coffeesippin Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 I don`t have to believe in BB to believe in evolution. But I also don`t have to believe that man evolved from apes.
zapatos Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: I don`t have to believe in BB to believe in evolution. But I also don`t have to believe that man evolved from apes. Thanks for sharing.
beecee Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: I don`t have to believe in BB to believe in evolution. But I also don`t have to believe that man evolved from apes. You can believe what you like...Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny if you wish. But basically speaking, the theory of evolution is near certain and actually says we all, Humans, Apes etc, all evolved from the first primitive life form. The BB evolution of space and time is also overwhelmingly supported, so much so that the Catholic church sees no conflict or objection in accepting both. So yes, one probably could believe in the BB, the evolution of life and some deity or other that was the cause of the BB. This sthough is simply installing the old god of the gaps scenario, while science works objectively on how and why the BB banged, and any empirical evidence to indicate the why and how.. Edited November 20, 2018 by beecee
coffeesippin Posted November 20, 2018 Author Posted November 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, beecee said: You can believe what you like...Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny if you wish. But basically speaking the theory of evolution is near certain and actually says we all Humans, Apes etc, all evolved from the first life form. The BB evolution of space and time is also overwhelmingly supported, so much so that the Catholic church has sees no conflict or objection in accepting both. So yes, one probably could believe in the BB, the evolution of life and some deity or other that was the cause of the BB. This sthough is simply installing the old god of the gaps scenario, while science works objectively on how and why the BB banged. I suppose, Beecee, that you`ve heard of Pascual Jordan, one of the fathers of quantum mechanics. George Gamow`s autobiography recounts how a Jordan formula stopped Einstein in his tracks as he was crossing a street and several cars had to stop to avoid hitting Einstein. ``A star can be made from nothing if the star`s negative gravitational energy balances its positive rest mass energy.`` Singularity and BB are not needed, Jordan pointed to quantum fluctuations as the start of matter. He`s an intersting study as his name is difficult to find some say because he had been a member of the German Nazi Party(as were many or most Germans in his day) and after the war he was elected to the German parliament and advocated for Germany to develop a nuclear bomb, so he became unpopular, some say, for that. Or was it his formula that showed BB was not needed. Moderators here may say I`m delving into pseudo science with quantum fluctuations and furiously ban me but Jordan was and is considered one of the FOunders of quantum mechanics. I don`t know why this history should be condemned in these forums, but you will probably see the reaction. On 8/20/2018 at 10:29 AM, mistermack said: I can't believe that you can't see any difference. It's a very contrived stance. Would Christians or Muslims equate their religions with morality, ethics, and etiquette? Of course not. They profess it as a profound belief about the nature of existence, and "who" they owe their existence to. I'm not opposed to religion, if people choose to believe freely. I think I've made it clear that it's the compulsion, through indoctrination, that I'm arguing against. All Christians, Muslims and Jews equate their religions with morality, ethics and etiquette given them by Spirit and Word by the God they believe in .. the one God the Creator and Saviour. Many Christian Arabs, by the way, call God Allah, which is a form of an Old Testament name for God. I`m Christian but was given a Muslim name by a group of Muslim men I met in Canada because I emphasized the need for prayer in our modern day. They gave me the name Bilal, the officer of the mosque that calls to prayer. The difficulty comes in deciding what is moral. Consider the old question of is it more moral to die for your faith or to kill to protect your family. There are Muslim sects similar to Christian sects which will not use violence. In all those faiths a boy or young man or middle age man or older gets to a point in life where he either accepts or rejects the faith. It depends on the severity or mercy of the parents to decide what to do with the son (or daughter) if the faith is rejected. If you, Mistermack, believe it`s not safe for your child to cross the road without checking for traffic, you will ìndoctrinate` the child to stay alive. Same with those who believe their faith is a good thing .. they will teach their children the faith, and pray the children will enter the faith.
