coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, beecee said: Some science by necessity is speculative. That is the step before it advances to theory status, the highest rung on the ladder for science. eg: https://www.astrosociety.org/publication/a-universe-from-nothing/ but this is off topic I think so perhaps if you are inclined, start another thread? I wasn't attempting to interject scientific discussion, only to clarify my position in this discussion, that my belief in God is not because of an unbelief in science. All of the sciences though, in my knowledge, act as evidence for God, and increase my fascination with science, and my desire to explore science increases. 5 minutes ago, mistermack said: Pack of lies. An honest and flatly stated opinion. But what would be the benefit to me of making such lies, unless I wanted to be seen as a liar and a crackpot? I'm not paid to preach God. I'm 71 years old having no need of income other than my Seniors' pension which did not come from preaching God. Why, Mistermack, do you think I would tell such a whopper .. a tale that would require a far greater imagination than I have seen in almost any tale of fictional adventure. Edited November 17, 2018 by coffeesippin Added the imagination thought.
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: An honest and flatly stated opinion. But what would be the benefit to me of making such lies, unless I wanted to be seen as a liar and a crackpot? I'm not paid to preach God. I'm 71 years old having no need of income other than my Seniors' pension which did not come from preaching God. Why, Mistermack, do you think I would tell such a whopper? Why people tell lies isn't always logical. Your question could have a multitude of answers. Including self delusion. Lying to yourself is still lying. Probably one of the commonest. Why would people lie to themselves? I don't know, but they do.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, Strange said: There are no fabrications and a large amount of solid evidence. It is a bit silly to make up objections like this. Meteors are common especially at certain times. If you see one, you are quite likely to see another soon after from the same source and on the same course These two were completely isolated. I had been watching the sky for quite a while, lying on my back in my sleeping bag. I watched the sky for quite a while after. It was not a shower, and of course I've seen showers. They were also very large, and you know how rare they are. But of course you have only my word for these things. A word from which I have nothing to gain.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, mistermack said: Why people tell lies isn't always logical. Your question could have a multitude of answers. Including self delusion. Lying to yourself is still lying. Probably one of the commonest. Why would people lie to themselves? I don't know, but they do. Most lies, in my experience, come from fear or desire for gain. I have nothing to fear here, nothing to gain.
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, coffeesippin said: Most lies, in my experience, come from fear or desire for gain. I have nothing to fear here, nothing to gain. If you want to see people lying for Jesus, search Ballinspittle. I was there. There were thousands of people lying their heads off for Jesus. Incredibly funny. I could hardly keep a straight face.
zapatos Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: These two were completely isolated. I had been watching the sky for quite a while, lying on my back in my sleeping bag. I watched the sky for quite a while after. It was not a shower, and of course I've seen showers. They were also very large, and you know how rare they are. But of course you have only my word for these things. A word from which I have nothing to gain. I just now asked God for a sign and my dog licked herself. I wasn't sure that was how God would present himself to me so I asked for another sign, and my OTHER dog licked herself. If that isn't proof of God I don't know what is. 2
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, beecee said: It's totally true though. Perhaps you need to check out the speculative sections and of course trash. Plus of course many simply like to attempt to trash science or some aspect of it, as a crusade type of endeavour against the sciences in general, because it has pushed the need for any deity back into near oblivion. The fear of the unknown, the fear of the myth of eternal damnation is strong. Eternal damnation is done away with by the scripture I included here .. "... saviour of all men, especially of those who believe." All science is speculation. "Man will never fly .. man will never walk on the moon." Those were solid affirmations of 'truth' by respectable scientists. But lunatics like Jules Verne were not trying to destroy their foundation of belief .. only build on a foundation of science. 3 minutes ago, Strange said: There is no such thing. You may be thinking of inflation but that is hypothesised for a completely different reason. This is off topic so if you want to discuss it further, start a new thread Yes, Inflation, sorry, my aging memory and all that. Last word. 2 minutes ago, zapatos said: I just now asked God for a sign and my dog licked herself. I wasn't sure that was how God would present himself to me so I asked for another sign, and my OTHER dog licked herself. If that isn't proof of God I don't know what is. I hope you're on your knees giving thanks.
