Strange Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 18 minutes ago, MassMan said: They think it's evil but their hearts and minds are polluted by their ideologies. This is the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Klaynos Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, MassMan said: Abraham cried when he is going to sacrifice his son. God only test Abraham's faith on Him. Abraham's son was not sacrifice afterall. Modern changes to the story. He was really happy for the chance.
Strange Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 8 minutes ago, MassMan said: Abraham cried when he is going to sacrifice his son. God only test Abraham's faith on Him. Abraham's son was not sacrifice afterall. 1. That is mythology so no reason to think it happened. 2. The fact that one person did not want to sacrifice their son does not prove that nobody ever did. (You might want to look at Central American cultures.)
MassMan Posted September 24, 2018 Author Posted September 24, 2018 I just want to say that originally we know right and wrong but because of evil desires our hearts are clouded in doing right and we are drag to do wrong. The world is the testimony of the truth of Christianity. Our world is full of evil because it falls into the curse of sin. Our first parents rebelled against our creator. They rebel because they were carried by temptation and evil came to their lives and to this world. This also happens to us. If we are carried by temptation evil will come to our lives. It is my testimony to my life. I was addicted to pornography but He healed me from addiction. He saves me from evil. Thanks be to God for He sent His son to redeem us from evil and destruction and give us everlasting life.
Strange Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 1 minute ago, MassMan said: I just want to say that originally we know right and wrong but because of evil desires our hearts are clouded in doing right and we are drag to do wrong. You can say that. But as this is a science forum, you will need to provide some evidence for it. Can you do that? 2 minutes ago, MassMan said: The world is the testimony of the truth of Christianity. No, it is the testimony of the truth of Islam. Or is it evidence for the truth of Hinduism? Or Shinto? I forget which. They can't all be right, can they. 3 minutes ago, MassMan said: Thanks be to God Reported for preaching.
MassMan Posted September 24, 2018 Author Posted September 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, Strange said: 1. That is mythology so no reason to think it happened. 2. The fact that one person did not want to sacrifice their son does not prove that nobody ever did. (You might want to look at Central American cultures.) Central American cultures have different religion compared to Judaism of the time of Abraham. Israel is the chosen people of God. Central American are gentiles. They are farout in knowing the true God. Their hearts were already clouded. -2
studiot Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 I expect some Spartans cried when they left (some of their) children to die on the mountainside. Furthermore we have documented evidence of this practice. Recently a doctor had to climb up to a gantry on the Severn Bridge, to cut off a trapped worker's arm that could be freed, just so that the rest of him could be saved. Was that doctor evil or his heart clouded or what? Quote Stafford Beer If I told you that a man ran out from a carpet shop onto the street an began slapping and banging a lady all over, Then ran back into the shop whereupon he grabbed a carpet, rushed out again, knocked the lady down and rolled her up in the carpet Which he continued beating. Would you say that was good, bad or indifferent? Spoiler If I now told you that the ladie's cloths had caught fire what would you then think? 1
MassMan Posted September 24, 2018 Author Posted September 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, Strange said: You can say that. But as this is a science forum, you will need to provide some evidence for it. Can you do that? No, it is the testimony of the truth of Islam. Or is it evidence for the truth of Hinduism? Or Shinto? I forget which. They can't all be right, can they. Reported for preaching. Deep in your heart you know that certain things are right and wrong. I know if I kill you it's really wrong and you would also think it's wrong. Only Christianity is consistent in explaining our world today. It is full of suffering and evil because it really a fallen world. No I am not preaching, it is the ellaboration of my explanation. -2
