Complex creatures that don't need oxygen (split from Mars likely to have enough oxygen to support life:)

[coffeesippin]

Perhaps off topic, but oxygen isn't need for animal life.  https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100416-oxygen-free-complex-animals-mediterranean/       I believe Mars has lots of life, including animals, oxygen using or not.   I believe that I saw in one of the first photos of the first Martian landers, perhaps the first lander,  a pair of animals like Armadillos, and their eyes were on the lander's camera as it moved.  I can't find the photo online though.   

[Strange]

13 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

Perhaps off topic, but oxygen isn't need for animal life.  https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100416-oxygen-free-complex-animals-mediterranean/   

That's interesting. Thanks (although the link didn't work properly for me)

14 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

I believe that I saw in one of the first photos of the first Martian landers, perhaps the first lander,  a pair of animals like Armadillos, and their eyes were on the lander's camera as it moved. 

Well bless your heart 

[coffeesippin]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

That's interesting. Thanks (although the link didn't work properly for me)

Well bless your heart 

The link is slow to come up for sure, but it came fully when it came.   Thanks for the blessing.  

[Strange]

10 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

Thanks for the blessing.  

It wasn't meant that way   

[coffeesippin]

18 minutes ago, Strange said:

It wasn't meant that way   

Well I certainly hope you didn't mean to hurt my heart?   

[Strange]

7 hours ago, coffeesippin said:

Well I certainly hope you didn't mean to hurt my heart?   

No. Just expressing scepticism at armadillos on Mars

[coffeesippin]

23 minutes ago, Strange said:

No. Just expressing scepticism at armadillos on Mars

They would be quite a surprise to most people that's for sure.  NASA identified them as rocks.  I wasn't surprised at seeing them at the time, as I'd read a lot of good science fiction, Jules Verne for instance,  I guess I was somewhat impressed at life's capability and the seeming power of chance to defy all odds, and everything I've learned since, including possibility of silicon life and life without oxygen, tells me why I wasn't surprised.   

[mistermack]

The Mars rovers should be finding some Armadillo shit pretty soon then. Beats me what they've been feeding on, they should be sending back pictures of that too pretty shortly. Insects and grubs from soft soil usually. So digging evidence should be around and about. 

[Strange]

17 minutes ago, coffeesippin said:

NASA identified them as rocks. 

Rocks!? On Mars? How did they think they could get away with that? They must think we are stupid!

[coffeesippin]

31 minutes ago, Strange said:

Rocks!? On Mars? How did they think they could get away with that? They must think we are stupid!

       Stupid?  No, most people think people except themselves are just uneducated and ignorant.   Rocks would get to Mars from asteroids, meteorites, that kind of thing, kind of like the theory of how earth's water got here.   And creatures like dust dung beetles on Mars might be rolling bits of dust together into rocks, decorating their personal flat expanse of desert with Stonehenge like structures that we won't recognize until we learn their geometry.   HAHAHAAHAHA.   Five a.m. is a silly time to be on the internet, Strange, but maybe a good time to write science fiction.    

Edited November 18, 2018 by coffeesippin
Hit a wrong button and posted too soon, then spelling.

[tinkerer]

Lots of "Poppy-cock" in this one!

[coffeesippin]

On 11/18/2018 at 4:32 AM, mistermack said:

The Mars rovers should be finding some Armadillo shit pretty soon then. Beats me what they've been feeding on, they should be sending back pictures of that too pretty shortly. Insects and grubs from soft soil usually. So digging evidence should be around and about. 

I don't know why all the skepticism .. even on earth Armadillos are found in very few places.  "There are no armadillos living in Australia. ... There are twenty species of armadillos; of these, only one lives in the United States (despite the great expanses of desert in the U.S. and even in Canada. The nine-banded armadillo can be found in the deserts of the Southwest U.S.""  Landers on Mars have traveled only how far on the planet's surace?  How limited is their search?  Like animals on earth if a Martian creature saw a rover moving about it would certainly make itself difficult to find.  Martian environments vary almost as greatly on Mars as do earth's environments, with oceans beneath the sand, and water seeping down the faces of steep surfaces.  Many of earth's creatures spend entire seasons hidden, from Polar Bears to turtles.  Life in the depths of our oceans is still just beginning to be explored.  Species are still being found in our jungles.  Skepticism is okay .. but we've only overturned a rock or two on Mars, and some of us think we know all that there is to be found.

[CharonY]

!

Moderator Note

Would be good if folks stick to the topic of multicellular organisms that can survive anaerobically (which, btw. are typically not really complex, though it may be a mattter of definition).

