MigL Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) Journalist J Kashoggi was was allegedly ( well, pretty certainly ) killed in the Saudi embassy in Istambul, Turkey. This brazen act was carried out without much thought to deniability on the part of the Saudis, even evidence of the involvement of the Saudi Crown Prince might be forthcoming. What isn't being discussed is the fact that J Kashoggi was a 'hack' journalist, only interested in promoting the interests of the Muslim Brotherhood, and an extremely vocal critic of the Crown Prince, and his reforms. The Crown Prince, on the other hand, has introduced more progressive reforms to Saudi society in the last year than in the previous 100yrs. I realize the ends don't justify the means, but I'm having trouble being too upset about the situation. Your thoughts ? Edited October 25, 2018 by MigL
CharonY Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 From I understood he was a columnist more than a journalist. But can you point out more background? I understand it is a broad topic, but it would help if you could contextualize your comments e.g. with sources. There are articles around that highlight that the crown prince is not the progressive icon that he tries to make himself to be. And specifically, if dissenting voices are assassinated I am going to be very skeptical about any reforms.
iNow Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, MigL said: What isn't being discussed is the fact that J Kashoggi was a 'hack' journalist, only interested in promoting the interests of the Muslim Brotherhood, and an extremely vocal critic of the Crown Prince, and his reforms. If being a crappy journalist with questionable viewpoints is now sufficient reason in our society to be murdered and dismembered, then our society can go duck itself... as can anyone who aligns with that style of thinking 1
MigL Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) A simple google search of J Keshoggi and the Muslim Brotherhood will give you several articles about Keshoggi's leanings. He believed ( as does T Erdogan of Turkey ) that the ( Muslim ) Brotherhood is an expression of Muslim democracy. although things haven't gone too well where the Brotherhood has taken power. Sorry, INow, I like controversial topics. How upset are you when ISIL members with 'questionable viewpoints' get blown up ? Edited October 25, 2018 by MigL
CharonY Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) So you are saying that folks leaning toward things that you are not a fan of should be freely assassinated? That is a very scary thought. It also scary to simply designate folks one do not like as an enemy combatant. Especially if the only weapon seems to be words. If you think words and thoughts should be punishable by death, I truly hope that you don't get into a position of power, regardless what your leanings are. Edited October 25, 2018 by CharonY
MigL Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 I didn't get that meaning from re-reading my post. I said " I'm having trouble being too upset about the situation". Not that I wasn't upset at all, or even happy about it.
rangerx Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 You don't care when a journalist is murdered, but when a judicial nominee is confronted by a woman with a sexual assault allegation, you lose your shit. Meanwhile Trump doubles down at a political rally that CNN deserved to be attacked by a domestic terrorist. Yet another one of your glaring examples of false equivalence.
MigL Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 You have a serious understanding problem, Rangerx.
StringJunky Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, MigL said: You have a serious understanding problem, Rangerx. I think your sometimes dispassionate detachment irks people. Most people attach some morality i.e. right or wrong to things or they take a side. Edited October 25, 2018 by StringJunky 1
MigL Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 So you ( but mostly others ) think I should make an argument from emotion, rather than cold, hard facts ? Seems rather inappropriate for a SCIENCE forum.
swansont Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 6 hours ago, MigL said: What isn't being discussed is the fact that J Kashoggi was a 'hack' journalist, only interested in promoting the interests of the Muslim Brotherhood, ! Moderator Note Setting the stage in this way, assertion without support, is contrary to our discussion protocols. You need to back up what you are claiming. 6 hours ago, MigL said: and an extremely vocal critic of the Crown Prince, and his reforms. The Crown Prince, on the other hand, has introduced more progressive reforms to Saudi society in the last year than in the previous 100yrs. I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. Does being critical of government leaders not fall under the umbrella of journalism? 10 minutes ago, MigL said: So you ( but mostly others ) think I should make an argument from emotion, rather than cold, hard facts ? Seems rather inappropriate for a SCIENCE forum. ! Moderator Note Let's have the cold hard facts.
