Big bangs are happening all the time (split from The Logic Of The Big Bang)

[Ghideon]

I realise that my picture and description failed to describe the issue, sorry for the confusion! 
I’ll try a more detailed version, the initial situation is the same but I have out labels on more points. Hope this one is better

Case I:

A is a point in the void, B is one edge of the universe, C is the other edge, D is a point in the void. Points E and F are in the void, located so that line EF is 5 Ly (Light year). Lines EF and AD are parallel and separated by a distance of 2 Ly.  Lines AE and DF are 2 Ly, parallel and separated by distance of 5 Ly. A 1 Ly universe is located between B and C. Angles at A, D, E and F are 90 degrees.

 

Case II: The universe has expanded to 2 Ly, according to your model the result is that the solid AB and CD are pushed away. Line AD is now 6 Ly. How long is line EF according to your model?

Case II is where I fail to understand the geometry of the void. If distance EF is increasing then there is metric expansion of space between E and F? How are other universes in the void affected?

 

I have also tried to re-read the thread, at this point it is very confusing to make out what your model tries to explain. I suggest you try to define, in detail, each of the concept you use and how they behave. Also please provide the math, it may not be possible to continue the discussion with pictures only. A few issues:

11 hours ago, László Hajós said:

If I count the distance between AD, it grows from 5 ly to 6 ly. But if I would measure the line with all the dips and peaks, I would get the same result in booth pictures.

I cant figure out what this means.

16 hours ago, László Hajós said:

The area closer to the edge of our universe would expand slightly faster than the area inside the universe. But these external forces dont cause any space time expansion, it would be only like a gravitational pulling force. Space time expansion is caused only by the internal "pushing" force.

Please explain area and how distance can increase without metric expansion or moving of objects.

On 2018-10-01 at 1:04 PM, László Hajós said:

In local scale the lenght of the x axis, or space can get longer (expansion, big bang) or shorter (supermassive black hole).

What is a local scale? 

 

 

Here are some examples where I believe you state that the void, the space between universes, does not expand:

13 hours ago, László Hajós said:

It is the same space like in our universe which is not expanding and could contain some huge black holes

 

12 hours ago, László Hajós said:

The "void" or space between expanding universes stays the same.

 

12 hours ago, László Hajós said:

The void, the space between the universes doesnt need to expand, only the space inside the universe expands.

 

12 hours ago, László Hajós said:

Space outside of the universe wont expand it will be "pushed away" by the expanding universe.

 

On 2018-10-02 at 2:06 AM, László Hajós said:

from a huge distance (lets say 10^12 light years) from eachother in a space time which is not expanding between them will pull eachother until they collide an merge?

 

12 hours ago, László Hajós said:

And as I said before, in this model the line (or fabric in 2D) would always stay the same lenght in global scale. It can be pulled down (and then straighten) or pushed up (and then straighten), the total lenght is always the same.

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ghideon
spelling

[László Hajós]

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Case I:

A is a point in the void, B is one edge of the universe, C is the other edge, D is a point in the void. Points E and F are in the void, located so that line EF is 5 Ly (Light year). Lines EF and AD are parallel and separated by a distance of 2 Ly.  Lines AE and DF are 2 Ly, parallel and separated by distance of 5 Ly. A 1 Ly universe is located between B and C. Angles at A, D, E and F are 90 degrees.

 

Case II: The universe has expanded to 2 Ly, according to your model the result is that the solid AB and CD are pushed away. Line AD is now 6 Ly. How long is line EF according to your model?

I have tried to make it more simple in my drawings using 1D line. Now I see what is the confusion.

Your drawing is 2D but the change in the second picture is like it would be 1D. If lines AD and DF stay paralell as you said (and AD EF paralell) than EF is 6 ly, but that wouldn't be the real world result in 2D and the new E and F  and A and D points (on the 2nd picture) are not the same points of space  as in the first picture.

The results are the easyest to explain in a 1D line. The lenght of the line (space-time) will always stay the same. Masses "pull" it down (dips) and the peaks (dark energy, "denser" empty space) "pull" it up.