Phi for All Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 2 hours ago, MassMan said: Deep in your heart you know that certain things are right and wrong. I know if I kill you it's really wrong and you would also think it's wrong. You didn't listen when it was mentioned that there are times when killing another person can be a mercy, or the only thing available to do. You have murder in mind, but you just refer to killing as evil, and not all killing is evil. Do you understand what I and others are saying? Also, try not to tell me what is "deep in my heart". You have absolutely no idea what is there, and it's sloppy science to base arguments on unsubstantiated information or guesswork. 2 hours ago, MassMan said: Only Christianity is consistent in explaining our world today. It is full of suffering and evil because it really a fallen world. Wow, I don't like your worldview at all, sorry to say. Fallen world? The only choice is supernatural guidance and absolution of my sinful nature?! And by the way, Christianity's explanations are FAR from consistent, and don't really explain much at all about our world today. In particular, I can cite passages from old and new testaments that are conflicting in their statements, and quite obviously based on misconceptions one would expect to find in Bronze Age authors. 2 hours ago, MassMan said: No I am not preaching, it is the ellaboration of my explanation. Preaching is also talking AT people about something you believe in without supportive reasoning and evidence. To persuade us to your way of thinking, you don't use rational thoughts, but instead offer supernatural guesswork. I can support the scientific explanations I have with mounds of substantiated evidence from observations and experimentation. The predictive power of scientific explanations is incredible, and much more demonstrable than the efforts of your god. If I can show you a great deal of evidence that shows most of the reasons you have faith in your god are wrong or misunderstood, would you change your mind? If not, then you're just preaching. I assure you, if you could have your god become observable to science so they could gather evidence in a consistent way to support trust in his existence, I would change MY mind. We're getting close to being able to grow an amputated leg back. For all the claims of the Christian god being able to heal the sick, he's never once regrown an arm or a leg for one of his faithful. I offer this as evidence that there may not be any god(s) after all. I don't say there is no god, I'm just saying I'll stick to my belief in the intelligence and sensibilities of humans until a god becomes just as observable.
Itoero Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 3 hours ago, MassMan said: Only Christianity is consistent in explaining our world today. It is full of suffering and evil because it really a fallen world. You do know about atheist/homosexual discrimination done by Christians? And what about all the pedophile 'catholic' priests?
swansont Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 3 hours ago, MassMan said: Deep in your heart you know that certain things are right and wrong. I know if I kill you it's really wrong and you would also think it's wrong. Only Christianity is consistent in explaining our world today. It is full of suffering and evil because it really a fallen world. No I am not preaching, it is the ellaboration of my explanation. ! Moderator Note Yes, it's preaching. And yes, it's against the rules. 4 hours ago, MassMan said: It is truly evil and worst if you kill it without any reason. ! Moderator Note That wasn't your original claim. Orwell phrased it as "No animal shall kill any other animal without cause." Let's not move any more goal posts.
John Cuthber Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 6 hours ago, MassMan said: Deep in your heart you know that certain things are right and wrong. Yes. And I know this in spite of what I was taught by the Bible. I know it is wrong to keep slaves. I know it is wrong to burn women to death because someone claims they are witches. I know it is wrong to murder men for being gay. People like me- who actually know right from wrong- had to work for millennia to get Christianity to realise these simple truths. Aren't you a bit embarrassed to be on the "slow learner" side of the argument? 1
jfoldbar Posted September 24, 2018 Posted September 24, 2018 massman. religion cant 'explain' anything unless you already believe it, and then it can suddenly 'explain' everything. regardless if that explanation is even possible or not. for an explanation to be considered universally acceptable, it would have be understood, accepted and demonstrable by all. i.e. the explanation of me having 5 apples, getting 2 more apples from you, means i now have 7 apples. this explanation of why i now have 7 apples is universally accepted by all. however this same idea for a christian is different. for example, all of the animals went into an ark, and then went out and went everywhere in the world. basic maths says this cant possibly happen. so, this explanation may be accepted by a christian because he is ok with the maths being impossible because the "god works in mysterious ways" covers all inconsistencies. however for the man who will accept that for something to be true it must be mathematically possible, he will not accept this explanation. so, while the bible may explain things for the people who believe it, it does not explain anything for the people who acknowledge that the inconsistencies in it demonstrate that it is a book that should be taken with a big pinch of salt. these people dont need any 'god' to guide their way. their conscience is their way. i reckon 99% of people would agree that there is a lot of evil in our world. this is not evidence of anything except that there is evil. and the only escape, is when we die. one could argue, that an all knowing god, knew that he was creating evil even before he made the world. the bible says that he knows all, so he therefore knew long before he made us that he was putting into place the recipe for evil, and then allowed it. wouldnt that then make him the evil one? why are we the evil ones for being exactly as he made us? and, if things like natural disasters are evil, to what extant? for example, the 2004 tsunami. if this is an evil thing, what it the evil part? is it the wave, the size of the wave, the fact that people lived there. because it was water? is water evil if it is in wave form? what is the height of a wave for it to be considered evil? are surfers evil for messing with them? if a guy falls off a bridge and drowns, was it the water that was evil, or the rusty handrail, or the gravity? because god made all of these? bad things happen, doesnt mean the explanation is evil, or the devil. 1