Ten oz Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) I don't like the set up for this discussion. The OP calls Khashoggi a hack Journalist and then as support merely tosses out the Muslim Brotherhood as if we all should accept and understand anyone who gets associated with the Muslim Brotherhood is obviously bad. When asked to elaborate MigL responded "google search of J Khashoggi and the Muslim Brotherhood". We can have a better discussion than this. @MigL , Khashoggi was a journalist in Saudi Arabia until 2017. From within Saudi Arabia he spent his career advocating that women should have equal rights as men, public should have free expression, and that secularism should be tolerated. Relative to the the Country he lived and worked in Khaskoggi's views aligned with Western views fairly well which is why when he fled Saudi Arabia he came to the West. Khashoggi's final column was titled " What the Arab world needs most is free expression" and centered around the need for free expression in the Arab world which is a position all Western Democracies support, Canada included. As the Saudi govt searches for excuses and the U.S. govt searches for reasons to accept those excuses a propaganda campaign has been launched to besmirch Khashoggi. Considering Khashoggi was a published Journalist it shouldn't be difficult for you to link articles written by him outlining his positions you find objectionable or to be examples of "hack" journalism. I posted his final article and recommend you read it. It isn't very long. Quote With the Saudi monarchy’s denials of responsibility for the killing of Jamal Khashoggi becoming harder and harder to believe as time goes on, the regime’s American defenders appear to be shifting to the time-honored tactic of suggesting that a victim of state-sanctioned violence had it coming. Robert Costa and Karoun Demirjian of the Washington Post reported Friday on the “whispering campaign against Jamal Khashoggi that is designed to protect President Trump from criticism of his handling of the dissident journalist’s alleged murder.” Reportedly, House Republicans have been quietly sharing emails about Khashoggi’s background, but as the article notes, quite a few prominent conservative voices have hardly been whispering. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/new-republican-line-jamal-khashoggi-was-no-angel.html Edited October 25, 2018 by Ten oz 1
iNow Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, MigL said: How upset are you when ISIL members with 'questionable viewpoints' get blown up ? As others have highlighted, the implication here (whether intentional or not) is that a journalist being critical of a government and writing about it is equivalent to an enemy combatant being critical of heads attached to necks and thus removing them. I know you well enough to know that’s not what you meant to convey, but I also understand the context of our current moment in society well enough to know that’s what just happened here and what others are, in fact, also doing elsewhere with disturbing consistency. 7 hours ago, CharonY said: It also scary to simply designate folks one do not like as an enemy combatant. Especially if the only weapon seems to be words. If you think words and thoughts should be punishable by death, I truly hope that you don't get into a position of power, regardless what your leanings are. There is a potentially interesting conversation to be had here regarding the margins of acceptable speech. For example, what’s an appropriate response from the state if that speech is used to incite or harm others, but that’s obviously best explored in its own thread. Edited October 25, 2018 by iNow
MigL Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 Took the liberty of quoting the whole article from the NYTimes… ( read it if you are interested ) Jamal Khashoggi and the Competing Visions of Islam The growing tensions between Turkey and Saudi Arabia after the murder of the Saudi journalist in Istanbul remind us of an older conflict between monarchical and republican Islam. By Faisal Devji (Mr. Devji teaches history at the University of Oxford) Jamal Khashoggi’s murder by Saudi agents in Istanbul doesn’t just cast a harsh light on the authoritarian and reckless behavior of Prince Mohamad bin Salman of Saudi Arabia; it also highlights the rivalry between Turkey and Saudi Arabia, which represent competing forms of Islam. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy that allows Islam to define all social relations as long as it makes no political claims. Turkey, led by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his Justice and Development Party, is a republic whose government was brought to power by the votes of many conservative Muslims. Despite being an influential Saudi voice, Mr. Khashoggi had over the years embraced these competing visions of governance and the place of Islam in politics. He had been a loyal adviser to Saudi rulers, but he also, like Mr. Erdogan and his party, is widely believed to have subscribed to the Islamist ideal of power democratically achieved — an ideal represented by the Muslim Brotherhood. Edited by mod; see link below to read the whole article.
