Trump's Book of Hitler Quotes

[CharonY]

Well, the only consistent stance he has taken that I could see, is a nationalist/nativist one. In other areas he seems just to make positions up as he goes along.

[Ten oz]

7 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Might have been a poor choice of words, but by "position" I meant roughly where he could reasonably be placed on an issue, rhetoric aside. As usual, my personal views would be pretty similar to most here...once we all get over Trump.

Trump's party runs every branch of govt and as CharonY outlined they all fall in line, regardless of their facades, when called upon. One cannot just remove Trump from the equation and pretend there is ground to be covered. His lies create problems problems and devalue the integrity of our (U.S.) system of elected representation. It is the govt, our representatives, who should be laboring over how to modify their beliefs to best reflect the will of the people and not vice versa. They work for us. Trump is supposed to work us. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

59 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Well, the only consistent stance he has taken that I could see, is a nationalist/nativist one. In other areas he seems just to make positions up as he goes along.

And according to CNN...racist:|

Trump Shocks With Racist New Ad Days Before Midterms

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/31/politics/donald-trump-immigration-paul-ryan-midterms/index.html

[CharonY]

 

13 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

And according to CNN...racist:|

Trump Shocks With Racist New Ad Days Before Midterms

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/31/politics/donald-trump-immigration-paul-ryan-midterms/index.html

Well, taken together it is very, very hard not to see racist undertones. Of course one could argue that  the racist elements of his business practices and his current policies are not truly his convictions. But if one add things that he did without any obvious benefits (as e.g. calling for the death of ultimately innocent minority juveniles, and doubling down after proven innocent, claiming to have information on Obama's birth certificate etc.) one has to have a very narrow vision not to see the whole picture. Otoh Trump at least seems to be consistent in this area.

[J.C.MacSwell]

28 minutes ago, CharonY said:

 

Well, taken together it is very, very hard not to see racist undertones. Of course one could argue that  the racist elements of his business practices and his current policies are not truly his convictions. But if one add things that he did without any obvious benefits (as e.g. calling for the death of ultimately innocent minority juveniles, and doubling down after proven innocent, claiming to have information on Obama's birth certificate etc.) one has to have a very narrow vision not to see the whole picture.

Why not let the content and tone of the ad speak for itself? Why does CNN feel the need to title this "Trump Shocks With Racist New Ad Days Before Midterms"? base on the undertones you and they believe are there? And why would they claim it as "shocking" if they feel it is based on his past?

Do you feel this is credible News? Do you feel it is credible to portray it in this manner? If Obama mentioned a criminal in an Ad, and that criminal happened to be Hispanic, how would you feel if someone headlined "Obama Shocks With Racist New Ad Days Before Midterms"?

I shouldn't have to add this, but I will here...I am not equating Obama (who I admire) with Trump (who I don't), I simply want you to get a perspective from a different view so you might see my point, where otherwise you might not.

Can you not see how a Republican, or moderate/independent, might see that CNN article as rubbish? Lose CNN credibility in their eyes?

Edited November 1, 2018 by J.C.MacSwell

[CharonY]

19 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If Obama mentioned a criminal in an Ad, and that criminal happened to be Hispanic, how would you feel if someone headlined "Obama Shocks With Racist New Ad Days Before Midterms"?

Seriously, do you really think that the ad does not try to draw a direct line between Hispanics and crime? It does not merely "mention" a criminal, it clearly implies that the folks in the caravan are killers (and invaders).

And yes if Obama had aired the same ad folks would be correct in calling the ad racist. Is the title sensationalist? Sure. Is it accurate? Well, for the most part (and it draws important parallels to the Willie Horton ad). But this is an entirely different issue.

The goal of the ad is to specifically invoke fear in the viewers. Not of criminals. But of Hispanics. It is to explicitly increase racial tensions. If Obama had posted that video,  one could wonder about the why, as it would be a massive departure from his usual rhetoric. It would not change the substance of the ad, though.  

In Trump's case I doubt that you are not aware of what is meant and what the purpose is. If you try to cling to a neutral ground here, you will need to dismiss literally all context built over the last years (and still not explain the cut to the caravan). And frankly, that would be just silly. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

Seriously, do you really think that the ad does not try to draw a direct line between Hispanics and crime? And yes if Obama had aired the add folks would be correct in calling the ad racist. Is the title sensationalist? Sure. Is it accurate? Well, for the most part (and it draws important parallels to the Willie Horton ad). But this is an entirely different issue.

The goal of the ad is to specifically invoke fear in the viewers. Not of criminals. But of Hispanics. It is to explicitly increase racial tensions. If Obama had posted that video,  one could wonder about the why, as it would be a massive departure from his usual rhetoric. It would not change the substance of the ad, though.

In Trump's case I doubt that you are not aware of what is meant and what the purpose is. If you try to cling to a neutral ground here, you will need to dismiss literally all context built over the last years. And frankly, that would be just silly.

