StringJunky Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, Strange said: Well, I agree it is a point of view. In the same way as saying I can't understand the appeal of golf. But golf still has its fans and some people believe in gods. I didn't say gods don't exist just that some people don't believe in them. OK.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 A person may say, "I do not believe in God." That same person is not saying, "I will never believe in God." Stephen Hawking seems to have necessitated for himself his own formal unbelief in God, and therefore of judgement, when he rejected his wife, who had so lovingly and continuously dedicated herself to him that she not only saved his life, but enabled him to become the scientist he was. It's sad that he formally restated that position shortly before he passed on to meet him. Oh well, surprises happen. And God is merciful.
Strange Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Pride is universal in the wretched human condition, and pride DEMANDS us to think we know it all, whether we bow down to pride and worship it is another thing. This is obviously not true. I know at least one person who doesn't think like that.
Zosimus Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 1 hour ago, John Cuthber said: OK, pick something that you think isn't physical. Qualia. That is the point of the qualia argument.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, Strange said: This is obviously not true. I know at least one person who doesn't think like that. I included that person in my statement that it is whether or not we bow down and worship pride or not that either blinds our minds or enables us to think freely.
Strange Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: It's sad that he formally restated that position shortly before he passed on to meet him. That has been said about many people but I but you can't provide any evidence. Quote And God is merciful Except when saying an eye for an eye, or condemning people to eternal torment. Your god is also a cruel and jealous god 6 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: I included that person in my statement You included me? How sweet
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, zapatos said: Sounds like you are at a pulpit. At this time I'll consider that a compliment, though at other times I'd consider it an insult, but as I mature I have to see the people at formal government approved pulpits as mere imperfect humans. I consider myself ordained by belief in God who is love, and the Word in the KJV to have a duty and pleasure to preach, but my ordination is not of man, and pulling the pin on a grenade is something I preach against.
John Cuthber Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, coffeesippin said: I consider myself ordained by belief in God who is love That's the love that tells you to kill people for being gay and tells you where to get your slaves from. 1
iNow Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, StringJunky said: This is semantic really, but to say "I don't believe"' shows a commitment to a pov, whereas saying "I don't know" is an agnostic approach that is non-committal. This is a false dichotomy. The two are not mutually exclusive. One is a statement of belief. I do or do not believe in a god or gods. I’m either theist or atheist. The other is a statement of knowledge. I do believe in god but am not certain, or I do not believe in god but am not certain. I’m either an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. Further, agnosticism is hardly 50/50, as if sitting on a fence and equally ready to fall to one side or the other. There are degrees of certainty and belief. On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 = absolutely certain god exists and 7 = absolutely certain god does not exist, I may be a 6 while you may be a 4, but we’d still both be accurately described as agnostic atheists. Given the complexity and dynamism of the god concept, the various religious ideologies, and the fact that the billions of humans on our planet each have billions of personal versions of these concepts, precision in phrasing and proper use of phrases like agnostic and atheist is critical.
Strange Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, iNow said: Further, agnosticism is hardly 50/50, as if sitting on a fence and equally ready to fall to one side or the other. There are degrees of certainty and belief. Very good point. There been some very significant religious thinkers who have been troubled by doubt about their beliefs.
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: And God is merciful. Not always though. God can be pretty ruthless and uncaring, as well as merciful. On average, he's about as merciful as blind chance.
