The ultimate European Union expansion

[Moreno]

Doesn't it seem to you that ultimately the time came for EU to make the most decisive step in its history and accept Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia making economic unification of Europe complete in this way? 

[Strange]

Ukraine AND Russia?

[jajrussel]

On 11/9/2018 at 6:36 PM, Moreno said:

Doesn't it seem to you that ultimately the time came for EU to make the most decisive step in its history and accept Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus and Russia making economic unification of Europe complete in this way? 

Unification? I’m thinking it would be more like economic control.

If you look at old trade route maps you might notice that historically the economic thought was it was better economically to go around. I’m guessing the fear of having no economic control of their future is why they spent so much money going around.

Then consider that the types of government appear to be incompatible.

Also ask what would have happened had the Ukraine been part of the EU when Russia decided to annex  Crimea? With I heard a large number of Crimea’s citizens considering themselves Russian anyway. Does the EU say well okay in that case go ahead.

Hmm, has Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus And Russia shown an interest in joining the EU?

How, is it that you would see it as a decisive step from an EU Perspective when there is already a demonstrated possibility that at sometime in the future once again it could be said; “We don’t see the problem, most of them consider themselves to be Russian anyway...” as they shut down the economies of those EU members who would dare to complain.

 Wouldn’t it be an even more decisive step if the EU was to accept  Indonesia. I don’t know that they have or even would ask, but their governments are much more similar, however there would also be the danger, of Indonesia just giving everything it has worked for and accomplished away. I’m thinking that from the EU’s perspective that reunification would be the more desirable move based on old trade route maps.

I do agree that what you suggest would be a decisive historical step for the EU, but I would like to know your thoughts and reasons as to why?

[Sensei]

On 10.11.2018 at 12:38 AM, Strange said:

Ukraine AND Russia?

For normal people of Ukraine and Russia, it would be great news.. for politician leaders, oligarchs and businessmen around the current governments, it would be complete disaster..

 

[Strange]

Ukraine could be admitted into the EU. But letting Russia join would be a bit like a deer inviting a lion into its home. 

[Sensei]

1 minute ago, Strange said:

But letting Russia join would be a bit like a deer inviting a lion into its home. 

...a drop of water bores through rock ...

 

[DrP]

50 minutes ago, Strange said:

letting Russia join would be a bit like a deer inviting a lion into its home

I think it would be great - they would have a 1/28th say in how the EU was run - but they would have to answer to the EU courts if they got up to any funny business. Why not? It would be a great marriage...  they would just become part of Europe. I doubt the US would approve...  and it would make the UK look pretty silly for leaving - but I'd be down with it 100% for building bridges and forging future world peace.

 

[dimreepr]

1 hour ago, jajrussel said:

Unification? I’m thinking it would be more like economic control.

1 hour ago, Sensei said:

For normal people of Ukraine and Russia, it would be great news.. for politician leaders, oligarchs and businessmen around the current governments, it would be complete disaster..

2

as long as we think self-interest is more important than survival it will be a complete disaster.

[Silvestru]

That's not how any of this works guys... 

[dimreepr]

15 minutes ago, DrP said:

I think it would be great - they would have a 1/28th say in how the EU was run - but they would have to answer to the EU courts if they got up to any funny business. Why not? It would be a great marriage...  they would just become part of Europe. I doubt the US would approve...  and it would make the UK look pretty silly for leaving - but I'd be down with it 100% for building bridges and forging future world peace.

 

 

I'm with you bro... 

3 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

That's not how any of this works guys... 

not yet...

[Silvestru]

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

not yet...

No I mean EU is a economical union as well. It's not so easy to adhere to EU. Many member states have not yet even adopted the European currency. Romania, Poland etc.

I agree for peace friendship and inclusion but what you guys are describing is some new meaning for the EU group. Political tension aside, the point of this is that there are certain standards needed to be able to join and to have a single market. Moldova for example (if we take these standards into consideration) cannot join EU yet. (political reasons aside)
Also I think changing Moldavian currency (moldavian LEu) to Euro would have a crushing effect on their economy.

But also politically speaking:
https://www.rferl.org/a/european-parliament-slams-moldova-as-a-state-captured-by-oligarchic-interests-/29600720.html

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

I agree for peace friendship and inclusion but what you guys are describing is some new meaning for the EU group.

hence

20 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

not yet...

