What is movement?

[humility]

So mass warps the spacetime field, which is like an object in that it is not merely a mathamatical or linguistic construct, the warping is called gravity, and space is just the measurement of distance and movement.

 

This is a lot of effort just to slot in the correct words. And you need to do a lot better at identifying when concepts are being applied to the wrong words if its such a big deal. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by humility

[studiot]

5 hours ago, humility said:

Nope, I still have no idea what you are trying to say. 

 

24 minutes ago, humility said:

Maybe it is a problem with words.

 

24 minutes ago, humility said:

And I do want to understand,

 

OK I did ask if you have a problem with English.

But you did not reply.

 

So let's take it very simply.

 

I am only answering your question what is movement?

 

So please cooperate.

 

Do you know what a Sundial is?

Do you understand that the shadow line on a sundial moves ?

 

[humility]

Maybe also you are the kind of people that see pi and theorems as real as the rocks and trees. As you only see the rocks and trees as collections of measurements. And so you cant comprehend why one would want to differentiate a measurable pattern as less real than a rock or tree. That could also be adding to the confusion.

10 minutes ago, studiot said:

 

 

 

OK I did ask if you have a problem with English.

But you did not reply.

 

So let's take it very simply.

 

I am only answering your question what is movement?

 

So please cooperate.

 

Do you know what a Sundial is?

Do you understand that the shadow line on a sundial moves ?

 

yes, yes

[Strange]

4 minutes ago, humility said:

Maybe also you are the kind of people that see pi and theorems as real as the rocks and trees.

I don't have an opinion on whether pi or theorems are "real". It doesn't matter. (I don't even know what "real" means.)

[studiot]

6 minutes ago, humility said:

yes, yes

OK so when a thing moves, something is different.

So asking the question what is movement means exploring what is that something that is different.

It also involves being able to distinguish anything different that is not movement.

 

Do you agree ?

 

 

I have a colour changing lightbulb that changes colour from red to green to blue and abck again when I switch it on

But the lightbulb stays in its socket and doesn't move.

 

So colour changing is change but it is not movement.

 

Do you understand this?

 

 

Since you are having trouble with a shadow moving, perhaps we should conside the hands of my bedside clock.

 

They go round and round on the clock face.

 

So do the hands move?

But does the clock move on my bedside table?

 

So what changes and what doesn't?

 

 

[DrP]

12 minutes ago, humility said:

This is a lot of effort just to slot in the correct words.  

Things are complex when trying to define reality - the words are well defined. It can take a while to get your head around it if you don't have a background in science maybe? This is why children are taught language, mathematic, history, science etc in schools - to prepare them for later life. They aren't taught about spacetime as far as I am aware because it is quite complex and not need for early life as a human being in society. They just learn about 'gravity'. After learning languages, maths, history and sciences (physics in this case) they can if they choose to go on to study in much more detail at degree, masters or doctorate levels at university.  The question of motion and how it relates to spacetime and GR and the likes is the kind of thing you might get to study doing a pure physics or astrophysics degree  - probably year 2 or 3 after you have been prepped and taught enough physics to fully get your head around the stuff and the maths.  Sorry that feel 'it is a lot of effort' to get your head around the definitions - this is why people spend many years studying the subject.

 

22 minutes ago, humility said:

 And you need to do a lot better at identifying when concepts are being applied to the wrong words if its such a big deal. 

Who do you mean by 'you' here? One of our members or science in general?  As I said above - it can take years of study for someone to understand it well enough to be able to answer questions about it to a level where the institutions feel they are worthy of an academic degree. What is your academic background? Do you expect to ask a simple question about movement and have the whole of physics wrapped up in a few lines of text as a reply? The answer can come in many different levels....  you could write a book about it getting deeper and deeper explanations as you get more detailed knowledge about the subject.

 

[Strange]

2 hours ago, humility said:

And you need to do a lot better at identifying when concepts are being applied to the wrong words if its such a big deal. 

I have been trying to do this, for example when pointing out that it is not "gravity curves space" but "mass curves spacetime (which we perceive as gravity)".

I don't know what level of (mathematical) detail you want to get into, but I think this is a really good overview of GR, and you can understand quite a bit even without following the math: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/einstein/einstein.html

[humility]

18 hours ago, studiot said:

OK so when a thing moves, something is different.

So asking the question what is movement means exploring what is that something that is different.

It also involves being able to distinguish anything different that is not movement.

 

Do you agree ?

 

 

I have a colour changing lightbulb that changes colour from red to green to blue and abck again when I switch it on

But the lightbulb stays in its socket and doesn't move.

 

So colour changing is change but it is not movement.

 

Do you understand this?

 

 

Since you are having trouble with a shadow moving, perhaps we should conside the hands of my bedside clock.

 

They go round and round on the clock face.

 

So do the hands move?

But does the clock move on my bedside table?

 

So what changes and what doesn't?