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) To be honest, coffeesippin, your mix preaching and throwing in big words is becoming ridiculous. I can't see how it can be classed as science or philosophy. Both supposedly work from evidence. Not scribblings from old books from the iron age, or imaginary lights in the sky. If you want to debate with people here in an honest way, why not try doing so from a factual basis? Edited November 17, 2018 by mistermack
studiot Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, zapatos said: I just now asked God for a sign and my dog licked herself. I wasn't sure that was how God would present himself to me so I asked for another sign, and my OTHER dog licked herself. If that isn't proof of God I don't know what is. Why do bunnies keep dogs? Edited November 17, 2018 by studiot
beecee Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: All science is speculation. "Man will never fly .. man will never walk on the moon." Those were solid affirmations of 'truth' by respectable scientists. All science is speculation until shown otherwise. That is the greatest benefit of science and the scientific method.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, mistermack said: To be honest, coffeesippin, your mix preaching and throwing in big words is becoming ridiculous. I can't see how it can be classed as science of philosophy. Both supposedly work from evidence. Not scribblings from old books from the iron age, or imaginary lights in the sky. If you want to debate with people here in an honest way, why not try doing so from a factual basis? Mack .. the topic we are discussing is Is Atheism Dead. Are you going to discuss or simply hurl accusations of dishonesty? A factual basis for Is Atheism Dead can be presented by one person saying, "I do not believe in God." That would prove that Atheism is NOT dead, and would be the end of the discussion. Perhaps you would like to say you do not believe in God, and so Atheism is not dead, and suggest the moderator close the topic? 2 minutes ago, studiot said: Why do bunnies keep dogs? To keep Elmer Fudd and his shotgun away?
beecee Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, coffeesippin said: Mack .. the topic we are discussing is Is Atheism Dead. Are you going to discuss or simply hurl accusations of dishonesty? A factual basis for Is Atheism Dead can be presented by one person saying, "I do not believe in God." That would prove that Atheism is NOT dead, and would be the end of the discussion. Perhaps you would like to say you do not believe in God, and so Atheism is not dead, and suggest the moderator close the topic? Except it is religion and ID mythical beliefs that are close to death, rather then atheism, although as I have said, most probably held onto in name only, and that inner fear in some, of eternal damnation.
Zosimus Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 1 hour ago, beecee said: Your question/s I believe have adequately been answered. I would just add that in actual fact, it is religion that is in decline, and that the vast majority of believers are believers in name only and simply wish to align with the apparent strong convention of being labeled a christian country or muslim country or whatever, depending on the convention in that particular country. That along with the fear factor of the unknown and threats of eternal damnation. It certainly will be a long time before the religious convention/s completely die out if at all....there will always be pockets of resistance to the eradication of such evil. I do agree though that religion or the belief in any deity may have been an original necessity before science and the scientific method evolved. We needed to explain the universe around us, and conjuring up some supernatural, spiritual or paranormal explanation was the easiest way to do that. Even though no actual evidence was forthcoming, it seemed far easier dreaming up of gods existing in the Sun, Moon Mountains etc, even though no actual evidence could ever be available to support such myth. Science and the scientific methodology has largely eradicated such nonsense, and the ability to explain the universe and life to much greater extents, has seen science push religious beliefs and associated myths into near oblivion in actual fact, and what we have now is simply the scrambling to hang onto such mythical beliefs, even if by name only. Personally I find being labelled an atheist or an agnostic, or a theist as degrading and unnecessary. It's a shame that more people had not had access to the great educator, Carl Sagan. A man I believe that has done plenty to promote the scientific methodology and eliminate the need or desire for myth. It is rare to see a post so devoid of any semblance of fact. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world followed closely by Christianity. By 2050, the number of Muslims and Christians will be the same. By way of comparison, only 9 percent of the US population disbelieves in God and only 3 percent are atheists. Even then, 8 percent of atheists believe in God, and 2 percent of atheists are certain that God exists. There is no correlation between the rise of the scientific method and general rejection of God — and with good reason. Science is incapable of answering the questions that concern people. Questions such as whether abortion should be legal, whether gay marriage should be acceptable, or whether Honduran immigrants should be allowed to petition for asylum in the US simply cannot be answered by science. Sadly for you, a person who carries only a hammer sees everything as a nail to be pounded.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, beecee said: Except it is religion and ID mythical beliefs that are close to death, rather then atheism, although as I have said, most probably held onto in name only, and that inner fear in some, of eternal damnation. Those things are not the topic of discussion. the death of Atheism is the topic. And you are wrong in your statement, religions are flourishing, whether that is good or bad is another question and would take months of discussion. Some of those old established denominations are approaching death, but that is not religion in general. Mythical beliefs have nothing to do with Atheism except truths to a believer are called myths by the unbeliever. If you fear eternal damnation, believe in Jesus, for he died for not only your sins but the sins of the whole world, as those old books in the bible say.