Ten oz Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: Considering Khashoggi was a published Journalist it shouldn't be difficult for you to link articles written by him outlining his positions you find objectionable or to be examples of "hack" journalism. Can you cite some of Khashoggi's work? 8 minutes ago, MigL said: Took the liberty of quoting the whole article from the NYTimes… It is you who started a thread in here about Khashoggi and not Faisal Devji. You called Khashoggi a hack. It would be great if you could actively participate in the discussion you started rather than telling people to use Google and copying and pasting whole op-eds written by others. 2
CharonY Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, StringJunky said: I think your sometimes dispassionate detachment irks people. Most people attach some morality i.e. right or wrong to things or they take a side. I think it is wrong to see it as detachment. Not being too worried about murder, which in any scale is an extreme measure, is taking a stance. Justifying it (even only for a bit) by highlighting perhaps problematic views of the victims is not taking a neutral stance or perspective. Rather, it implies that only folks with acceptable views and behaviour are worthy of basic protection. For a free and democratic society where you want the rule of law this clearly not a dispassionate, position. If we only extend protection to those we agree with, this is taking a side, consciously or not. 2 hours ago, iNow said: There is a potentially interesting conversation to be had here regarding the margins of acceptable speech. For example, what’s an appropriate response from the state if that speech is used to incite or harm others, but that’s obviously best explored in its own thread. Sure, but in my understanding murder is on an extreme range that should never be part of an appropriate response. Edited October 25, 2018 by CharonY 2
Ten oz Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 26 minutes ago, CharonY said: I think it is wrong to see it as detachment. Not being too worried about murder, which in any scale is an extreme measure, is taking a stance. Justifying it (even only for a bit) by highlighting perhaps problematic views of the victims is not taking a neutral stance or even a new perspective. Rather, it implies that only folks with acceptable views and behaviour are worthy of basic protection. For a free and democratic society where you want the rule of law this clearly not a dispassionate, position. If we only extend protection to those we agree with, this is taking a side, consciously or not. Sure, but in my understanding murder is on an extreme range that should never be part of an appropriate response. Ironically MigL was worried about character assassination just a couple of weeks ago for a conservative up for a lifetime appointment yet is now engaging in it against Khashoggi. 2
mistermack Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 Surely this is a conspiracy theory not science, and doesn't belong on the site, ever ! ??
dimreepr Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 1 minute ago, mistermack said: Surely this is a conspiracy theory not science, and doesn't belong on the site, ever ! ?? More a judgment on who deserves a life...
MigL Posted October 25, 2018 Author Posted October 25, 2018 You may close this thread down, Swansont. People are more interested in discussing my PERCEIVED political leanings rather than the subject of the OP. Or the fact that I appear dispassionate about murder ( when did I state that ! ) rather than the direction that J Keshoggi and the Crown Prince want to take Saudi society towards. Some even throw D Trump into every reply, implying an association, and then have the gall to post about false equivalence. Some people want to go through life 'seeing' only one viewpoint, the one that fits their sensibilities, and ignore/refuse to discuss any other. And then attach a convenient label to those holding those viewpoints, so they can be dismissed 'en masse' with a generalization. Sometimes the 'tolerance' for alternate views in the politics section amazes me. ( yes, its sarcasm ! )
iNow Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 I have to disagree. This isn't about "different viewpoints" and desire to label people. In your OP, you suggested that due to being "a 'hack' journalist, only interested in promoting the interests of the Muslim Brotherhood, and an extremely vocal critic of the Crown Prince, and his reforms," it's hard to worry about him being murdered and dismembered. THAT'S what people are taking issue with... That you seem okay with people getting whacked so long as you disagree with them. To dismiss this as us not being tolerant of folks who don't fit our "sensibilities" is frankly insulting.
swansont Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 8 hours ago, MigL said: Took the liberty of quoting the whole article from the NYTimes… ( read it if you are interested ) ! Moderator Note You have to know that this is not permitted. And to make it worse, you did not include a link to the piece https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/24/opinion/islam-khashoggi-saudi-arabia-turkey.html 1 hour ago, MigL said: You may close this thread down, Swansont. People are more interested in discussing my PERCEIVED political leanings rather than the subject of the OP. Or the fact that I appear dispassionate about murder ( when did I state that ! ) rather than the direction that J Keshoggi and the Crown Prince want to take Saudi society towards. ! Moderator Note I was going to do so anyway, due to the shortcoming of the OP that have been pointed out (which means you really have no complaint here) and your violation of the copyright rules.
John Cuthber Posted October 25, 2018 Posted October 25, 2018 16 hours ago, MigL said: How upset are you when ISIL members with 'questionable viewpoints' get blown up ? Not sufficiently upset to be unable to distinguish killers from writers.
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