In 2D this is much more complex. In 2D it would behave like example a points of rubber witch can change position but always stay the same dense and flat with no mass or no dark energy. Dips and peaks are the same but in 2D.

In 3D is the most complex, space time would be like a liquid. Where there is no mass or dark energy (like in the "void") there the space  would be exactly the same density. Where is a mass, example a black hole, the spacetime is "pulled in" and the liquid is not so dense around the mass. Where there are peaks (dark energy) there the empty space is "denser". 

The denser space time is the result of the big bang, and only exist in the universe, not in the "void". And it is slowly getting less dense creating more distance and the result of this is the expansion.

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

I cant figure out what this means.

The line (space time) is not straight. The distance is not the same as all spece in that distance. When you would pull the line it would stay the same lenght (with less peaks) but the distance would grow

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Please explain area and how distance can increase without metric expansion or moving of objects.

The area closer to the edge means the surfice of the universe (or sphere if it would be). As I said distance between masses closer to the edge could grow by: 1 spacetime expansion + gravitational pull from an external mass

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

What is a local scale? 

By local scale I meant example universes. In the universe distances grow, "more" space  is "created". By global scale if I would examine example 10^7 universes and the space between them than the sum of spacetime would stay the same at all times as the sum of energy (or mass) would stay the same

7 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Here are some examples where I believe you state that the void, the space between universes, does not expand:

Yes thats correct, spacetime stays the same "dense" between universes. The "density" of space time changes only in expanding universes (growing) and only by the results of big bangs (shortening) the two cancel eachother. One adds negative, the other positive, sum of the change is 0.  This is global scale. In local scale space time can get shorter by example a black hole growing and changing position but in this case the sum of "density" doesn't change. Example: black hole eats a star. Black hole was 1000, star was 1. Now there is 1001 where the black hole position is.

So sum it up again:

Rule: there is an exact amount of infinite energy which can not be created nor destroyed, in an exact amount of infinite space which can not be created nor destroyed.

Edited October 3, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

I think your reply confirms that the geometry you suggest may not be possible to explain using pictures. Now when I look at the peaks and dips I get the impression that a 1 Ly distance in the universe is not always a 1 Ly distance in the void. 

1 hour ago, László Hajós said:

space  would be exactly the same density.

What is space density? 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ghideon
spelling

[László Hajós]

1 minute ago, Ghideon said:

I think your reply confirms that the geometry you suggest may not be possible to explain using pictures. Now when I look at the peaks and dips I get the impression that a 1 Ly distance in the universe is not always a 1 Ly distance in the void.

That is why I used 1 dimensonal lines for simplicty. Only in 1D stays 1ly a 1ly. In 2D is different, and 3 D is different.

4 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

What is space denisty? 

Spacetime "density". We can see it where there is "less dense" by masses (light distortion). But in empty space where the empty space is "more" empty space, or "denser" empty space, we can not see it (dark energy). More empty space is still an empty space. 

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

Spacetime "density".

You made this up.

Density refers to the amount of "stuff" in a given volume. How can there be different amounts of space in space?

It's nonsense.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Strange

[László Hajós]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

You made this up.

Density refers to the amount of "stuff" in a given volume. How can there be different amounts of space in space?

It's nonsense.

I used the word "density" so that is simpler to understand. Thats why I used " ". Nonsense for you, make sense for me.

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

I used the word "density" so that is simpler to understand. 

OK. So what does it really mean. (Using math would be nice ...)

[László Hajós]

20 minutes ago, Strange said:

OK. So what does it really mean. (Using math would be nice ...)

I cant expain it to you by math at the moment (would be nice if smoeone more clever than me would help me in this), only by words and simple math like before. I use the words "density" or "antigravity" only for explenation reason.

The less "dense" spacetime where there is a mass, you can feel and see the forces of the gravity. These are the dips on a 1D line, or less "dense" liquid in 3D. In 1D example a black hole has 1 mass, this is 1 cm deep dip on the 1D line. Where there is "dense" spacetime or "antigravity" how I called it before, there is a 1 cm peak. This 1 cm peak is slowly getting smaller and "creating" more distance. We can also "feel" and "see" these forces (spacetime expansion, light travels trough slower) but we cant realy examine it (like we cant see directly gravity), it is only an empty space

I will try to make simple mathemathic explanation tonight in a few hours if I will have enough time

Edited October 3, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

 

49 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

That is why I used 1 dimensonal lines for simplicty. Only in 1D stays 1ly a 1ly. In 2D is different, and 3 D is different.