 

[DrP]

7 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

No I mean EU is a economical union as well. It's not so easy to adhere to EU. Many member states have not yet even adopted the European currency. Romania, Poland etc.

I agree for peace friendship and inclusion but what you guys are describing is some new meaning for the EU group. Political tension aside, the point of this is that there are certain standards needed to be able to join and to have a single market. Moldova for example (if we take these standards into consideration) cannot join EU yet. (political reasons aside)
Also I think changing Moldavian currency (moldavian LEu) to Euro would have a crushing effect on their economy.

But also politically speaking:
https://www.rferl.org/a/european-parliament-slams-moldova-as-a-state-captured-by-oligarchic-interests-/29600720.html

But what does that have to do with Russia?  They are easy stable enough to join the EU no? I don't get it. Once in they would have to comply with many laws that would help them. Their military might would strengthen ours (the EU). Win win imo.

[Silvestru]

Just now, dimreepr said:

hence
not yet...

dim, it's not about not yet. Many countries just don't want to join because it would have a negative effect. 

Quote

 

Switzerland — negative impact on the current banking system and they would have to pay to subsidies to poorer countries. 

Norway — because they have a sovereign wealth fund built from the proceeds of selling natural resources (oil / gas) which basically means they have a trillion dollars invested to pay for their government spending after the resources are gone. I suspect retaining financial control of this rather than being sucked into European rules and contributions is the main reason but fishing waters may also be a factor.

Iceland — Doesn’t want to be part of the common fisheries policy as it would wreck a major industry. Applied in 2009 but suspended the process indefinitely.

 

These 3 countries have very strong economies. What does not yet mean here? We are waiting for them to be more friendly and uninterested in wealth?

1 minute ago, DrP said:

But what does that have to do with Russia?  They are easy stable enough to join the EU no? I don't get it. Once in they would have to comply with many laws that would help them. Their military might would strengthen ours (the EU). Win win imo.

See above  Russia has many topics to change before adhering to EU.
Again guys, please understand that when we say EU we should be using the current agreed meaning. It's not like I don't want these countries to join because I don't like them.

Russia for example does not have the same regulations and laws that are required for a number of topics including:
Economy
Human Rights
Military
Global Politics in general.

[DrP]

Just now, Silvestru said:

Russia for example does not have the same regulations and laws that are required for a number of topics including:
Economy
Human Rights
Military
Global Politics in general.

...  allot which would be sorted out if they engaged in talks to join the EU.  They would be given a list of things to comply to.  If they did that then again, I say, why not? 

I doubt they (or at least their leaders) want in anyway.  

 

[dimreepr]

6 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Global Politics in general.

change...  allot

[Silvestru]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

...  allot which would be sorted out if they engaged in talks to join the EU.  They would be given a list of things to comply to.  If they did that then again, I say, why not? 

I doubt they (or at least their leaders) want in anyway.  

It's a lot like saying Pepsi should just join Coca Cola. PoLa^tm  would then have monopol on the fizzy drink industry and it would be beneficial for both sides.

The thought is really nice though.

(I know they used to be one company long time ago. Please don't bring that up as a counterargument haha)

[jajrussel]

58 minutes ago, DrP said:

I think it would be great - they would have a 1/28th say in how the EU was run - but they would have to answer to the EU courts if they got up to any funny business. Why not? It would be a great marriage...  they would just become part of Europe. I doubt the US would approve...  and it would make the UK look pretty silly for leaving - but I'd be down with it 100% for building bridges and forging future world peace.

 

Do you really think it would be 1/28th of a say in how the EU was run.

 

16 minutes ago, DrP said:

But what does that have to do with Russia?  They are easy stable enough to join the EU no? I don't get it. Once in they would have to comply with many laws that would help them. Their military might would strengthen ours (the EU). Win win imo.

And if Russia should decide it doesn’t have to comply?

Yes the EU Military world be greatly strengthened should it remain yours (the EU’s).

I don’t know that the EU ever considered the UK military as theirs, why would they consider Russia’s military as theirs? Even if they did only have 1/28 control of the EU how much of the military do you think they would control? 1/28th?

