Big bangs are happening all the time (split from The Logic Of The Big Bang)

[László Hajós]

26 minutes ago, Strange said:

What can be pulling from outside? (And how is th

"Pulling" from outside is the gravity of the matter (example large black holes) which is from other universes.

26 minutes ago, Strange said:

And there is no such thing as pushing gravity.

This is just the way I called it. That is not gravity, it is the force causing the space to expand (behaves like a "negative" or opposite gravity)

26 minutes ago, Strange said:

At what distance will this be measurable? And how large is the difference? (In other words, why haven’t we seen it yet?)

I don't know the answer on that. That depends on how big is our universe and how big is the observable universe compared to that. If the observable universe is only a small part of the whole universe (which I think it is probably like that) than the difference would be smaller. It also depends on the position of the observable universe. If its on the "edge" of the universe than that force would be bigger than in the middle. Lastly, it depends on the distance and mass of the external matter.

Edited October 2, 2018 by László Hajós

[Strange]

14 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

Pulling" from outside is the gravity of the matter (example large black holes) which is from other universes.

Gravity doesn’t work like that (see shell theorem). 

14 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

This is just the way I called it. That is not gravity, it is the force causing the space to expand (behaves like a "negative" or opposite gravity)

So this is a force you have invented. 

 

[László Hajós]

11 minutes ago, Strange said:

Gravity doesn’t work like that (see shell theorem). 

Could you please clarify what you mean by this.

Our universe is not a ball nor it is a solid object. It is a random points of objects. And an outside force, like example a large black hole would be next to our universes edge from example 10^12 light years away, has nothing to do with shell theorem as far as I know

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

Our universe is not a ball nor it is a solid object. It is a random points of objects. And an outside force, like example a large black hole would be next to our universes edge from example 10^12 light years away, has nothing to do with shell theorem as far as I know

Well, it could certainly be stretched (locally)  by an external mass. But you have no evidence that is happening, or that any such exyernal mass exists (or even that there is an “outside”). 

It is all just fantasy. And you are not able to make any testable (ie quantified) predictions  

What is wrong with the current model: it is based on theory and is supported by multiple lines of evidence. What is the advantage of trying to replace this with domething that has no basis in theory or evidence?

[László Hajós]

23 minutes ago, Strange said:

Well, it could certainly be stretched (locally)  by an external mass. But you have no evidence that is happening, or that any such exyernal mass exists (or even that there is an “outside”). 

It is all just fantasy. And you are not able to make any testable (ie quantified) predictions  

What is wrong with the current model: it is based on theory and is supported by multiple lines of evidence. What is the advantage of trying to replace this with domething that has no basis in theory or evidence?

You are correct, I can not prove that this force exists and I can not prove that there is an outside. Maybe in a few billion years we would be able to prove the force if humanity survives. But probably we will never see what is "outside" even in 10 or 100 billion years, if we survive.

23 minutes ago, Strange said:

What is wrong with the current model: it is based on theory and is supported by multiple lines of evidence. What is the advantage of trying to replace this with domething that has no basis in theory or evidence?

My hyphotesis accepts everything in the current model. It just adds to it.

Edited October 2, 2018 by László Hajós

[Strange]

18 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

My hyphotesis accepts everything in the current model. It just adds to it.

It contradicts several aspects of the current model. And I don’t see what it adds. 

[László Hajós]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

It contradicts several aspects of the current model. And I don’t see what it adds. 

What does it contradict?

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

What does it contradict?

The two immediately obvious ones are:

You say there is a void outside the universe  

You describe matter exploding from a central point into empty space. 

[Ghideon]

1 hour ago, László Hajós said:

I don't know why you think that in my model space is not expanding.

Sorry, my bad! I assumed that because I couldn't figure out how the geometry is working, maybe you can explain?

3 hours ago, László Hajós said:

The area closer to the edge of our universe would expand slightly faster than the area inside the universe. But these external forces dont cause any space time expansion, it would be only like a gravitational pulling force. Space time expansion is caused only by the internal "pushing" force.