Illegal immigrants and crime...why would Trump want to discourage votes from Hispanics? (and don't assume I am OK with the Ad focusing on Illegal immigrants and crime)

You missed the point with Obama...of course he wouldn't run that Ad...can you not envision an Ad where he could have reasonably referenced a criminal...who happened to be Hispanic?

Again. I shouldn't have to add this, but I will here...I am not equating Obama (who I admire) with Trump (who I don't), I simply want you to get a perspective from a different view so you might see my point, where otherwise you might not.

[Ten oz]

@J.C.MacSwell other outlets are covering the same issue with a similar tone. USA Today "outrage erupts", Washington Post "shows how low Republicans have sunk", Independent "sickening", NBC "racially divisive", and etc. You seem focused on CNN for some reason. Far as I can tell News Media is broadly criticizing the ad. More over CNN and Politicians are not ying and yang of each other. CNN and Politicians have different responsibilities and positions in society. It is unfortunate that your response to a race baiting political ad is to express more disappointment at news media than the politicians who are responsible for the ad. 

12 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Illegal immigrants and crime...why would Trump want to discourage votes from Hispanics? (and don't assume I am OK with the Ad focusing on Illegal immigrants and crime)

You missed the point with Obama...of course he wouldn't run that Ad...can you not envision an Ad where he could have reasonably referenced a criminal...who happened to be Hispanic?

This question to me is honestly absurd to the point of being disrespectful. It is stuff like that which make it difficult to have the sort of civil moderate discussions you proclaim to be interested in having. 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Ten oz

[CharonY]

33 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You missed the point with Obama...of course he wouldn't run that Ad...can you not envision an Ad where he could have reasonably referenced a criminal...who happened to be Hispanic?

I think you missed the whole point if you think that the criminal just happened to be Hispanic. That was the whole point of the ad. Didn't you see the second half?  The way you word it seems to imply that somehow it was incidental. And again, there is no possible interpretation that that was the case. I really fail to see how you can argue differently if you watch the ad. It would be like reading an Agatha Christie novel and ignoring the murder element in it.  It would not be a different view point. It would be outright dismissal of the singular point. It is not a story where there happens to be a murder and a detective. They are the whole point.

 

33 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Illegal immigrants and crime...why would Trump want to discourage votes from Hispanics? (and don't assume I am OK with the Ad focusing on Illegal immigrants and crime)

One important bit, the migrants, who are not even there yet, are not illegal. They want to claim asylum which is a legal process. There is also the big issue of the term "illegal" in that context, as many folks don't understand the precise connotations (in short: unauthorized entry is a misdemeanor, however about half of all immigrants without status entered legally but overstayed. The latter is a civil violation and as such neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, using the term "illegal" in that context throws all together and sometimes implies higher malignancy).

For the second part, there are probably four  reasons. First is part of his own nativist  convictions. America First in his mind seems to be white America first. While initially I was ready (and perhaps stupidly) give him the benefit of doubt, his overall policies clearly show racial bias that appear more than just appeasement to the fringes. Nonetheless the second reason is likely to rally his base, after all, playing the race part seems to work (and studies have shown that racial bias seems to be a driver for Trump support). Third is that by now Trump has accumulated a significant dislike in the Hispanic community, especially those with an immigrant background. On the other hand, those that would vote Trump or GOP regardless, are likely not going to be swayed by the ad. Fourth, getting a high voter turnout for himself is probably more effective than trying to convince those that would vote for him anyway. The assumption (which Bannon also championed) is by striking an emotional cord mobilization is far more effective.

Thus as on a net basis the loss of few uncertain Hispanic votes is likely to be drowned out by the mobilization of folks fearing the "brown invaders". And I should add that GOP lawmakers have also started to condemn the ad. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

21 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 

This question to me is honestly absurd to the point of being disrespectful. It is stuff like that which make it difficult to have the sort of civil moderate discussions you proclaim to be interested in having. 

 

Maybe you can enlighten me... why would Trump want to discourage votes from Hispanics? What am I missing that is so obvious? I don't get the absurdity or disrespect.

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Maybe you can enlighten me... why would Trump want to discourage votes from Hispanics? What am I missing that is so obvious? I don't get the absurdity or disrespect.

BecUse they’re much more likely to vote for his opponents 

[CharonY]

6 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Maybe you can enlighten me... why would Trump want to discourage votes from Hispanics? What am I missing that is so obvious? I don't get the absurdity or disrespect.

I just gave four reasons. But iNow gave a short summary...

 

 

 

[Raider5678]

6 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Maybe you can enlighten me... why would Trump want to discourage votes from Hispanics? What am I missing that is so obvious? I don't get the absurdity or disrespect.

Net gain.

If his ads lose Hispanic votes, but gain even more votes from other races then lost, it's a gain.

 

Additionally, I sent the ad to two Hispanic friends of mine and neither thought it was racist. One is an immigrant too if that plays into it.

That being said, one of them supported the overall message(immigrant) the other thought differently(birthright).