MassMan Posted September 25, 2018 Author Posted September 25, 2018 19 hours ago, Phi for All said: You didn't listen when it was mentioned that there are times when killing another person can be a mercy, or the only thing available to do. You have murder in mind, but you just refer to killing as evil, and not all killing is evil. Do you understand what I and others are saying? Yes I listen to that. It could be right to kill a person to save the many and it could also be wrong because you kill that person. Only God has the right to take life not us. He has the right to take our life because He is the One who give us life. God could use evil to bring greater good. If we encounter evil in our lives it doesn't mean it is all evil, it has a purpose to bring good to yourself. As what apostle Paul said, the afflictions or sufferings of Christians in this world are not worthy to be compared to the weight of glory which shall be revealed by God. The problem of evil is not really an objection to theism, paradoxically, God is only the answer to the evil around us for He will redeem us.
Strange Posted September 25, 2018 Posted September 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, MassMan said: It could be right to kill a person to save the many and it could also be wrong because you kill that person. So you agree. It is not absolute. 7 minutes ago, MassMan said: Only God has the right to take life not us. He has the right to take our life because He is the One who give us life. Stop preaching
MassMan Posted September 25, 2018 Author Posted September 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Strange said: So you agree. It is not absolute. Stop preaching I don't really mean it is not absolute. I mean it could be right in our eyes, but the rescuer kill a person to save the many is wrong in the eyes of God because He is the only One who has the right to take life. The rescuer has no right to take life of that person. It is only in our perspective that it is right. 14 hours ago, jfoldbar said: massman. religion cant 'explain' anything unless you already believe it, and then it can suddenly 'explain' everything. regardless if that explanation is even possible or not. for an explanation to be considered universally acceptable, it would have be understood, accepted and demonstrable by all. i.e. the explanation of me having 5 apples, getting 2 more apples from you, means i now have 7 apples. this explanation of why i now have 7 apples is universally accepted by all. however this same idea for a christian is different. for example, all of the animals went into an ark, and then went out and went everywhere in the world. basic maths says this cant possibly happen. so, this explanation may be accepted by a christian because he is ok with the maths being impossible because the "god works in mysterious ways" covers all inconsistencies. however for the man who will accept that for something to be true it must be mathematically possible, he will not accept this explanation. so, while the bible may explain things for the people who believe it, it does not explain anything for the people who acknowledge that the inconsistencies in it demonstrate that it is a book that should be taken with a big pinch of salt. these people dont need any 'god' to guide their way. their conscience is their way. i reckon 99% of people would agree that there is a lot of evil in our world. this is not evidence of anything except that there is evil. and the only escape, is when we die. one could argue, that an all knowing god, knew that he was creating evil even before he made the world. the bible says that he knows all, so he therefore knew long before he made us that he was putting into place the recipe for evil, and then allowed it. wouldnt that then make him the evil one? why are we the evil ones for being exactly as he made us? and, if things like natural disasters are evil, to what extant? for example, the 2004 tsunami. if this is an evil thing, what it the evil part? is it the wave, the size of the wave, the fact that people lived there. because it was water? is water evil if it is in wave form? what is the height of a wave for it to be considered evil? are surfers evil for messing with them? if a guy falls off a bridge and drowns, was it the water that was evil, or the rusty handrail, or the gravity? because god made all of these? bad things happen, doesnt mean the explanation is evil, or the devil. It is not God who created evil. It is cause by His rebellious angels. Evil is the consequence freewill. Evil is the privation of good.