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Mack .. the topic we are discussing is Is Atheism Dead. Are you going to discuss or simply hurl accusations of dishonesty? A factual basis for Is Atheism Dead can be presented by one person saying, "I do not believe in God." That would prove that Atheism is NOT dead, and would be the end of the discussion. Perhaps you would like to say you do not believe in God, and so Atheism is not dead, and suggest the moderator close the topic? I do not believe in god. I think it's a silly idea that wasn't so silly in the stone age, bronze age or iron age. But it's a silly idea now, and only maintained by the cruel exploitation of the innocent trust of little children by intensive and exhaustive indoctrination. I felt that you insulted my intelligence with your ludicrous meteor story. But of course, you are used to preaching to the indoctrinated, so maybe you weren't to know. But if someone turns up with proper evidence, I'm ready to swap right now. I have been for the last fifty years, but it's never happened.
Phi for All Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 25 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Your pride tells you that you know so much that the other ideas are silly. This is why I feel, as a species whose intelligence has evolved to a high degree, it's so very important to learn as much as you can about the natural world. When you don't know things, others who do appear unintelligible and silly. You can't know what you don't know, and your ability to judge the trustworthiness of data you receive and put together reasoned explanations for various phenomena is impaired. That's when you either make things up, or start believing others who just made things up. This is why I'm a weak atheist, and treat god(s) the same way I treat stamp collecting.
Strange Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 20 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Eternal damnation is done away with by the scripture I included here .. But if your god can change its mind once what's to say it won't change it again and go back to being cruel and vindictive? 15 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Perhaps you would like to say you do not believe in God, and so Atheism is not dead, and suggest the moderator close the topic? I don't belief in gods (yours or anyone else's) there for atheism is not dead. I'm quite happy to ask the mod to close this but, so far, it has been reasonably polite etc so it probably wouldn't be.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Zosimus said: It is rare to see a post so devoid of any semblance of fact. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world followed closely by Christianity. By 2050, the number of Muslims and Christians will be the same. By way of comparison, only 9 percent of the US population disbelieves in God and only 3 percent are atheists. Even then, 8 percent of atheists believe in God, and 2 percent of atheists are certain that God exists. There is no correlation between the rise of the scientific method and general rejection of God — and with good reason. Science is incapable of answering the questions that concern people. Questions such as whether abortion should be legal, whether gay marriage should be acceptable, or whether Honduran immigrants should be allowed to petition for asylum in the US simply cannot be answered by science. Sadly for you, a person who carries only a hammer sees everything as a nail to be pounded. 8% of atheists cannot believe in God because atheism is the disbelief in God .. so 2%of atheists cannot be certain that God exists. a·the·ist /ˈāTHēəst/ noun a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. You are right though that scientific method has no general relationship with the rejection of God because I am a person who believes that science not only shows the existence of God but proves, for instance, that the beginning and the end of this universe are as described in the bible.