 

 

Sorry, this is too annoying and you missed the point of my question anyway.

 

18 hours ago, DrP said:

Things are complex when trying to define reality - the words are well defined. It can take a while to get your head around it if you don't have a background in science maybe? This is why children are taught language, mathematic, history, science etc in schools - to prepare them for later life. They aren't taught about spacetime as far as I am aware because it is quite complex and not need for early life as a human being in society. They just learn about 'gravity'. After learning languages, maths, history and sciences (physics in this case) they can if they choose to go on to study in much more detail at degree, masters or doctorate levels at university.  The question of motion and how it relates to spacetime and GR and the likes is the kind of thing you might get to study doing a pure physics or astrophysics degree  - probably year 2 or 3 after you have been prepped and taught enough physics to fully get your head around the stuff and the maths.  Sorry that feel 'it is a lot of effort' to get your head around the definitions - this is why people spend many years studying the subject.

 

Who do you mean by 'you' here? One of our members or science in general?  As I said above - it can take years of study for someone to understand it well enough to be able to answer questions about it to a level where the institutions feel they are worthy of an academic degree. What is your academic background? Do you expect to ask a simple question about movement and have the whole of physics wrapped up in a few lines of text as a reply? The answer can come in many different levels....  you could write a book about it getting deeper and deeper explanations as you get more detailed knowledge about the subject.

 

Im not really paying attention to who exactly Im talking to. I lose track once I get into a concersation. As Thats not really important. So you being whomever I was talking to. 

 

And I expect you to notice when Im applying concepts to the wrong words and to correct that, instead of assuming Im using the right words.  Because we just wasted an entire page of discussion because I was calling spacetime just space and no one apparently noticed that, instead kept trying to point out the definition of space instead of pointing out that space and spacetime were two different concepts.

 

I honestly thought space and time were literally the same thing and the words, space, time and spacetime were interchangeable. Because thats just one of the wierd things science does. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by humility

[studiot]

6 hours ago, humility said:

Sorry, this is too annoying and you missed the point of my question anyway.

 

I can't begin to understand why my efforts to help are described as annoying.

 

If I missed the point of the sentence

Quote

What is movement?

 

Then please explain it to me.

[Strange]

6 minutes ago, studiot said:

I can't begin to understand why my efforts to help are described as annoying.

I have to say, I can’t see where you are going with your approach. Maybe you could say what you are trying to achieve and how your questions relate to that?

[studiot]

27 minutes ago, Strange said:

I have to say, I can’t see where you are going with your approach. Maybe you could say what you are trying to achieve and how your questions relate to that?

There is only one answer to the question

"What is a 1952 Florin?"

It's unambiguous and everyone would be able to agree that answer.

 

The question posed was

"What is movement ?"

Now that question is much more complicated and can lead to a variety of answers.

I Have been trying to work from the general to the particular.

That is to home in on humility's intent.

 

One type of movement has predominently been discussed in the thread - that we call translation, although no one has properly named it.

So do I take it that all here deny rotation as another type of movement?

 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, studiot said:

So do I take it that all here deny rotation as another type of movement?

OK that’s clearer. But I doubt anyone is denying it. Perhaps no one else has thought of it as an example.

Could reflection also be considered a type of motion?

We could also consider vibration or oscillation, as well. 

[studiot]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

OK that’s clearer. But I doubt anyone is denying it. Perhaps no one else has thought of it as an example.

Could reflection also be considered a type of motion?

We could also consider vibration or oscillation, as well. 

 

Which is why I said in my first post

 

On 15/10/2018 at 11:21 AM, studiot said:

But we should consider other uses of movement

and all I have done subsequently is to start to go through them systematically.

 

 

Reflection surely cannot occur without translation (there and back), but perhaps you can think of an example?

Vibration and oscillation may incur translation but there are forms of oscillation which do not for instance repeated expansion and contraction.

 

The more we look into this the more hidden detail we uncover

n'est pas?

 

 

 

[Strange]

38 minutes ago, studiot said:

Reflection surely cannot occur without translation (there and back), but perhaps you can think of an example?

 

I was thinking in terms of symmetry operations; for example a pair of enantiomers. I don’t think that would count as “movement”, but as always it depends on how the words are defined

Edited October 20, 2018 by Strange

[studiot]

Here is my shortform Physics definition of movement.

 

Movement is that quantity or property that is described and measured by an equation of motion.

There are many different equations of motion, giving rise to different forms of movement.

 

I think that is as general as I can get.

[Strange]

15 minutes ago, studiot said:

Movement is that quantity or property that is described and measured by an equation of motion.

Is that circular? How do you define an equation of motion? One that describes movement...

[studiot]

29 minutes ago, Strange said:

Is that circular? How do you define an equation of motion? One that describes movement...

Do you like circular motion arguments ?

 

I would define an equation of motion as one that connects a locus with time.