StringJunky Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, iNow said: This is a false dichotomy. The two are not mutually exclusive. One is a statement of belief. I do or do not believe in a god or gods. I’m either theist or atheist. The other is a statement of knowledge. I do believe in god but am not certain, or I do not believe in god but am not certain. I’m either an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. Further, agnosticism is hardly 50/50, as if sitting on a fence and equally ready to fall to one side or the other. There are degrees of certainty and belief. On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 = absolutely certain god exists and 7 = absolutely certain god does not exist, I may be a 6 while you may be a 4, but we’d still both be accurately described as agnostic atheists. Given the complexity and dynamism of the god concept, the various religious ideologies, and the fact that the billions of humans on our planet each have billions of personal versions of these concepts, precision in phrasing and proper use of phrases like agnostic and atheist is critical. "Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable." - Wiki "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities . Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist." - Wiki My distinction seems ok to me. Atheism is a positive action of disbelief. 5 minutes ago, Strange said: Very good point. There been some very significant religious thinkers who have been troubled by doubt about their beliefs. However you quantify Agnosticism by 'less or more', it is defined by or contains doubt inherent in its definition. Edited November 17, 2018 by StringJunky
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Strange said: That has been said about many people but I but you can't provide any evidence. Except when saying an eye for an eye, or condemning people to eternal torment. Your god is also a cruel and jealous god You included me? How sweet If thou judgest thyself to be such a fortunate man that pride does not blind you you must be a happy man, I hope your judgement is true. "Eye for eye" was under the Mosaic law, and men were so violent in that day that that same law also commanded them to no longer eat raw meat, but to cook it first. The new law which came after man had been somewhat open to non violence through the law (for penalty under law does inhibit violence) is the law of the spirit of love which says, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10 That same Spirit in that same book says, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Mathew 26:54 It's no wonder so many people DON'T believe in God, with so many in imperialist pulpits preaching for war (resulting in the promotion of their own personal imperial empire.)
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 Also, I think there's a difference between saying I don't believe something, and I disbelieve something. The first to me just means that you don't positively believe something. It doesn't mean you've discounted the possibility.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 The old testament is for those who are under the law with its curses on lawbreakers. The new says "He who is without sin cast the first stone."
iNow Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, StringJunky said: My distinction seems ok to me. Atheism is a positive action of disbelief. That sounds more like the less common version, strong atheism. Most find the god conjecture not compelling enough so simply don’t believe. Others actively believe in the nonexistence of god or gods. You seem to be describing the latter. 1
StringJunky Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: The old testament is for those who are under the law with its curses on lawbreakers. The new says "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Here I am.
beecee Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 3 hours ago, ADeepThinker said: Do you feel as confident in atheism as you ever have, or has it slipped any? Your question/s I believe have adequately been answered. I would just add that in actual fact, it is religion that is in decline, and that the vast majority of believers are believers in name only and simply wish to align with the apparent strong convention of being labeled a christian country or muslim country or whatever, depending on the convention in that particular country. That along with the fear factor of the unknown and threats of eternal damnation. It certainly will be a long time before the religious convention/s completely die out if at all....there will always be pockets of resistance to the eradication of such evil. I do agree though that religion or the belief in any deity may have been an original necessity before science and the scientific method evolved. We needed to explain the universe around us, and conjuring up some supernatural, spiritual or paranormal explanation was the easiest way to do that. Even though no actual evidence was forthcoming, it seemed far easier dreaming up of gods existing in the Sun, Moon Mountains etc, even though no actual evidence could ever be available to support such myth. Science and the scientific methodology has largely eradicated such nonsense, and the ability to explain the universe and life to much greater extents, has seen science push religious beliefs and associated myths into near oblivion in actual fact, and what we have now is simply the scrambling to hang onto such mythical beliefs, even if by name only. Personally I find being labelled an atheist or an agnostic, or a theist as degrading and unnecessary. It's a shame that more people had not had access to the great educator, Carl Sagan. A man I believe that has done plenty to promote the scientific methodology and eliminate the need or desire for myth.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, mistermack said: Also, I think there's a difference between saying I don't believe something, and I disbelieve something. The first to me just means that you don't positively believe something. It doesn't mean you've discounted the possibility. Reaction to the comments "I don't believe something" or "I disbelieve something" is much more important than the statement. If someone says, "I don't believe in the Big Bang," and he is cast out as intellectually limited and not worthy of consideration, then those casting him out are condemning themselves to disbelief in the possibility that perhaps there WAS no big bang. Same with someone saying, "I don't believe in God" or for that matter "I believe in God." Perhaps the person saying "I believe in God" is deceived, and the person who says, "I don't believe in God" is deceived, perhaps the latter person DOES believe in God but isn't intellectually aware of God, but DOES believe in love, which is what God is. 12 minutes ago, StringJunky said: Here I am. That short statement could open up a few days or years discussion among bible believers and disbelievers .. not all critical or condemning of your statement. However, that discussion would take away from the topic 'is atheism dead.'