beecee Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 1 hour ago, coffeesippin said: ``A star can be made from nothing if the star`s negative gravitational energy balances its positive rest mass energy.`` Singularity and BB are not needed, Jordan pointed to quantum fluctuations as the start of matter. He`s an intersting study as his name is difficult to find some say because he had been a member of the German Nazi Party(as were many or most Germans in his day) and after the war he was elected to the German parliament and advocated for Germany to develop a nuclear bomb, so he became unpopular, some say, for that. Or was it his formula that showed BB was not needed. Moderators here may say I`m delving into pseudo science with quantum fluctuations and furiously ban me but Jordan was and is considered one of the FOunders of quantum mechanics. I don`t know why this history should be condemned in these forums, but you will probably see the reaction. Your "a star can be made from nothing if the star`s negative gravitational energy balances its positive rest mass energy." is actually in reference to the universe, not any single stellar object as far as I am aware.` The singularity as I have said is now accepted as being non existent for the reasons and manner I have described, while of course irrespective of any quantum fluctuations, which is speculated as how the universe arose from the quantum foam, it is still just speculation at this stage of the game. The BB is overwhelmingly supported due to the preponderance of evidence, as opposed to any other hypothetical. To say that his membership of the Nazi party and the fact that he was German, is the reason his hypothetical is not known, is simply indulging in rumour mongering and conspiracy nonsense, as is the now often critical appraisal of our Mods when anyone is asked or forced to tow the line and the rules of the site. Mainstream history is not condemned here, only pseudo nonsense, and/or alternative hypotheticals being pushed in the mainstream sections. I have discussed at times the great Freddy Hoyle and his alternative model, as a part of scientific history......If I chose though to add support for his discarded SS hypothetical, I would do it in the alternative/speculation section.
mistermack Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 4 hours ago, coffeesippin said: If you, Mistermack, believe it`s not safe for your child to cross the road without checking for traffic, you will ìndoctrinate` the child to stay alive. Same with those who believe their faith is a good thing .. they will teach their children the faith, and pray the children will enter the faith. You're a great one for stating the bleedin obvious. But the bleedin obvious DIFFERENCE is that I KNOW it's not safe to cross the road, I CAN SEE and HEAR the traffic. It's not a question of belief in heavenly cars that nobody has ever seen, heard, or been hit by. If I believed that god would keep them safe, I'd still be an LOONY to teach them to cross without looking. But according to your logic, that would be ok. You believe it, so teach it. The difference is between knowing and believing. Every single religious person with a brain had doubt. They may profess belief, they may never admit it out loud, but they know perfectly well that there's a real possibility that their religion is utter bollocks. But they still indoctrinate their kids, as if it's all true. That's why I call it child abuse. 3
iNow Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 7 hours ago, coffeesippin said: I don`t have to believe in BB to believe in evolution. But I also don`t have to believe that man evolved from apes. Just so we’re clear, humans ARE apes. I choose knowledge over ideological ignorance 1
coffeesippin Posted November 20, 2018 Author Posted November 20, 2018 1 hour ago, iNow said: Just so we’re clear, humans ARE apes. I choose knowledge over ideological ignorance That`s quite an insult to the apes, and one reason I don`t believe it. Apes don`t have the capacity to reach the level of degeneracy humans do. -3
Moontanman Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 1 hour ago, iNow said: Just so we’re clear, humans ARE apes. I choose knowledge over ideological ignorance Do you go with monophyletic or polyphyletic? It is interesting that Early Christian Scholars who were studying the natural world included chimps and orangutans as humans...
iNow Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 11 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: That`s quite an insult to the apes, and one reason I don`t believe it. Reality doesn’t care whether you believe it or not, nor do I 11 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Do you go with monophyletic or polyphyletic? I can see arguments in favor of both
coffeesippin Posted November 20, 2018 Author Posted November 20, 2018 Just now, iNow said: Reality doesn’t care whether you believe it or not, nor do I I guess we`ll have to agree to disagree. We hold to different realities. Each for our own good reasons. Someday we may see eye to eye, or may not, at least in this world in which there is so much to disagree on. -1
iNow Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, coffeesippin said: I guess we`ll have to agree to disagree. We hold to different realities. Each for our own good reasons. Someday we may see eye to eye, or may not, at least in this world in which there is so much to disagree on. This isn't an agree to disagree situation. One of us is correct. The other is not. You can deny this until you're blue in the face, but your opinions are not equivalent to my facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape Quote Humans are by far the most numerous of the ape species, in fact outnumbering all primates by a factor of several thousand to one.
swansont Posted November 20, 2018 Posted November 20, 2018 10 hours ago, coffeesippin said: I don`t have to believe in BB to believe in evolution. But I also don`t have to believe that man evolved from apes. ! Moderator Note That wasn't the subject of the OP. It was reconciling evolution (from the BB) and God, not the BB and the theory of evolution. Further, the thread was not the place to discuss your views on evolution.
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