Mass Shooting in PA

[Ten oz]

8 are dead and many others are injured. The assailant has been identified as Robert Bowers. He reported was armed with an AR-15 styled rifle (of course) and target Jewish people. Robert Bowers was an active poster on the “alt-right” version of Twitter, Gab. He is known to have post anti-Semitic hate speech via Gab. 

As usual (it ridiculous mass shooting have become this common) discussion regarding this shooting with include gun control but is it time to also start having discussions about hate speech? 

[Ten oz]

In response to the PA mass shooters connect to Gab (alt-right twiiter) Paypal banned the site from its platform. Is this an appropriate measure by Paypal because Gab enables hate speech or is this political intolerance discriminating against Conservatives?

Quote

 

 Earlier today, a gunman walked into the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and killed eleven people before being apprehended by police. The suspect has since been identified as 46-year-old Robert Bowers, who appears to have had a history anti-semitic speech on the social network Gab. Following these revelations, Paypal banned the site from its payment platform — the latest action taken against the troublesome social network by a major technology company.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/27/18032930/paypal-banned-gab-following-pittsburgh-shooting

 

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Ten oz

[Sensei]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

(...) but is it time to also start having discussions about hate speech? 

Hate speech is just manifestation of hate thinking..

So what, if people would be shutup by e.g. Internet censorship if they will continue personally thinking this way.. and teach their kids to hate others..

Because of freedom of speech such frustrates have opportunity to reveal their true face, and at least partially release abnormal and ridiculous anger at e.g. minorities (or whoever they hate)..

Introduction of e.g. Internet censorship would not wipe out the problem, but just put it below carpet to darkness, where it would still exist..

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Sensei

[iNow]

1 minute ago, Sensei said:

Hate speech is just manifestation of hate thinking..

So what, if people would be shutup by e.g. Internet censorship if they will continue thinking personally this way.. and teach their kids to hate others..

 

Quarantine helps prevent such illness from spreading.

If people feel alone in their hate, they’re less likely to express and share it openly. However, if they feel part of a larger more visible group then they’ll instead act more empowered and likely much more brazen when interacting with others. 

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Hate speech is just manifestation of hate thinking..

So what, if people would be shutup by e.g. Internet censorship if they will continue thinking personally this way.. and teach their kids to hate others..

Because of freedom of speech such frustrates have opportunity to reveal their true face, and at least partially release abnormal and ridiculous anger at e.g. minorities (or whoever they hate)..

Introduction of e.g. Internet censorship would not wipe out the problem, but just put it below carpet to darkness, where it would still exist..

 

Paypal is a private company though. Gab still exists. They (Gab) have not been censored. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

In response to the PA mass shooters connect to Gab (alt-right twiiter) Paypal banned the site from its platform. Is this an appropriate measure by Paypal because Gab enables hate speech or is this political intolerance discriminating against Conservatives?

To be discrimination against conservatives, it must be true that such speech reflects core conservative beliefs.

[rangerx]

6 hours ago, Ten oz said:

As usual (it ridiculous mass shooting have become this common) discussion regarding this shooting with include gun control but is it time to also start having discussions about hate speech? 

I accept that at face value, it's time. It needs no more comment than that.

However,  I'll expect I'll return after the inevitable "both sides" or  "you just want to take our guns" drivel to derail the topic from actually discussing gun control or hate speak.

*sets watch*

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, swansont said:

To be discrimination against conservatives, it must be true that such speech reflects core conservative beliefs.

That is fair. I posed the question poorly. Gab is a right wing social media service similar to Twitter with half a million users. So I guess the question should have been more specifically related to them.

[swansont]

12 hours ago, Ten oz said:

That is fair. I posed the question poorly. Gab is a right wing social media service similar to Twitter with half a million users. So I guess the question should have been more specifically related to them.

To be fair it seems to be a subset of conservatives, and it is troubling that it is such a large subset. 

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

To be fair it seems to be a subset of conservatives, and it is troubling that it is such a large subset. 

More troubling to me than the size of the subset is the denial I see from the majority that the subset exists or that some of the things the majority supports encourages the subset. One must identify a problem before they can fix the problem and I feel conservatives at large are turn a blind eye to it because it helps them on election day. 

[John Cuthber]

16 hours ago, swansont said:

To be discrimination against conservatives, it must be true that such speech reflects core conservative beliefs.

If it walks like a duck...
The views expressed by these "extremists" are the same as those expressed by the goddamned president.

 

17 hours ago, Sensei said:

So what, if people would be shutup by e.g. Internet censorship if they will continue personally thinking this way.. and teach their kids to hate others..

