Idea for a substance Separator or fusion Reactor

[Phantom5]

Hello

 

I have an idea for a substance seperator or fusion reactor.

Here is one example for my idea...

We study the radiation pressure on cometary dust over a wide size range in order to discuss the properties of particles in cometary dust trails and meteor streams.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0273117707005376

The hydrogen line (1420.40575 MHz) is the precession frequency of neutral hydrogen atoms, the most abundant substance in space

http://www.setileague.org/askdr/hydrogen.htm

When you take a hollow sphere and set a frequency on it, then must the air in the sphere, compress it in the middle of it.

You must find a frequency that push, maybe hydrogen in the middle of the sphere, but 1420MHz absorb hydrogen and i think that this is wrong.

Also you take a frequency that pushs the hydrogen in the middle of the sphere.

When its strong enough maybe it comes to a hydrogen fusion or you take normal air and take a frequency that push the oxygen in the middle of the sphere. And then you can take the oxygen away from the middle.

What you think About it?

[swansont]

First of all, you need to look at the momentum of the photon, which is very small, meaning you need a lot of photons to exert any meaningful radiation pressure.  The 1420 MHz line in hydrogen has a long lifetime, so you can't cycle this transition quickly — the hydrogen is basically going to absorb just the one photon.

Neutral atom trapping uses the D2 line, and you scatter of order a million photons a second in order to trap them. But that's not enough of a force to get you past the Coulomb barrier and get the atoms to fuse. In hydrogen, that transition is at 10.2 eV, i.e. hard UV, which makes the optics difficult.

As a separator, you have to look at the intensities you can generate and how many atoms you can interact with. 1 Watt of 500 nm light requires about 2.5 x 10^18 photons/s, but we're using roughly 10^6 photons/s to push the atom. So we can push 2.5 10^12 atoms/s

That's not very many. Not even if you can scale this up to a kW of power. You'd need 100 MW to get to the point where you are approaching a millimole per second, or a few moles per hour. (at $0.10 per kWh and 10% efficiency, that's $100,000 for the laser operation electrical bill all by itself, assuming you had access to a >1 GW source)

[Phantom5]

Hello

 

Thanks for the answer.

35 minutes ago, swansont said:

First of all, you need to look at the momentum of the photon, which is very small, meaning you need a lot of photons to exert any meaningful radiation pressure.  The 1420 MHz line in hydrogen has a long lifetime, so you can't cycle this transition quickly — the hydrogen is basically going to absorb just the one photon.

Neutral atom trapping uses the D2 line, and you scatter of order a million photons a second in order to trap them. But that's not enough of a force to get you past the Coulomb barrier and get the atoms to fuse. In hydrogen, that transition is at 10.2 eV, i.e. hard UV, which makes the optics difficult.

As a separator, you have to look at the intensities you can generate and how many atoms you can interact with. 1 Watt of 500 nm light requires about 2.5 x 10^18 photons/s, but we're using roughly 10^6 photons/s to push the atom. So we can push 2.5 10^12 atoms/s

That's not very many. Not even if you can scale this up to a kW of power. You'd need 100 MW to get to the point where you are approaching a millimole per second, or a few moles per hour. (at $0.10 per kWh and 10% efficiency, that's $100,000 for the laser operation electrical bill all by itself, assuming you had access to a >1 GW source)

 

Hydrogen gas(H2) has a molar mass of 2 g. Molar mass of a substance is defined as the mass of 1 mole of that substance. And by 1 mole it is meant a collection of 6.022*10^23 particles of that substance.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-molecules-are-present-in-one-gram-of-hydrogen-How

Do you mean that you can push 2.5 10^12 Atoms/s with 1 Watt of light?

What is when you have 2 gramms of hydrogen and you have 50 Watts? There are only 6.022*10^23 particels.

Is it correct that you can push 2,5*10^36 Atoms with 100MW?

And what i want to know, if you take a sphere with 10cm diameter and set on this sphere a frequence, maybe with 10khz and 60 watts, do you mean i can messure with a pressure change at the rim from the sphere?

When you take 100MW then must the Atoms with one blow in the middle of the sphere or is that wrong?

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Phantom5 said:

Hello

 

Thanks for the answer.

 

Hydrogen gas(H2) has a molar mass of 2 g. Molar mass of a substance is defined as the mass of 1 mole of that substance. And by 1 mole it is meant a collection of 6.022*10^23 particles of that substance.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-molecules-are-present-in-one-gram-of-hydrogen-How

Do you mean that you can push 2.5 10^12 Atoms/s with 1 Watt of light?

Under the conditions I described, yes. I assumed that the light can be absorbed and quickly re-emitted.

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What is when you have 2 gramms of hydrogen and you have 50 Watts? There are only 6.022*10^23 particels.

"Only"? There's a huge difference between 10^12 atoms and 10^23 atoms.

Quote

Is it correct that you can push 2,5*10^36 Atoms with 100MW?