 

[mistermack]

There may be a bit of oxygen in the Mars atmosphere, and CO2 as well. But there's plenty lacking in life support. Warmth is the first to come to mind. The AVERAGE temperature on Mars is colder than the average winter temperature at the South Pole. And you won't find large life forms thriving there. In fact Mars is far more hostile than Antarctica in winter, because it doesn't have weather blowing in from milder climes. 

It also gets about half the sunlight, but far more harmful radiation, like cosmic rays and solar wind, because it doesn't have an equivalent to the Earth's magnetic field. or thick atmosphere. And there are no oceans beneath the sand. There's ice, lots of it, but no liquid oceans.

The chances of big animals that don't need oxygen or warmth existing on Mars are near enough zero.

[coffeesippin]

1 hour ago, mistermack said:

There may be a bit of oxygen in the Mars atmosphere, and CO2 as well. But there's plenty lacking in life support. Warmth is the first to come to mind. The AVERAGE temperature on Mars is colder than the average winter temperature at the South Pole. And you won't find large life forms thriving there. In fact Mars is far more hostile than Antarctica in winter, because it doesn't have weather blowing in from milder climes. 

It also gets about half the sunlight, but far more harmful radiation, like cosmic rays and solar wind, because it doesn't have an equivalent to the Earth's magnetic field. or thick atmosphere. And there are no oceans beneath the sand. There's ice, lots of it, but no liquid oceans.

The chances of big animals that don't need oxygen or warmth existing on Mars are near enough zero.

"Differing in situ values have been reported for the average temperature on Mars, with a common value being −63 °C (210 K; −81 °F). Surface temperatures may reach a high of about 20 °C (293 K; 68 °F) at noon, at the equator, and a low of about −153 °C (120 K; −243 °F) at the poles."   

68F is PLENTY warm.  There is also plenty of water beneath the surface. Oxygen can be taken from water as fish do here on earth.  Hibernation is one way creatures survive 'killer' temperatures on earth, why not on Mars?  How where the 'blueberries' on Mars formed?  Ever seen rabbit poop?

Silicon life forms would defend against radiation.  https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/silicon-based-life-may-be-more-just-science-fiction-n748266  

What is easily possible regarding life in extreme environments:   "During Antarctica’s winter – a frigid night four months long – male Emperor Penguins huddle by the hundreds in the snow. The male penguins guard the eggs and keep them warm. Each male penguin puts his egg on his feet. He covers it with a fold of skin. In this way, he keeps it warm at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit (38 degrees Celsius) while the outside temperatures can drop well below -30 degrees F (?35 degrees" C).  https://earthsky.org/earth/male-penguin-eggs    These are warm blooded mammals flourishing in those temperatures.

Life below freezing:    Easy:  "Antarctic fish have antifreeze blood, but it might fill them with ice crystals over time. In the icy waters of the Antarctic, most of the native fish have special proteins in their blood that act like antifreeze. The proteins bind to ice crystals, keeping them small to prevent the formation of fish popsicles."   https://www.google.ca/search?q=antifreeze+in+fish&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA807CA807&oq=antifreeze+in+fish&aqs=chrome..69i57.7722j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Life's possibilities seem endless.  What size is big?  A dog?  A Blue Whale?  

Edited November 22, 2018 by coffeesippin
missed a url

[Itoero]

On ‎18‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:21 AM, coffeesippin said:

Perhaps off topic, but oxygen isn't need for animal life.  https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100416-oxygen-free-complex-animals-mediterranean/       I believe Mars has lots of life, including animals, oxygen using or not.   I believe that I saw in one of the first photos of the first Martian landers, perhaps the first lander,  a pair of animals like Armadillos, and their eyes were on the lander's camera as it moved.  I can't find the photo online though.   

This life still evolved from oxygen-life.

[swansont]

Since the source of our plentiful oxygen is water-based photosynthesis, there must have been anaerobic life that preceded aerobic life.

[Itoero]

Are there oxygen-free zones in the Mediterranean? (

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Since the source of our plentiful oxygen is water-based photosynthesis, there must have been anaerobic life that preceded aerobic life.

True, but according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_life there was only single-celled life before atmospheric oxygen appeared. It seems atmospheric oxygen is necessary to form complex life. Perhaps water-based photosynthesis can't form complex life due to water pressure. Or maybe complex life can be created under water, but a lot slower. Life that forms under water needs to be strong enough to deal with water pressure. The life on land could develop faster.

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Itoero

[swansont]

19 minutes ago, Itoero said:

Are there oxygen-free zones in the Mediterranean? (

True, but according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_life there was only single-celled life before atmospheric oxygen appeared. It seems atmospheric oxygen is necessary to form complex life. Perhaps water-based photosynthesis can't form complex life due to water pressure. Or maybe complex life can be created under water, but a lot slower. Life that forms under water needs to be strong enough to deal with water pressure.