Strange Posted September 25, 2018 Posted September 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, MassMan said: wrong in the eyes of God Which god? Mine loves killing people. 10 minutes ago, MassMan said: It is not God who created evil. It is cause by His rebellious angels. Why didn’t he stop them? I thought your god was supposed to be powerful. I guess he is not as clever as he claims.
MassMan Posted September 25, 2018 Author Posted September 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Strange said: Which god? Mine loves killing people. Why didn’t he stop them? I thought your god was supposed to be powerful. I guess he is not as clever as he claims. He really stop them. He stop their rebellion and He threw them in this world. The rebellion of this fallen angels is not yet done. They knew that they will be thrown to the lake of fire. The fight is still going on and sadly humanity became involved in this fight because of our first parents. Hell is not really for us humans it is intended only for Satan and his fallen angels. And I will add in the rescuer, if we see that it is right to kill one person to save the many in the eyes of God it is wrong. The rescuer has no right to get the life of that person. But if not killing that person those many will die but they die not because they killed by human but they die because God get their lives which is more justifiable because God has the right to take life not humans.
jfoldbar Posted September 25, 2018 Posted September 25, 2018 17 hours ago, MassMan said: It is not God who created evil. It is cause by His rebellious angels. Evil is the consequence freewill. Evil is the privation of good. so if it is caused by these "angels", then didnt god create them? so he therefore created them evil, or capable of evil. if evil is the consequence of free will, then by creating us with free will he has created us evil. so he created us evil, and then decided we should be punished for being the way he created us. and yet some call this act "all loving"?
Strange Posted September 25, 2018 Posted September 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, MassMan said: He really stop them. He stop their rebellion and He threw them in this world. Well that’s pretty mean of him. He didn’t want them around so he gave them to us. Sounds like a selfish bastard. 22 minutes ago, MassMan said: God has the right to take life not humans. Who put him in charge? I didn’t vote for him. Your god sounds like a spoiled kid who grew up to be a bullying dictator who doesn’t care about humans.
MassMan Posted September 25, 2018 Author Posted September 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, jfoldbar said: so if it is caused by these "angels", then didnt god create them? so he therefore created them evil, or capable of evil. if evil is the consequence of free will, then by creating us with free will he has created us evil. so he created us evil, and then decided we should be punished for being the way he created us. and yet some call this act "all loving"? Ok brother let me explain. God create free creatures because only free creatures can experience love and glory of God. God did not create robots because it is not capable of awareness. You can't make free creatures do only what is right, that's logically impossible.
jfoldbar Posted September 25, 2018 Posted September 25, 2018 17 hours ago, MassMan said: The fight is still going on and sadly humanity became involved in this fight because of our first parents. yes, sad for us because we are the ones that are suffering. but god created adam and eve, knowing they would stuff it for everyone, he created the entity known as the devil, knowing what he would do, and yet some how the whole justification for that "evil" act is "but he loves us" who is more evil, the one who done the evil act, or the one that allowed it to happen?
DrP Posted September 25, 2018 Posted September 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, jfoldbar said: so he created us evil, and then decided we should be punished for being the way he created us. and yet some call this act "all loving"? Except he didn't - because he is a figment of people's imagination brought on by superstition, mis-drawn conclusions, ignorance and lies told to control large groups of people. 1
jfoldbar Posted September 25, 2018 Posted September 25, 2018 16 hours ago, MassMan said: Ok brother let me explain. God create free creatures because only free creatures can experience love and glory of God. God did not create robots because it is not capable of awareness. You can't make free creatures do only what is right, that's logically impossible. is it really a free creature, if it has an anchor tied around its neck and is punished for being free?
MassMan Posted September 25, 2018 Author Posted September 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Strange said: Who put him in charge? I didn’t vote for him. Your god sounds like a spoiled kid who grew up to be a bullying dictator who doesn’t care about humans. God has the right because He is the one who gave us life. And true happiness is not really in this world but in the kingdom of God.
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