

 

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So no evidence then. As I thought.

You would dismiss any evidence just like you dismissed the citations that were included in the OP, so it would be a ridiculous act for me to try to provide them.

 

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Entirely rational. We may have trouble defining exactly what it is (or whether it exists) but all the evidence shows it arises in the brain and no evidence is consistent with it existing independently of the brain. And, no, the beliefs of religious adherents is not evidence.

It amazes me that you can use the word, rational, at the same time that you explain that you don't know exactly what it is, are not sure that it exists, but you know where it comes from. Very funny, Strange.

OK I'll bite. Consciousness comes from the brain, so since spiders, flies, and mosquitos all have brains, that means they are conscious. Right? I can't wait for your "rational" answer.

Gee

 

[Strange]

16 minutes ago, Gees said:

It amazes me that you can use the word, rational, at the same time that you explain that you don't know exactly what it is, are not sure that it exists, but you know where it comes from.

I have no idea why that should amaze you. For a long time people didn’t know exactly what the sun was, but they still knew where it was. 

17 minutes ago, Gees said:

Consciousness comes from the brain, so since spiders, flies, and mosquitos all have brains, that means they are conscious.

That isn’t a logical argument (surprising, from someone who pretends to be a philosopher). There are both quantitative and qualitative differences.  It is a bit like saying that diamonds, water and the sun are all made of atoms and so should behave the same.

But of course they might all have some level of consciousness. We have no way of knowing. And it depends how you define consciousness. 

[Prometheus]

10 hours ago, Gees said:

You would dismiss any evidence just like you dismissed the citations that were included in the OP, so it would be a ridiculous act for me to try to provide them.

The 'evidence' has been deconstructed and found wanting in other posts. No one has yet argued against this.

[DrP]

imo- They are 'evidence'...  but not proof.  Once the evidence has been scrutinised though it becomes clear that it is poor evidence as it can all be explained with how the mind works and any actual testing turns up a big negative....  All these NDEs and out of body experiences and astral projections are all imaginations...  for example - if I write a number on the floor in one room the person claiming to astrally project there cannot read that number. They aren't actually there....  it is in their mind.   You could run the experiment 50 times and someone might fluke the answer...  this is only proof of fluke.  If the person were to get 50 out of 50 then we can start to take it seriously.