Yes but the 1D simple model seems to fail to explain the geometry you seems to suggest. You say there is no expansion of the void and no acceleration of stuff that needs to be moved out of the way. Yet there seems to be room in the void for expaning universes, without moving stuff from the universe and into the void. I added a second dimension to try to show one, out of many possible, situations where I could not understand how the distances and angles are supposed to behave in the model.

17 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

This 1 cm peak is slowly getting smaller and "creating" more distance.

But then the dip is in another dimension compared to the 1D line you are drawing? This is confusing. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ghideon
missing sentetence: I added a second dimension to try to show one, out of many possible, situations where I could not understand how the distances and angles are supposed to behave in the model.

[Phi for All]

7 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

I cant expain it to you by math at the moment (would be nice if smoeone more clever than me would help me in this), only by words and simple math like before. I use the words "density" or "antigravity" only for explenation reason.

The less "dense" spacetime where there is a mass, you can feel and see the forces of the gravity. These are the dips on a 1D line, or less "dense" liquid in 3D. In 1D example a black hole has 1 mass, this is 1 cm deep dip on the 1D line. Where there is "dense" spacetime or "antigravity" how I called it before, there is a 1 cm peak. This 1 cm peak is slowly getting smaller and "creating" more distance. We can also "feel" and "see" these forces (spacetime expansion, light travels trough slower) but we cant realy examine it (like we cant see directly gravity), it is only an empty space

I will try to make simple mathemathic explanation tonight in a few hours if I will have enough time

!

Moderator Note

Your reassignment of terminology makes discussions about your claims extremely frustrating. It highlights the fact that you haven't studied the theories you're trying to rewrite by guesswork. 

At this point, a "more clever" mathematician would simply produce maths you didn't understand that showed where you're wrong, so it wouldn't help any more than the words you've been given that you're ignoring. When you clarify your explanation tonight, please, please, please re-read the entire thread, and pay particular attention where others have pointed to flaws or express confusion. You need to address these if the thread is to stay open.

 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, László Hajós said:

I cant expain it to you by math

And yet we have an existing theory that can. 

1 hour ago, László Hajós said:

would be nice if smoeone more clever than me would help me in this

Your ideas are to vague for anyone to do that. 

[László Hajós]

1 hour ago, Ghideon said:

But then the dip is in another dimension compared to the 1D line you are drawing? This is confusing.

Maybe, you can call it an extra dimension.

 

1 hour ago, Ghideon said:

Yes but the 1D simple model seems to fail to explain the geometry you seems to suggest. You say there is no expansion of the void and no acceleration of stuff that needs to be moved out of the way. Yet there seems to be room in the void for expaning universes, without moving stuff from the universe and into the void. I added a second dimension to try to show one, out of many possible, situations where I could not understand how the distances and angles are supposed to behave in the model.

Okay, this is the last time I will try to explain. We are talking about the same thing again and again. It is not so difficult to undarstand, yet I feel that I unable explain it.

In 3D (or 4D with time) universe is an expanding bubble (or whatever shape) of water in a pool of water.

In 1(or2)D, as a line: lets suppose there is only 1 galaxy (BC) and void next to it but you can't escape the void. AB and CD distance are the void and are 1 ly long. They are not expanding, always 1 ly. Distance between BC, the edges of the universe is 1ly before the big bang: this is the event hotizon, but the line is hanging down (mass) pointing to the singilarity (I am not counting the extra gravity which would make the line longer between AB and CD). This means that the line is much longer than 1 ly between BC, lets say its 10 ly. So the lenght of the whole line is: AB(1) + BC(1+10) + CD(1) = 13. Before the big bang the line could be pulled down more so BC distance gets 0. When the big bang happens, the line between BC "bounces up" releasing its energy and BC distance will start to grow. In the beginning the expansion is faster and then slows when mass is created. AB and CD distances stay the same all the way and also the lenght of the line (13) stays the same. Only distance between BC will grow. After some time between BC the line has more "peaks" (dark energy) and "dips" (mass) pushing BC more and more apart until all the "peaks" straighten. When all the peaks dissapear BC distance will be X. X would be 11 if there would be no mass left and the distance AD would be 13, the lenght of the whole line. But in reality there would be dips in BC, which would be the masses of the black holes which could at this point enter AB and BC because there is no more expansion between mass in BC. After this all the mass and energy would merge again into a singularity, repeating the big bang, which would be in a random point between AD.