Oxygen is basically a poison to anaerobic life (oxidation tends to be disruptive), but it's a stretch to claim that atmospheric oxygen is necessary to form complex life. The aerobic life that developed in our history won the evolutionary battle, but it's not a given that this would happen under other circumstances.

This link says that early bacteria used version of photosynthesis that used hydrogen sulphide, but that ran out. But what if hydrogen sulphide hadn't been in relatively short supply? I don't know if we know enough to be able to predict what would happen under sufficiently different conditions.

http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~townsend/static.php?ref=diploma-4

 

 

[CharonY]

There are some inherent energetic challenges with anaerobic respiration, which is why aerobic respiration ultimately won out. Most likely, even if oxygen was never introduced, there is a good chance that there is an upper limit in terms of complexity  that could have developed under those constraints. Where those limits are, I have no idea.

[Moontanman]

On 11/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, coffeesippin said:

"Differing in situ values have been reported for the average temperature on Mars, with a common value being −63 °C (210 K; −81 °F). Surface temperatures may reach a high of about 20 °C (293 K; 68 °F) at noon, at the equator, and a low of about −153 °C (120 K; −243 °F) at the poles."

 

This is true, I'm not sure why you mention it, the air pressure is far to low to allow liquid water at those temps. 

On 11/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, coffeesippin said:

68F is PLENTY warm.  There is also plenty of water beneath the surface. Oxygen can be taken from water as fish do here on earth.

 

No, this is not true, fish do not remove the oxygen from water, they absorb oxygen that is dissolved in the water, big difference... 

On 11/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, coffeesippin said:

 

  Hibernation is one way creatures survive 'killer' temperatures on earth, why not on Mars?

 

I see no reason that, given life on Mars, such life might hibernate in some way...   

 

On 11/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, coffeesippin said:

 

  How where the 'blueberries' on Mars formed?  Ever seen rabbit poop?

 

Of course you ever eat smart pills? 

On 11/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, coffeesippin said:

 

Silicon life forms would defend against radiation.  https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/silicon-based-life-may-be-more-just-science-fiction-n748266

 

Silicon or silicone? 

On 11/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, coffeesippin said:

What is easily possible regarding life in extreme environments:   "During Antarctica’s winter – a frigid night four months long – male Emperor Penguins huddle by the hundreds in the snow. The male penguins guard the eggs and keep them warm. Each male penguin puts his egg on his feet. He covers it with a fold of skin. In this way, he keeps it warm at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit (38 degrees Celsius) while the outside temperatures can drop well below -30 degrees F (?35 degrees" C).  https://earthsky.org/earth/male-penguin-eggs    These are warm blooded mammals flourishing in those temperatures.

 

Yes, they also breath oxygen and burn their food chemically to maintain that warmth, something that is totally lacking on Mars. 

On 11/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, coffeesippin said:

Life below freezing:    Easy:  "Antarctic fish have antifreeze blood, but it might fill them with ice crystals over time. In the icy waters of the Antarctic, most of the native fish have special proteins in their blood that act like antifreeze. The proteins bind to ice crystals, keeping them small to prevent the formation of fish popsicles."   https://www.google.ca/search?q=antifreeze+in+fish&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA807CA807&oq=antifreeze+in+fish&aqs=chrome..69i57.7722j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Life's possibilities seem endless.  What size is big?  A dog?  A Blue Whale?  

I'm not sure what any of these things have to do with with life on mars or anaerobic life... I just wasted my time didn't I? Pass me them smart pills please! 

I would like to say that the late great Isaac Asimov suggested that life might metabolize Hydrogen on a planet with a hydrogen atmosphere and that such a planet might be more likely to have a very high pressure atmosphere and that in that case a "lung" full of air would contain many times the hydrogen atoms that a lung full of our air does oxygen at one bar. High pressure hydrogen could be used, according to Asimov, who speculated fats being used in place of proteins in a sun powered saturation unsaturation cycle... there are always possibilities... 

On the other hand on Mars the "dirt" contains rocket fuel or oxidizer, I don't remember which at the moment, but I can imagine animals who eat large amounts of the soil to fuel their metabolism, not sure what the food would be...   

[Itoero]

On ‎18‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:21 AM, coffeesippin said:

 I believe Mars has lots of life, including animals, oxygen using or not.

We might know this in a couple years: The first spacecraft to collect Martian rocks for eventual return to Earth will explore Jezero crater, NASA announced on 19 November. Jezero is a 45-kilometre-wide crater that was once filled with water, where Martian life could have thrived.

“Getting samples from this unique area will revolutionize how we think about Mars and its ability to harbour life,” says Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA’s associate administrator for science, who chose Jezero over three other finalists.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07472-0