Strange Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 31 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Your pride tells you that you know so much that the other ideas are silly. That's not pride. It is based on verifiable facts.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Strange said: But if your god can change its mind once what's to say it won't change it again and go back to being cruel and vindictive? I don't belief in gods (yours or anyone else's) there for atheism is not dead. I'm quite happy to ask the mod to close this but, so far, it has been reasonably polite etc so it probably wouldn't be. The beginning and the end has been written, there will be no revisions. But God was never cruel, he was merely a judge with authority and responsibility. 'And God said to Noah, the earth was filled with violence through man ... and I will destroy them.' Drowning is far more merciful than the firebombings carried out for the sake of the English speaking empires in WW2 which were not judgments of God but greed of man. (Put up thy sword.) If you want cruelty, just look at the U.S. news concerning maniacs with guns.
mistermack Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 20 minutes ago, Zosimus said: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world followed closely by Christianity. By 2050, the number of Muslims and Christians will be the same. By way of comparison, only 9 percent of the US population disbelieves in God and only 3 percent are atheists. Even then, 8 percent of atheists believe in God, and 2 percent of atheists are certain that God exists. How many would be believers without being indoctrinated as little children? It's nothing to take pride in when it's the result of the abuse of immature minds.
coffeesippin Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Strange said: That's not pride. It is based on verifiable facts. Verifiable? Like the Big Bang, Black Holes, Dark Matter? Those are ideas still under examination necessary for lack of evidence. Do you believe in Black Holes or Black Stars or another variation? Dark Matter or Modified Gravity? Big Bang or cosmic seeding of quantum fluctuation? Outside of Consensus every idea is idiotic to the Consensus.
Strange Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Verifiable? Like the Big Bang, Black Holes, Dark Matter? Those are ideas still under examination necessary for lack of evidence. Do you believe in Black Holes or Black Stars or another variation? Dark Matter or Modified Gravity? Big Bang or cosmic seeding of quantum fluctuation? Outside of Consensus every idea is idiotic to the Consensus. START ANOTHER THREAD IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS THIS
studiot Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 23 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: Those things are not the topic of discussion. the death of Atheism is the topic. And you are wrong in your statement, religions are flourishing, whether that is good or bad is another question and would take months of discussion. Some of those old established denominations are approaching death, but that is not religion in general. Mythical beliefs have nothing to do with Atheism except truths to a believer are called myths by the unbeliever. If you fear eternal damnation, believe in Jesus, for he died for not only your sins but the sins of the whole world, as those old books in the bible say. How has this thread turned from a discussion about Aetheism, (which could be conducted without a single reference to Big G), to a discussion about Big G? And why all the preaching?
beecee Posted November 17, 2018 Posted November 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, Zosimus said: It is rare to see a post so devoid of any semblance of fact. No where near the facts that philosophical banter actually lacks. Quote Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world followed closely by Christianity. By 2050, the number of Muslims and Christians will be the same. By way of comparison, only 9 percent of the US population disbelieves in God and only 3 percent are atheists. Even then, 8 percent of atheists believe in God, and 2 percent of atheists are certain that God exists. Not sure if one can believe what you say, particularly as you have given no reputable references, still, as I said, convention actually holds true in my opinion, and many, probably the vast majority, adhere in name only...eg: How many christians go to church on a Sunday...afterall that is one of the ten commandments...how many christians continue to lie through their teeth? Quote There is no correlation between the rise of the scientific method and general rejection of God — and with good reason. Science is incapable of answering the questions that concern people. Of course there is....I for one, accept science and the scientific method because of the questions it has obviously answered, as well as the good it has done for mankind in general, despite your denial of those facts. Quote Questions such as whether abortion should be legal, whether gay marriage should be acceptable, or whether Honduran immigrants should be allowed to petition for asylum in the US simply cannot be answered by science. Those are not really scientific questions although at least in one case science does offer evidence in agreement. Quote Sadly for you, a person who carries only a hammer sees everything as a nail to be pounded. sadly for you, who is ignorant of the basics of science, you simply attempt to practise your philosophy on others. As I said, I don't hold to the terms atheists, agnostics, or theists, rather I follow the observations, experimental successes and sensibility of the scientific method in rejecting that which is supernatural, paranormal as totally unscientific.
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