Distances change between BC but the line has to be always 13 ly long.

The points of this line would represent points in real world 4D space time as a " liquid" of points, not a cross section of the real world

Edited October 3, 2018 by László Hajós

[László Hajós]

1 hour ago, László Hajós said:

So the lenght of the whole line is: AB(1) + BC(1+10) + CD(1) = 13

And AD distance is 3 ly

[Ghideon]

2 hours ago, László Hajós said:

Maybe, you can call it an extra dimension.

Ok! If one or more additional new "dimensions" are needed, it is not surprising that my attempts at explaining or drawing pictures of the situation fails. I need an exact definition, in whatever mathematical detail that is required, describing all about this new concept and how it is related to the space time. It changes how the geometry behaves and I'm simply not clever enough to figure out how. I use "dimension" because at this point I'm not sure if the model uses mainstream definitions.

One thing that just hit me, I haven't verified:

Question 1: how many spatial and temporal dimensions does the universe(s) have in your model?
Question 2: how many spatial and temporal dimensions does the void have in your model?

Please also explain in detail how the following is possible:

On 2018-10-01 at 10:22 AM, László Hajós said:

In my model general relativity is not changed, it would be the same

 

2 hours ago, László Hajós said:

Okay, this is the last time I will try to explain.

Ok! Then this thread can be closed.

 

2 hours ago, László Hajós said:

So the lenght of the whole line is: AB(1) + BC(1+10) + CD(1) = 13

You need to define a coordinate system, dimensions, distance, lines and length. If "distance" in a "dimension" the universe is different to the "distance" in a "dimension" the void you will have some really strange geometrical effects along the edge of the universe. I deliberately use "distance" because at this point it is not clear what it is. 

2 hours ago, László Hajós said:

We are talking about the same thing again and again.

No, we are talking about new stuff you keep adding.

2 hours ago, László Hajós said:

It is not so difficult to understand

It is quite possible that your model of spacetime is intuitive to many forum members. But to me it would be easier if you present the complete definitions of all new concepts you need. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ghideon
spelling

[László Hajós]

3 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Question 1: how many spatial and temporal dimensions does the universe(s) have in your model?
Question 2: how many spatial and temporal dimensions does the void have in your model?

I am sorry if I don't made clear enough or I confuse you. I am not a mathematician nor a scientist, I can not explain it as an expert would do and probably I can not answer all questions.

It has an x axis, x=distance and points in the space, y axis, y=gravity or dark energy -y is gravity, +y is the dark energy, or the source of the expansion. So this is 2 dimensions + time is the 3rd. A, B, C, D have y=0 value at the big bang. (In a more real model B and C and possibly also A and D would have -y value because of the gravity of the black hole between BC). Dx-Ax= 3 this is the total space time before the big bang and the expansion. 

The lenght of the line is 13 ly (lenght of the line is all space time) Lad=13 ly. This value stays the same all the time. If it would be in 3 dimensions (+time) than it would mean the total of the area. If it would be in 4 dimension (+time) than it would mean the total of the points in 3D which can be less dense ( at masses as gravity) or denser (in space as dark energy).