Those in power have always used censorship.
Are you saying it doesn't work?

 

[Strange]

2 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

If it walks like a duck...
The views expressed by these "extremists" are the same as those expressed by the goddamned president.

Similar in the UK where the government, press and assorted right-wing extremists (Farage, Yaxley-Lennon, various American imports such as Bannon) have pretty much normalised hate speech.

This has led to various people being verbally and physically abused on the streets. It is a good job there is not easy access to guns, or it could be much worse.

Unbelievably, Farage was hosting a radio program asking "why the rise in anti-semitism". The irony (and lack of self-awareness) is incredible.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Strange

[John Cuthber]

27 minutes ago, Strange said:

Farage was hosting a radio program asking "why the rise in anti-semitism".

I presume he blames the Jews.

[Strange]

Just now, John Cuthber said:

I presume he blames the Jews.

I’m sure there will be some claiming that this attack was arranged by Soros or something. 

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, Strange said:

I’m sure there will be some claiming that this attack was arranged by Soros or something. 

Agreed. I'm waiting for someone to begin blaming Israel for being so violent.

[Ten oz]

Many in here may not remember but back in 2009 a DHS  intelligence assessment was leaked which included White Nationalist and right-wing extremists as a growing terrorist threat.

Quote

(U//LES) Threats from white supremacist and violent antigovernment groups during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry out violent acts. Nevertheless, the consequences of a prolonged economic downturn—including real estate foreclosures, unemployment, and an inability to obtain credit—could create a fertile recruiting environment for rightwing extremists and even result in confrontations between such groups and government authorities similar to those in the past. — (U//LES) Rightwing extremists have capitalized on the election of the first African American president, and are focusing their efforts to recruit new members, mobilize existing supporters, and broaden their scope and appeal through propaganda, but they have not yet turned to attack planning.--(U//FOUO) The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks. Full release here.

Republicans feigned outrage. They labelled the then Sec. of DHS Janet Napolitano "Big sis" and publicly ridiculed her and the assessment. It lead to years on Napolitano being the focus of verbal attack by the right. 

Quote

April 23, 2009

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano is facing calls for her ouster from a handful of House Republicans in the wake of a department memo that warned of right-wing political extremism in the United States.

"To me, it looks like the extremists are those running the DHS," said Rep. Michelle Bachmann, R-Minn. "An official document of the DHS lists right-wing extremists as 'groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration,' and includes those 'rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority.' So, apparently, according to Homeland Security Department, the American ideal of federalism is a threat to American ideals."

Bachmann and Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-N.C., joined Rep. John Carter, R-Texas, the No. 6 Republican in the House leadership, on the House floor Wednesday evening to demand that Napolitano either resign or be fired by President Obama. Here

Fast forward 10yrs and any number of the things from the assessment (linked above) have come to pass. The rise in White Nationalist groups and stock piling of weapons has lead to numerous homegrown terrorist attacks that have left far too many people dead. Conservative groups refusing to acknowledge this issue didn't start with the election of Donald Trump. Republicans have been providing cover for over a decade. 

[Ten oz]

A man attempted to access a Black Church in KY but was unsuccessful so he instead went to a local Grocery store and murdered 2 people. In response to the PA shooting some, including POTUS, have argued that armed security at houses of worship are the answer. By that logic I suppose Grocery Stores need armed security as well? Is the U.S. destine to be a fully armed nation where teachers, religious leaders, Grocery Store clerks, and etc are armed at all times? The shoot has a violent criminal record yet still legally owned guns. 

Quote

 

Bush allegedly walked into the Kroger, pulled a gun and shot Stallard in the back of the head, then shot him several more times. Then he went outside and killed Jones, who also died from multiple gunshot wounds, according to The Associated Press.

Police say that just a few minutes before heading to the Kroger, Bush first tried to get into the First Baptist Church of Jeffersontown, a predominantly African-American church. Jeffersontown Police Chief Sam Rogers told reporters that surveillance video showed Bush yanking on the church doors. If Bush had come to the church an hour earlier that day, some 70 people would have been gathered there, and the door might have been unlocked, the Courier-Journal reported.

The newspaper also reports that Bush's ex-wife, who is black, said in court records that he had called her a "[N-word] bitch." Bush has a lengthy criminal record, including being convicted of domestic assault for punching his father in the face and lifting his mother by her neck. His convictions did not prevent him from legally owning firearms.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/29/661834642/killing-of-2-at-kentucky-supermarket-is-being-investigated-as-hate-crime

 

 

[mistermack]

To be fair, Bush seems to hate whites as much as blacks. Going by his treatment of his parents, and the fact that he married a black woman.