[J.C.MacSwell]

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

BecUse they’re much more likely to vote for his opponents 

I meant discourage them voting Republican but CY  answered the question (I still find it baffling)

Again...don't assume I approve of the Ad

Edited November 1, 2018 by J.C.MacSwell

[Ten oz]

37 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I meant discourage them voting Republican but CY  answered the question (I still find it baffling)

Again...don't assume I approve of the Ad

Look up George Wallace and apply the same question replacing Hispanic with African Americans; why would George Wallace want to discourage African Americans from voting for him? Figure that out, it will be obvious, and you'll have your answer. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

@J.C.MacSwell other outlets are covering the same issue with a similar tone. USA Today "outrage erupts", Washington Post "shows how low Republicans have sunk", Independent "sickening", NBC "racially divisive", and etc. You seem focused on CNN for some reason. Far as I can tell News Media is broadly criticizing the ad. More over CNN and Politicians are not ying and yang of each other. CNN and Politicians have different responsibilities and positions in society. It is unfortunate that your response to a race baiting political ad is to express more disappointment at news media than the politicians who are responsible for the ad. 

This question to me is honestly absurd to the point of being disrespectful. It is stuff like that which make it difficult to have the sort of civil moderate discussions you proclaim to be interested in having. 

 

Just on that point. I have relied on CNN for American (also some World) News for some time. Only recently have I realized how bad it has become...so LOL...I googled Fox as I had heard how bad they were, just to see the "other side". I trust neither as to their slant/opinions and headlines. Prior to that I trusted CNN and most news outlets over most politicians. Though I would always read with some skepticism, I considered the free press an important cornerstone of constitutional democracies. So I am more disappointed in CNN than Trump...I thought he would be a horrible President...so he has not disappointed me as much (I did think he would be better than this, as I thought he might have some respect for his position)

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Just on that point. I have relied on CNN for American (also some World) News for some time. Only recently have I realized how bad it has become...so LOL...I googled Fox as I had heard how bad they were, just to see the "other side". I trust neither as to their slant/opinions and headlines. Prior to that I trusted CNN and most news outlets over most politicians. Though I would always read with some skepticism, I considered the free press an important cornerstone of constitutional democracies. So I am more disappointed in CNN than Trump...I thought he would be a horrible President...so he has not disappointed me as much (I did think he would be better than this, as I thought he might have some respect for his position)

I use Reuters, which is Canadian.    I think it would suit you better. It's not emotive or hyperbolic. https://www.reuters.com.

Edited November 1, 2018 by StringJunky

[iNow]

4 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Can you see the other side of it? Can you not see any substance in Trump's positions? (rhetoric and falsehoods aside?) 

I do suspect he’ll be almost singlehandedly responsible for driving next Tuesday to be one of the highest voter turnouts we’ve seen in more than 5 decades. Does that count?

Edited November 1, 2018 by iNow

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Look up George Wallace and apply the same question replacing Hispanic with African Americans; why would George Wallace want to discourage African Americans from voting for him? Figure that out, it will be obvious, and you'll have your answer. 

George Wallace was openly racist. Suggesting Trump is the same is wrong IMO. 

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

George Wallace was openly racist. Suggesting Trump is the same is wrong IMO. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

I do suspect he’ll be almost singlehandedly responsible for driving next Tuesday one of the highest voter turnouts we’ve seen in more than 5 decades. Does that count?

Not really...though I think you might be correct (for Midterms)

[Ten oz]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

George Wallace was openly racist. Suggesting Trump is the same is wrong IMO. 

Openly racist or not is besides the point. Why would Wallace want to discourage African Americans from voting for him? 

[J.C.MacSwell]

7 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Openly racist or not is besides the point. Why would Wallace want to discourage African Americans from voting for him? 

This comes back to Raider's point

 

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

Net gain.

If his ads lose Hispanic votes, but gain even more votes from other races then lost, it's a gain.

 

Additionally, I sent the ad to two Hispanic friends of mine and neither thought it was racist. One is an immigrant too if that plays into it.

That being said, one of them supported the overall message(immigrant) the other thought differently(birthright).

I just don't see the gain in the racism, where I do see a gain in being against illegal immigration (again...don't read this as my being against immigration...legal or otherwise)

Edited November 1, 2018 by J.C.MacSwell

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

This comes back to Raider's point

 

I just don't see the gain in the racism, where I do see a gain in being against illegal immigration (again...don't read this as being against immigration...legal or otherwise)

Q - why would Wallace want to discourage African Americans from voting for him.

A - to win the vote of people who dislike African Americans.

Hispanics make about 8% of the total voting population in the U.S. and the overwhelming majority of them vote Democrat. So Trump is truly only putting at risk around 2% of voter who probably left long ago anyway in a play which will motivate his base.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Ten oz

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Q - why would Wallace want to discourage African Americans from voting for him.

A - to win the vote of people who dislike African Americans.

Hispanics make about 8% of the total voting population in the U.S. and the overwhelming majority of them vote Democrat. So Trump is truly only putting at risk around 2% of voter who probably left long ago anyway in a play which will motivate his base.

So. You believe this has no negative effect, for Trump/Republicans, for any part of the remaining 92% if racism is directed at Hispanics? That's a pretty sad thought...

Edited November 1, 2018 by J.C.MacSwell