At the big bang: the line between AB and CD is the same as the distance between them. Lab=Bx-Ax=1 ly, Lcd=Dx-Cx=1 ly. These values stay the same until expansion stops. The lenght of the line between BC is Lbc=11 ly, distance between them shrinks to 0 ly. Cx-Bx=0 ly. The line only has negative y values not only in BC, which is Lbc(y)= -11 ly. But it is the same for the whole system: Lad(y)= -11y ly.  The Lbc(y)= -11y ly value is the total energy (or mass) in the black hole. At the big bang this value is realased. In that moment Cx-Bx distance starts to grow from 0 ly but Lbc will stay the same 11 ly. In the first moment Lbc(y) changes from -11y ly to +11 ly,. And Lad(y) would be also +11y ly. Of course Lad=13 ly, Dx-Ax= 2 ly

After the big bang: Cx-Bx starts to grow. This is the start of the expansion. Between B and C after some time lots of smaller L-y values appear (mass and gravity of the matter wich is created by energy) and between these L-y values lots of small L+y values remain. These L+y values are energy of the expanding spacetime or L+y=dark energy. Expansion continues until there are no more L+y left, BC will no longer expand. Now only the larger L-y (hypermassive black holes) remain and they can enter AB or CD. When the expansion stops, Dx-Ax distance will be 3 ly again. By this time L-y start to merge in to a new singularity with Lad(y)= -10y ly value. Trough the whole process Lad was always 13 ly but Dx-Ax changes.

Edit: If I would count gravity of BC in AB and CD, than Lab and Lcd would be more than 1, example 1.5. In this case Lab(y)= -0.5y ly, Lcd(y)= -0.5y ly. Lad changes from 13 ly to 14 ly and Lad(y) to -11y ly before the big bang and -12y ly at the big bang.

Edited October 4, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

I believe I have found one more reason for confusion in the discussion. The explanations you post are simplified versions containing one physical dimension. In the general case I think this is absolutely fine, removing unnecessary complexity while addressing some specific aspect is a good thing. But in the case with a 1D line in the model, the simplification removes important issues of the model. When you use 1D line you have universe that has a void at both ends. There is no void along the part of the 1D line that is represents the universe. The void is not continuous, it is actually two different voids separated by a 1D universe. In this case you can, as you stated, probably have an expanding universe that increases the distance between two pieces of non-changing voids, just as we can observe increasing distance between galaxies in the universe.

But the above simplification seems to hide the geometrical issues I try to address. The universe(s) are surrounded by the void on all sides.

Below is a new picture.

Case I: A and D are points in the void, B and C are located at the edge on one universe.

Case II: The universe has expanded so that the distance BC inside the universe is twice as long as in case I. As a consequence, according to the model, lines AB and CD are moved further apart. Distances AB and CD are unchanged. A traveler inside the universe travels from A to B and measures the distance, distance AB is X.

Case III: Same as case II but we take into account that the void is continuous. The universe is still 1D but it has to be surrounded by void. The void must allow for travel between A and B without passing through the universe.  The traveler is now in the void and travels from A to B in the void, represented by the dashed line along the universe. What distance will the traveler measure in the void in Case III? Is it X?

The points A and B in the void exactly the same in all three cases. Either the void has expanded or objects at A and B would experience acceleration? There may be other explanations, I can't figure out how the geometry of the void works.

Side note: once you manage to explain the geometry of the void there are a huge number of issues inside the universe that will be addressed. 

 

15 hours ago, László Hajós said:

y=gravity or dark energy

This will require some thought to untangle. I'll do that in a later post if the tread remains open.

[Ghideon]

Fail! The letters are mixed up. Too late to edit ... 

Image is correct; 

 

A/B/C was wrong in descriptions, correct versions of Case I,II,III:

1 hour ago, Ghideon said:

Case I: A and D are points in the void, B and C are located at the edge on one universe.

Case II: The universe has expanded so that the distance BC inside the universe is twice as long as in case I. As a consequence, according to the model, lines AB and CD are moved further apart. Distances AB and CD are unchanged. A traveler inside the universe travels from B to C and measures the distance, distance BC is X.

Case III: Same as case II but we take into account that the void is continuous. The universe is still 1D but it has to be surrounded by void. The void must allow for travel between B and C without passing through the universe.  The traveler is now in the void and travels from B to C in the void, represented by the dashed line along the universe. What distance will the traveler measure in the void in Case III? Is it X?