[DrP]

10 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

It's a lot like saying Pepsi should just join Coca Cola. PoLa^tm  would then have monopol on the fizzy drink industry and it would be beneficial for both sides.

It's nothing like that...  nonsense bear. It's about stabilizing the area.  No 2 countries in the EU have ever gone to war since it's creation... that might not sound very impressive but  before that there were permanent wars over centuries and centuries, right up to its formation in the 90s.  It has never been so stable.  You will get people finding problems and criticisms all the time whatever happens, but screw those war mongers and nationalists...  peace is the way forward....  or war and death and misery...  we have a choice.

5 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

And if Russia should decide it doesn’t have to comply?

Then the EU would deal with that the same way it deals with any other member country that flaunts the rules. It has systems set up for such things.

 

6 minutes ago, jajrussel said:

I don’t know that the EU ever considered the UK military as theirs, why would they consider Russia’s military as theirs?

well no - but it adds to the strength of the alliance. You go to war with France for example then you go to war with the whole of Europe...   if Russia were part of Europe then that just adds their might to the equations. You attack France then you are attacking the UK, Germany, Russia, Poland etc..

I doubt it will ever happen being honest...   not for generations anyway...  who can say?   I am not seriously putting it forward as a realistic solution right away -- but if they embraced it it would solve a lot of problems right off the bat.

 

[Silvestru]

16 minutes ago, DrP said:

peace is the way forward....  or war and death and misery...  we have a choice.

Like I said, don't confuse the EU with what it isn't. I think something closer to what you describe that is already in place is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

The United Nations (UN) is an intergovernmental organization that was tasked to maintain international peace and security, develop friendly relations among nations, achieve international co-operation and be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations.

What we are talking about is:

European Union (EU) is a political and economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe.^[13]  The EU has developed an internal single market through a standardised system of laws that apply in all member states in those matters, and only those matters, where members have agreed to act as one. EU policies aim to ensure the free movement of people, goods, services and capital within the internal market,^[14] enact legislation in justice and home affairs and maintain common policies on trade,^[15] agriculture,^[16]fisheries and regional development.^[17] For travel within the Schengen Area, passport controlshave been abolished.^[18] A monetary union was established in 1999 and came into full force in 2002 and is composed of 19 EU member states which use the euro currency.

As you can see EU main focus is economy, trade and economical progress. Of course peace is a necessity for this but that is not the main focus.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Silvestru

[DrP]

10 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

As you can see EU main focus is economy, trade and economical progress. Of course peace is a necessity for this but that is not the main focus

not the main focus - but as I said - there have been NO wars internally in the EU since it's creation.  . It is more than a trade agreement - it like a single entity - we are all under the same government  - that's why the right wingers hate it - immigration and conceding power to a higher authority.  They don't care if the laws are better or not, they just don't want to be thought of as 'ruled' by a foreign country and they don't want foreign people just walking in unchecked.

 

 

[dimreepr]

who knew?

[Silvestru]

20 minutes ago, DrP said:

not the main focus - but as I said - there have been NO wars internally in the EU since it's creation.  . It is more than a trade agreement - it like a single entity - we are all under the same government  - that's why the right wingers hate it - immigration and conceding power to a higher authority.  They don't care if the laws are better or not, they just don't want to be thought of as 'ruled' by a foreign country and they don't want foreign people just walking in unchecked.

Would you say that Norway or Iceland has more chances of going to war or being attacked  than Germany, France, Poland or whatever EU country? It's not really connected with the EU group. They are just peaceful right now.

[DrP]

Norway, Iceland, The Ukraine? 

Just now, Silvestru said:

It's not really connected with the EU group. They are just peaceful right now.

No way - I don't think so - The formation of the EU has stabilised the area.  'It just happens to be peaceful now'?   Really?  Come on   - it is a direct result of us all being under the same banner. There has never been such a prolonged era of peace and stability in the area for centuries.

[Strange]

2 hours ago, DrP said:

But what does that have to do with Russia?  They are easy stable enough to join the EU no? I don't get it. Once in they would have to comply with many laws that would help them. Their military might would strengthen ours (the EU). Win win imo.

Are we talking about the same Russia? I’m thinking of the presidential dictatorship that is riddled with corruption and without an independent legal system