Strange Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 25 minutes ago, StringJunky said: Atheism is a positive action of disbelief. Is belief an "action"? It is not something we can choose to do or not do (I don't think) 27 minutes ago, StringJunky said: However you quantify Agnosticism by 'less or more', it is defined by or contains doubt inherent in its definition. Except I wasn't quantifying agnosticism. I was quantifying belief! I guess disbelief can be quantified a well. There are atheists where the "a" seems to stand for "anti" and others where it is closer to apathy or indifference. 32 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: "Eye for eye" was under the Mosaic law So your god changed his mind about what was good and bad? 1
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 A biblical example .. "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."
beecee Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Perhaps the person saying "I believe in God" is deceived, and the person who says, "I don't believe in God" is deceived, perhaps the latter person DOES believe in God but isn't intellectually aware of God, but DOES believe in love, which is what God is. Perhaps more correctly the person who believes in god is just not aware of the evidence that is available to show that perhaps this god is just not needed and is superfluous as all the stuff he was supposed to have done, can be explain with supporting evidence by science, and perhaps the person who does not believe in god, is just aware of this evidence that shows him/her/it as unnecessary and superfluous. And finally perhaps the majority that claim ID status, as opposed to being atheist and/or agnostic, are more driven by fear and convention to maintain a semblance of that belief. Edited November 17, 2018 by beecee
iNow Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 Atheist. A*Theist. Literally Not Theist. Anti-Theist is something else. Closer to Hitchens.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, beecee said: Perhaps more correctly the person who believes in god is just not aware of the evidence that is available to show that perhaps this god is just not needed and is superfluous as all the stuff he was supposed to have done, can be explain with supporting evidence by science, and perhaps the person who does not believe in god, is just aware of this evidence that shows him/her/it as unnecessary and superfluous. And finally perhaps the majority that claim ID status, as opposed to being atheist and/or agnostic, are more driven by fear and convention to maintain a semblance of that belief. I believe in pure science that seeks answers rather than false science which claims to have the answer, I have believe in that science since my childhood microscope and the nickname given to be by my friends Sputnick because of my interest what I now call cosmology. I have only stopped denying God's existence since riding atop a pile of lumber on a freight train through the Rocky Mountains on a cloudless night at or near midnight 41 years ago when I asked, "God, if you're real and you're up there give me a sign.' And a cosmological sign, a huge meteorite flashed across the sky, and my heart and mind changed to belief. About 20 minutes later though doubt entered, and I asked, "God, if you're real, and you're up there, do it again." I asked for the exact same sign, knowing the mathematical improbability of that sign. It seemed the SAME meteorite flashed across the sky, the same brightness, the same length of travel. Now I know that God CAN do that by an act of creation, or because scripture says he can guide our thoughts, he could have caused me to ask for that same sign, with the meteorite on its way in his good time. It's not important to me which method he used. 14 minutes ago, Strange said: While I would share your concern with an extreme reaction to someone denying the big bang model, there is a difference : there is evidence for the big bang model so belief doesn't come into our ; there is no evidence for gods so that is purely a matter of belief. The evidence for Big Bang became immediately so tenuous that a fabrication had to be thrown in .. Expansion, the only evidence for Expansion being the need for it. For evidence of God you can read my post on my freight train hopping, and suspect I'm either fabricating, which I'm not, or had experienced coincidence, but you will have to admit the coincidence was mathematically challenged.
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: I have only stopped denying God's existence since riding atop a pile of lumber on a freight train through the Rocky Mountains on a cloudless night at or near midnight 41 years ago when I asked, "God, if you're real and you're up there give me a sign.' And a cosmological sign, a huge meteorite flashed across the sky, and my heart and mind changed to belief. About 20 minutes later though doubt entered, and I asked, "God, if you're real, and you're up there, do it again." I asked for the exact same sign, knowing the mathematical improbability of that sign. It seemed the SAME meteorite flashed across the sky, the same brightness, the same length of travel. Pack of lies.
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