The points B  and C  in the void are exactly the same in all three cases. Either the void has expanded or objects at B and C would experience acceleration? There may be other explanations, I can't figure out how the geometry of the void works.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Ghideon
Highlighted changes & errors

[László Hajós]

26 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Case III: Same as case II but we take into account that the void is continuous. The universe is still 1D but it has to be surrounded by void. The void must allow for travel between B and C without passing through the universe.  The traveler is now in the void and travels from B to C in the void, represented by the dashed line along the universe. What distance will the traveler measure in the void in Case III? Is it X?

If I understand your question correctly than: you are asking how can you travel in the void so that you dont go trough the universe if the model space would be 2d sheet (without the extra dimension). In this case BC would be (more or less deformed) circle from an above view (BC distance or X is the diameter if the circle would be perfect). You would have to travel around the circle, X would be minimum half the circle of the universe in case III

[Ghideon]

3 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

X would be minimum half the circle of the universe in case III

Ok! Distance in the void, around the universe, gets longer and longer as the universe expands. So the void expands, correct?

[László Hajós]

49 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

The points B  and C  in the void are exactly the same in all three cases. Either the void has expanded or objects at B and C would experience acceleration? There may be other explanations, I can't figure out how the geometry of the void works.

Again, if I understand you question correctly: in case I and case II and III if it would be a 2 dimensonal sheet (without the extra dimension + time): case I the universe is a circle with BC diameter. The void surrounds the universe. The area of the "void" is x. Case II BC diameter grows, so area of BC grows. But the area of void has to stay the same, this means that in this 2 dimension as a sheet, AB and CD is smaller than in case I. Only the area of "void" stays the same. 

In  3 dimensional (+ extra dimension + time) model the same happens put as volumes. The volume of universe grows, but the voulme of "void" stays the same.

9 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Ok! Distance in the void, around the universe, gets longer and longer as the universe expands. So the void expands, correct?

No, the area of "void" stays the same as I describe above

Edited October 4, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

I do not get this. 

5 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

 But the area of void has to stay the same, this means that in this 2 dimension as a sheet, AB and CD is smaller than in case I. Only the area of "voi"d stays the same. 

Then my simplified picture failed to show the issue. Did you understand the part where the 1D model you used requires the void to be split in two parts that are not accessible without passing through the universe? 

I'll try to add a new picture later.

[László Hajós]

20 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Then my simplified picture failed to show the issue. Did you understand the part where the 1D model you used requires the void to be split in two parts that are not accessible without passing through the universe? 

Probably I didn't or I scrolld through too fast. In a 1 D model you couldnt go through the universe while the universe is expanding more than the speed of light. But this is not a real world model, in real world you could go around ( or even acces the edge of the unierse if the edge is not expanding with the speed of light), altough that lenght of travel would be bigger as well if expansion still goe's on.

Edited October 4, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

40 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

in real world you could go around ( or even acces the edge of the unierse if the edge is not expanding with the speed of light), altough that lenght of travel would be bigger as well if expansion still goe's on.

So the path, in the void, along the outside of the universe, will be longer and longer as the universe expands. That means that the void expands, otherwise stuff would have to be pushed away by force (accelerated).

Please note that you said that if another universe located at point A stays at the same distance from B when the universe between B and C expands:

On 2018-10-02 at 10:31 PM, László Hajós said:

There would be no acceleration measured. It is the same like our universe expands faster than speed of light. We on earth right now expanding more than the speed of light away from an other far away point in our universe but we dont feel any acceleration.

You could imagine as follows: if only these two universes and the space between them would exist in the whole world. The line between the universes is in the middle. The line will not move, only X universe growing (from our point of view the closest edge will stay in place and every furthest point in the universe would accelerate faster and faster. The same would we see on the other side in the other universe

 

1 hour ago, László Hajós said:

But the area of void has to stay the same

No, that is not true unless you break the void apart*. Now it is your turn. If all of your statements so far are true, draw a 2D image where there is no expansion of the void, universes separated by distance X are still separated as they expand, the area of the void is unchanged and a traveler has to travel longer and longer distances to travel, in the void, along the edge of a universe. If it is not possible then your explanations are missing important properties, the geometry is non standard or, quite possible, the model just is not correct. 

*) If hard to understand I'll create a few pictures showing this.