No, that only gets you to ~2.5 x 10^20 atoms. Where did you get 10^36?

Quote

And what i want to know, if you take a sphere with 10cm diameter and set on this sphere a frequence, maybe with 10khz and 60 watts, do you mean i can messure with a pressure change at the rim from the sphere?

The thermodynamic reaction is likely to be much larger than radiation pressure effects. i.e. the temperature & pressure will increase just from heating up the atoms.

Quote

When you take 100MW then must the Atoms with one blow in the middle of the sphere or is that wrong?

I don't know what this means.

[Phantom5]

I don't want to absorb the light, it must be a frequence, that, at it best, reflect the Atoms and then they are moving to the middle of the sphere.

Sorry i think it was a misstake with the 10^36

Because of blow or push the Atoms in the middle of the sphere, i think when you have enough Radiation, then it gives a Fusion process.

And when you take enough power you push all atoms in one second into the middle of the sphere.

Because of the reflection, i hope that gives more thrust for the Atoms.

 

1 hour ago, swansont said:

No, that only gets you to ~2.5 x 10^20 atoms.

With 100 Megawatts you push 2.5 x10^20 Atoms to the middle, but what is when you take 100 Gigawatts for one Second? I think that then all Atoms pushed in one second to the middle of the sphere or is it incorrect? 100GW would be 2.5x10^23. Would it reach for a Fusion?

Edited October 3, 2018 by Phantom5

[Phantom5]

One mol of hydrogen are 2 grams and ive read here, see link, that 1 gram produce 90 Terrawatt Energy.

The complete conversion of one gram of matter would release 9×10¹³ joules of energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

Is it correct or wrong?

When it prduce a Fusion effect, then it is a good reactor or not? Then you can produce with 100 Gigawatt, 90000 Gigawatt.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Phantom5

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Phantom5 said:

I don't want to absorb the light, it must be a frequence, that, at it best, reflect the Atoms and then they are moving to the middle of the sphere.

Then how will it interact with the atoms?

2 hours ago, Phantom5 said:

Sorry i think it was a misstake with the 10^36

Because of blow or push the Atoms in the middle of the sphere, i think when you have enough Radiation, then it gives a Fusion process.

We do this already. There is nowhere near enough of an optical force to do this. You can exert several hundred g's of acceleration on an atom. You are limited by the scattering rate and the momentum of an individual photon.

2 hours ago, Phantom5 said:

 With 100 Megawatts you push 2.5 x10^20 Atoms to the middle, but what is when you take 100 Gigawatts for one Second? I think that then all Atoms pushed in one second to the middle of the sphere or is it incorrect? 100GW would be 2.5x10^23. Would it reach for a Fusion?

Where would you generate such power? 

And no, as I said, the force isn't anywhere close to being large enough for fusion.

[Phantom5]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Then how will it interact with the atoms?

By reflection.

 

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Where would you generate such power? 

And no, as I said, the force isn't anywhere close to being large enough for fusion.

Then you take a smaller sphere where are only 100milligrams of hydrogen in it, then you dont need so much power.

I don't understand the problem with the columb barrier you need only 10 Mev for overcome it, i think the temperature is the problem, but when you have pressure with radiation, then is 10Mev very tiny or im wrong?

In Wh is it only 4.450492583333 *10^-16Wh.

At 10^23 Atoms and 10Mev you Need only 44 Megawatts.

 

Due to the law of conservation of momentum, any change in the total momentum of the waves or photons must involve an equal and opposite change in the momentum of the matter it interacted with (Newton's third law of motion), as is illustrated in the accompanying figure for the case of light being perfectly reflected by a surface. This transfer of momentum is the general explanation for what we term radiation pressure.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure

Edited October 3, 2018 by Phantom5

[swansont]

16 hours ago, Phantom5 said:

By reflection.

A gas of atoms does not reflect very much, if at all. Reflection requires a change in index of refraction, and gases do not tend to have boundaries that give rise to a significant change in index.

16 hours ago, Phantom5 said:

 

Then you take a smaller sphere where are only 100milligrams of hydrogen in it, then you dont need so much power.

I don't understand the problem with the columb barrier you need only 10 Mev for overcome it, i think the temperature is the problem, but when you have pressure with radiation, then is 10Mev very tiny or im wrong?

10 MeV is very large; visible photons are only about 2 eV, and very little of the energy of the photon goes into KE of the atom.

16 hours ago, Phantom5 said:

 Due to the law of conservation of momentum, any change in the total momentum of the waves or photons must involve an equal and opposite change in the momentum of the matter it interacted with (Newton's third law of motion), as is illustrated in the accompanying figure for the case of light being perfectly reflected by a surface. This transfer of momentum is the general explanation for what we term radiation pressure.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure

Yes, the momentum is what you need to look at. Photon momentum is E/c. c is a big number. IOW, an individual photon has a very small momentum, and the force it can exert on an atom is limited. Depending on the mass of the atom, the typical photon interaction will change the speed by maybe a few cm/s.