Assumptions:
1: Space inside the many universes* is expanding, just like in the mainstream model of big bang. 
2: Galaxies at the edge of the universes may be pulled out into an empty void, while also getting further and further form the centre due to the expanding space*

If above assumptions about the model are correct, what mechanism allows for the following two things:
A: The void between universes allows for a smaller and smaller distance between universes, so the universes can eventually collide.
B: The void must, at the same time, expand to make room for expanding universes. 

I can't figure out how the void between universes behaves, I think you need to provide a mathematic model. 

*) Standard disclaimer: This is not my understanding of the generally accepted model, its my understanding of the proposed model in this topic

[László Hajós]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

You say there is a void outside the universe

What I say is; this "void" is not really a void as the meaning of the word. It is the same space like in our universe which is not expanding and could contain some huge black holes from dead and very old universes in it in small scale (closer) and other universes like ours (some younger some the same age, some older) in large scale (further).

[Strange]

19 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

What I say is; this "void" is not really a void as the meaning of the word. It is the same space like in our universe which is not expanding and could contain some huge black holes from dead and very old universes in it in small scale (closer) and other universes like ours (some younger some the same age, some older) in large scale (further).

Irrelevant. The current model is based on the idea that the entire universe is (and always has been) uniformly full of matter. 

A universe with matter exploding from a central point would behave very differently. Apart from the fact it would not be homogeneous and isotropic (as we observe) it is not clear that it would expand as you claim (expansion depends on a uniform distribution of matter). 

[László Hajós]

1 hour ago, Ghideon said:

A: The void between universes allows for a smaller and smaller distance between universes, so the universes can eventually collide.
B: The void must, at the same time, expand to make room for expanding universes. 

 

In this model one important thing is that the space expansion (by the forces inside the universe, the peaks from the big bang, which I described before) will not go on forewer, they will stop in the far future. 

The "void" or space between expanding universes stays the same. Two neighboring expanding universes edges would always be the same distance from eachother until they expand (if there is nothing between them). But when expansion stops, then the supermassive black holes which remain from the dead universes will: get closer to the edge of an expanding universe by force of its gravity and starts to pull in the mass from it, or merge with another supermassive black holes.

The void, the space between the universes doesnt need to expand, only the space inside the universe expands.

Once again, try to think about it like the space is a line. A mass is a dip in the line (pulls it down). In the expanding universe this line is pulled up (result of the big bang) between the masses, this comes down slowly (straightens) allowing the space to expand. Between two universes the line is straight (if empty). The lenght of the line between these expanding universes would stay the same lenght.

And as I said before, in this model the line (or fabric in 2D) would always stay the same lenght in global scale. It can be pulled down (and then straighten) or pushed up (and then straighten), the total lenght is always the same. In other words: space is an exact ininite, and also in this space energy is an exact infinite.

24 minutes ago, Strange said:

Irrelevant. The current model is based on the idea that the entire universe is (and always has been) uniformly full of matter. 

A universe with matter exploding from a central point would behave very differently. Apart from the fact it would not be homogeneous and isotropic (as we observe) it is not clear that it would expand as you claim (expansion depends on a uniform distribution of matter). 

Well, than I dont agree with that, you are right. But in the same way that can also not be proved, like my model so I and anybody alse dont have to accept it. We dont know what happend before or right at the start of the expansion.

Once again (I have already explained this before) this is not at all like an explosion. It is a release of energy and space time. It is from a central point but behaves totally different.

And if you think that it is not from a singularity (central point) than you can expain it to me how else can it happen? 

Edited October 2, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

23 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

The void, the space between the universes doesnt need to expand, only the space inside the universe expands.

Ok! Lets say a universe has a circumference of 1 Ly (Light year) when measured along the edge from inside the universe. Along the outside, seen from the void, the same universe has a circumference of 1 Ly. Space in the universe expands so circumference measured inside is now 2 Ly. Space outside the universe, in the void, does not expand. The circumference in the void is still 1 Ly. Please explain how this works.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Ghideon
clarifying

[Strange]

17 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

In this model one important thing is that the space expansion (by the forces inside the universe

You say you accept GR etc but the expansion in the Big Bang model does not involve a “force”. In fact, it is what happens in the absence of force. 

19 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

But in the same way that can also not be proved, like my model so I and anybody alse dont hawe to accept it.

There is masses of evidence for the Big Bang model (theories are never proved) and no ne at all for yours. 