[László Hajós]

2 hours ago, Ghideon said:

So the path, in the void, along the outside of the universe, will be longer and longer as the universe expands. That means that the void expands, otherwise stuff would have to be pushed away by force (accelerated).

Please note that you said that if another universe located at point A stays at the same distance from B when the universe between B and C expands:

The "void" is not expanding if "staff" has to be pushed away or not. There would be no spacial change or acceleration if space is a line, the line would be rigid

I said that A stayes the same distance from B as a line of points if space would be a line. This is not the result in other diensons as I already explained today

2 hours ago, Ghideon said:

No, that is not true unless you break the void apart*.

Space does't need to be "break apart". If flat as an area, it would be like marbles with the exact density (if there is no gravitation or dark energy in it) therefore the area (or density of marbles) would stay the same. Space as volume would stay the same as a liquid or gas with the same density

2 hours ago, Ghideon said:

Now it is your turn. If all of your statements so far are true, draw a 2D image where there is no expansion of the void, universes separated by distance X are still separated as they expand, the area of the void is unchanged and a traveler has to travel longer and longer distances to travel, in the void, along the edge of a universe. If it is not possible then your explanations are missing important properties, the geometry is non standard or, quite possible, the model just is not correct. 

You want something which is logically and phisically impossible. Once again space as a line and as a flat sheet is not the model of real space, only a representation. This drawing can be made in 2D flat sheet where space is an area, or 3D where space is a volume

If I would have to draw space as a line like best representation of a 1 universe world, than I would draw a circle. The points of the circle's circumference would be the points of space. ABCD would be on the circumference. The circumference would get longer only by the BC distance getting longer. Then you can reach D from A.

Then after some time the circumference would reach a maximum lenght, and later getting shorter by the big bang and starting to grow again

Edited October 4, 2018 by László Hajós

[Ghideon]

48 minutes ago, László Hajós said:

The "void" is not expanding if "staff" has to be pushed away or not.

Ok!

More images showing why the model has some strange geometry.

1: This is how the 1D version looks like in 2D in a naive version where a second dimension is added. There are two voids separated by a universe. I am sure this is not what is intended but I include this one as reference to show how easy it is to misinterpret how the 1D description applies to a 2D geometry. 

Top: 1D
Bottom: naive 2D version.

2: Picture with the naive and incorrect version with expanding universe. This shows that it is easy to maintain the angles and measurements of the void when the universe expands. But the void is broken into two pieces. This is probably not what the model says. But I think the measurements of each void piece is according to the description; area is not changed, and anything at, or in, the void would not need to be moved to make room for the expanding universe.

Left: original universe
Right: an expanded universe.  

 

Next picture shows how I interpretative that the void should look like, in surrounds the universe on all sides. The void is continuous, you can travel around the universe and measure the distance. The proportions are not important, the important part is that it is one void surrounding a universe. This is not a new image, we agreed on this on in an early post. It is just included as a reference.

 

Now lets try to create an image that complies to the rules I think the model states 
-The void has room for an expanding universe
-The void does not expand
-Use 2 dimensions since 1D fails to show the issues
-The same distances must be measured from edge of the universe to a given point in the void even after universe has expanded.
-Void area is not changed
-Possibility to travel around the universe and measure the distance.

Case I shows the starting position as a reference, defining distances to given points in the void, nothing new in this image.
Case II is a failed attempt; you can travel around the universe and measure that the universe has expanded, the distances to the points in the void are the same but the area is larger. The points in the void, at or near the edge of the universe, is changed. 
Case III has correct measurements of X and correct area but is not continuous. Also the edges, seen from the void, ar not the same radius som some posts are moved or stretched/compressed.
Case IV has correct X values and correct area and also no edge defects of the void. But now the void is not continuous, travel around the universe is not possible.

Note: this is not meant to make fun of the model, it is my serious attempts at making sense of the descriptions of the model.

Properties you have used to describe the void does not apply to a void that is geometrically possible under the circumstances given. So again, what kind of geometry does the void have? Can you show the math? 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Ghideon
Case II clarity, explicitly stating that points in the void, at or near the edge of the universe, is changed.