I hate it when people slag off mass murderers, it's so unfair. 

In the land of the free, it's every American's right to say what he likes, shoot what he likes and kill whoever he likes. It's what makes America great. 

[rangerx]

51 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

In response to the PA shooting some, including POTUS, have argued that armed security at houses of worship are the answer

When they can't play the victim, they blame the victim.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, rangerx said:

When they can't play the victim, they blame the victim.

We (USA) just had 3 domestic terrorism events in basically one week. 13 people were killed. Hundreds potentially could have been killed. All 3 attacks were aimed at minorities and Democrats to include Minorities (Booker, Waters, Holder, Obama, Oprah) and spanned numerous states. The situation is incredibly serious. Had we suffered 3 terrorist attacks throughout the country by ISIL or Al Qaeda the Govt would be putting National Guard members in Airports and on bridges. There would be action. Instead the govt is doing nothing. The President  is blaming media and telling houses of worship to hire security. It is appalling!! 

I think we (U.S.) have become too apathetic towards both mass shootings and hate speech. I think it is clear that the actions of the domestic terrorist were both enabled and encouraged by various conservative factions in the U.S.. Yet with an election around the corner Conservatives broadly appear unwilling to identify the problem or reach across the aisle to show remorse and/or unity. The result is a nation unable to confront either the issue of guns or the issue of hate speech. 

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

To be fair, Bush seems to hate whites as much as blacks. Going by his treatment of his parents, and the fact that he married a black woman.

I hate it when people slag off mass murderers, it's so unfair. 

In the land of the free, it's every American's right to say what he likes, shoot what he likes and kill whoever he likes. It's what makes America great. 

Huh? 

Quote

Louisville resident Ed Harrell told the Courier-Journal that as he crouched in the Kroger parking lot clutching his own revolver, the gunman walked by him and said, "Don't shoot me. I won't shoot you. Whites don't shoot whites."

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/29/661834642/killing-of-2-at-kentucky-supermarket-is-being-investigated-as-hate-crime

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

Need more of this:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/10/30/islamic-community-fundraising-pittsburgh-cooper-intv-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/pittsburgh-synagogue-shooting/

[StringJunky]

12 hours ago, mistermack said:

To be fair, Bush seems to hate whites as much as blacks. Going by his treatment of his parents, and the fact that he married a black woman.

I hate it when people slag off mass murderers, it's so unfair. 

In the land of the free, it's every American's right to say what he likes, shoot what he likes and kill whoever he likes. It's what makes America great. 

He was fair in his contempt for everybody by distributing it equally.

[MonDie]

Haven't read, but Yay Guns is closed.  Re: the hate speech problem.

I've been mulling over and over the relationship between neuroticism (and mental health) and power, given that neurotic, "emotionally unstable" people enjoy less success while antagonistic people, with "callous unemotional" traits, enjoy as much success as anyone else.  It would seem that unemotionality is favored over emotionality even though neurotic people score higher on measures of "emotional empathy."  To be fair, honesty-humility, the sixth factor of personality which splinters off from agreeableness, is probably the better predictor of life success.  Neuroticism would probably be the next factor to splinter, but my printer broke when I tried to print information on the SNAP and DAPP measures of personality.  Neuroticism is related to suicide and being female even though females are less suicidal, which could be explained by sub-factors of the neuroticism factor.  Whenever we direct our attention toward violent behavior -- rather than callous behavior which includes violent behavior -- we reinforce an implicit bias, an availability heuristic on neurotic people, that neurotic people are bad because they can turn violent.  The argument isn't any more logical than suggesting that we shouldn't have toasters if some people electrocute themselves, but it probably sticks with us implicitly via the availability heuristic.  Of course violent tendencies should be reigned in, but that doesn't mean neurotic people should be stigmatized.  They might be a lot more compassionate than a lot of the indifferent people who lord over us.  Incidentally, meditation would increase empathy and emotional control... 🙃  It is hard to say the extent of the damage, but these mass shootings and the argument that guns don't kill people have probably been useful for reinforcing negative stereotypes about powerless people.

Posting now.  Might have more

That said, I also think racism and sectarianism might provide convenient routes for blame externalization and the misdirection of anger.

Re anti-semitism, I have to wonder whether there is a discussion to be had about whether Hitler himself was corrupt even while he scapegoated the Jews for this problem.  I don't like AIPAC any more than I like any other special interest, but I really wish Bernie had won the primary.  I don't think it's a Jew problem.