So I know which I accept. 

[beecee]

15 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

And if you think that it is not from a singularity (central point) than you can expain it to me how else can it happen? 

Quote

Well, than I dont agree with that, you are right. But in the same way that can also not be proved, like my model so I and anybody alse dont hawe to accept it. We dont know what happend before or right at the start of the expansion

Because all that we observe was packed to within the volume of an atomic nucleus and then started to expand. Taking the analogy of the 2D surface of a balloon being blown up to represent 3D space, where is the center of the explosion/expansion?

And of course we observe the universe over large scales to be homogenous and isotropic.

[László Hajós]

22 minutes ago, Strange said:

You say you accept GR etc but the expansion in the Big Bang model does not involve a “force”. In fact, it is what happens in the absence of force. 

I call it force. Or I can call it spacetime peak, or hill. Does't matter what is it called., it is there.

22 minutes ago, Strange said:

So I know which I accept. 

It is your right to accept what you think as correct, I wont try to change that.

23 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Ok! Lets say a universe has a circumference of 1 Ly (Light year) when measured along the edge from inside the universe. Along the outside, seen from the void, the same universe has a circumference of 1 Ly. Space in the universe expands so circumference measured inside is now 2 Ly. Space outside the universe, in the void, does not expand. The circumference in the void is still 1 Ly. 

I see you don't understand what I mean. Space outside of the universe wont expand it will be "pushed away" by the expanding universe. Again, the easyest is to imagine it in a line. A is a point in the void, B is one edge of the universe, C is the other edge. AB is example 5 ly. AB is a solid straight line. BC distance is 1 ly first, the line between BC is not straight and not solid. It has dips and peaks. The total of the dips will always stay the same  (energy or mass) but the peaks slowly push down straightening. BC grows to 2 ly, and pushes AB solid line away

33 minutes ago, beecee said:

Taking the analogy of the 2D surface of a balloon being blown up to represent 3D space, where is the center of the explosion/expansion?

The centre would be exacly there where the ballon was compacted into a single point.

36 minutes ago, beecee said:

And of course we observe the universe over large scales to be homogenous and isotropic.

We can only observe a small part of the universe, and even this small part is not totaly homogenous

Edited October 2, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

28 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

A is a point in the void, B is one edge of the universe, C is the other edge. AB is example 5 ly. AB is a solid straight line. BC distance is 1 ly first, the line between BC is not straight and not solid. It has dips and peaks. The total of the dips will always stay the same  (energy or mass) but the peaks slowly push down straightening. BC grows to 2 ly, and pushes AB solid line away

Ok! Then the following apply? Lets have the same setup as above but let A be a point on the edge of another universe "X". When AB is pushed away when BC grows. AB is solid so universe X is pushed away. What kind of acceleration will be measured inside universe X? 

  

[László Hajós]

14 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Ok! Then the following apply? Lets have the same setup as above but let A be a point on the edge of another universe "X". When AB is pushed away when BC grows. AB is solid so universe X is pushed away. What kind of acceleration will be measured inside universe X? 

There would be no acceleration measured. It is the same like our universe expands faster than speed of light. We on earth right now expanding more than the speed of light away from an other far away point in our universe but we dont feel any acceleration.

You could imagine as follows: if only these two universes and the space between them would exist in the whole world. The line between the universes is in the middle. The line will not move, only X universe growing (from our point of view the closest edge will stay in place and every furthest point in the universe would accelerate faster and faster. The same would we see on the other side in the other universe

Edited October 2, 2018 by László Hajós

[beecee]

53 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

The centre would be exacly there where the ballon was compacted into a single point.

No, it is a 2D analogy representing 4D spacetime....The surface of the balloon represents the three spacial dimensions, and as it is blown up, the fourth time. As per our own 4D spacetime, there is nothing observed outside of it which aligns with both the BB and GR. There is no center of expansion. The skin of the balloon is all there is.

Quote

We can only observe a small part of the universe, and even this small part is not totaly homogenous

The BB applies to the observable universe and over large scales that is observed to be homogenous and isotropic. We have no reason to disbelieve that the 94 billion L/year diameter of the observable universe would/should not apply to the universe/space/time as a whole.

Edited October 2, 2018 by beecee

[László Hajós]

1 minute ago, beecee said:

There is no center of expansion.

I accept your view. Let's agree that we disagree in this. 

[Ghideon]

2 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

You could imagine as follows: if only these two universes and the space between them would exist in the whole world. The line between the universes is in the middle. The line will not move, onnly X universe growing (from our point of view the closest edge will stay in place and every furtest pointin the universe would accelerate faster and faster. The same would we see on the other side in the other unierse

Thanks, but I can't see how the geometry works. I'll try a picture, ugly but hopefully correct.

I reuse the notations from the quote below, and add a point D.

50 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

A is a point in the void, B is one edge of the universe, C is the other edge.

Case I: A 1 Ly (light year) universe. We have the same points A,B and C as in your case and an additional point D. The line AD is 5 Ly.

Case II: The universe has expanded to 2 Ly pushing the solid AB and CD away. How long is line AD according to your model? 

.

[beecee]

On 9/29/2018 at 8:56 AM, László Hajós said:

My hyphotesis is: our world is made of infinite universes, our universe is only one of the infinite. Big bangs are happening all the time, of course huge distances away from eachother. In the so called cold death of our universe the supermassive black holes (from the local galaxy clusters) continue to travel with huge speeds outwards from the centre of our big bang. In the far future some of them will slowly evaporate, but some of them will inevatibly "collide" and merge with other supermassive black holes from other universes. These merging black holes will grow bigger and bigger until they reach a critical mass which results in a new big bang. And this goes on forever in an infinite space. This is only a hyphotesis, nothing more. ( I know that theoretically there is no mass limit for a black hole, but I would love to prove this wrong if I could)

In summing, nice hypothesis, but an hypothesis is all it is. While we have observational evidence for the BB, we do not have any evidence for any other space/time/universes, nor any other BB, nor any knowledge about what occurs within BH's

[László Hajós]

11 minutes ago, beecee said:

We have no reason to disbelieve that the 94 billion L/year diameter of the observable universe would/should not apply to the universe/space/time as a whole.

I am not saying that it is very different. And also I would say that in an other universe with the same age as ours would be very mutch like what we observe. But still, what we observe is not tottaly homogenous even in the largest scale.

7 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Case II: The universe has expanded to 2 Ly pushing the solid AB and CD away. How long is line AD according to your model? 

The answer is very simple, 6  (if we think about it as straight lines as space)

Edited October 2, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

4 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

The answer is very simple, 6

Then how can a 5 Ly distance become 6 Ly? So far you have, as far as I can tell, denied metric expansion of the void and acceleration of stuff that needs to be moved. What mechanism is responsible for the geometry of the void?

 

[László Hajós]

41 minutes ago, beecee said:

In summing, nice hypothesis, but an hypothesis is all it is. While we have observational evidence for the BB, we do not have any evidence for any other space/time/universes, nor any other BB, nor any knowledge about what occurs within BH's

I agree, and probably we will never have any direct evidence of an other universe. We are relatively safe in ours, but trapped.

31 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Then how can a 5 Ly distance become 6 Ly? So far you have, as far as I can tell, denied metric expansion of the void and acceleration of stuff that needs to be moved. What mechanism is responsible for the geometry of the void?

5 ly becomes 6 ly the same way as the space expands in our universe. The line in BC is not straight and can be streched. You are talking about acceleration of stuff which needs to be moved. There is no acceleration of staff, the same way as there is no acceleration of staff in our universe. And stuff, or mass doesn'tt need to be moved, it stayes in the same position, only the "denser" (peaks in straight line) space streightens between ordinary matter, "creating" more space (the remaining "force" or energy from the big bang, peaks in the drawing I made)

If I count the distance between AD, it grows from 5 ly to 6 ly. But if I would measure the line with all the dips and peaks, I would get the same result in booth pictures. Thats why space (sean and not seen) can not be destroyed or created, only distance grows in expansion, not space, space was always there. In other words I could say that in the expansion of our universe the more "dense" space gets less "dense" creating more distance.

This "density" comes from the big bang and in my prediction globaly it should be true that the space is more "dense" where is less ordinary matter (example between galaxies, and even more between galaxy clusters)

Edited October 2, 2018 by László Hajós