Moms and kids tear gassed at southern US border

[iNow]

We’ve now weaponized more than just xenophobic rhetoric. Migrants were tear gassed yesterday for approaching the US to request asylum (one threw a rock).

The canisters were shot into the crowd and landing beside (sometimes even striking) kids less than 5, even those with no intention of crossing illegally  

Disappointing, saddening, and infuriating, yet unsurprising. 

Long term effects? Is US/Mexico border the new Israel/Palestine? Will we ever get passed the damage this is doing to our reputation and credibility?

[StringJunky]

They are not trying to go through the front door though, are they? The border did get stormed.

[iNow]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

They are not trying to go through the front door though, are they? The border did get stormed.

Yes and no. The border in question is one of the busiest. 100,000 people crossing daily. Well, it got locked to everyone, even regular crossers who do so often and legally. The caravan was a small part of this group. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/26/these-children-are-barefoot-diapers-choking-tear-gas

Quote

Trump officials said that authorities had to respond with force after hundreds of migrants rushed the border near Tijuana on Sunday, some of them throwing “projectiles” at Customs and Border Protection personnel.

The chaos erupted Sunday around the bustling San Ysidro border crossing, which Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said was closed “to ensure public safety in response to large numbers of migrants seeking to enter the U.S. illegally.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-closes-major-crossing-as-caravan-migrants-mass-at-border-in-mexico/2018/11/25/f94aabe0-f0ea-11e8-99c2-cfca6fcf610c_story.html?utm_term=.852f13a3a9a7

Quote

U.S. authorities closed off the busiest port of entry along the U.S. border with Mexico on Sunday and fired tear gas at members of a Central American migrant caravan who had rushed the fencing that separates the countries. 

Although the number of people at the border was relatively small, the unrest — with migrants attempting to climb fences and run through car lanes to reach the United States, and scenes of mothers and children choking on tear gas — represented a serious escalation of the crisis.

What began Sunday morning as a migrant protest of the slow pace of the U.S. asylum claims process devolved into a chaotic scramble in which hundreds made their way to the border hoping to cross onto U.S. soil. To block that from happening, and as some threw rocks and bottles, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers took the rare step of firing tear gas into Mexico as well as closing all legal vehicle and foot traffic to the San Ysidro border crossing, which U.S. officials say normally has about 100,000 visitors per day.

 

[zapatos]

To me it feels as if this is being mishandled by the US. Whether we allow the immigrants in or not, we should be able to set the tone and ensure the interactions at the border happen as pleasantly and professionally as possible. I believe if we start with a bit of empathy instead of hostility this could all go much better. Meet them at the gate, give them some food and water, perhaps a shower and a place to rest, then either let them in or turn them away. We can afford to show some kindness to people who have next to nothing.

Edited November 26, 2018 by zapatos

[iNow]

I just wish all this Making America Great Again stuff didn't make me feel so horribly about what's happening to the America I know.

[CharonY]

20 minutes ago, zapatos said:

To me it feels as if this is being mishandled by the US. Whether we allow the immigrants in or not, we should be able to set the tone and ensure the interactions at the border happen as pleasantly and professionally as possible. I believe if we start with a bit of empathy instead of hostility this could all go much better. Meet them at the gate, give them some food and water, perhaps a shower and a place to rest, then either let them in or turn them away. We can afford to be show some kindness to people who have next to nothing.

Could not agree more. In practical terms, if it was handled that way, in my mind it would be also be easier to reject asylum claims and minimize incidences such as these. Instead, militarizing the situation, both literally and metaphorically is only there to score cheap political points and raise tensions. 

Quote

I just wish all this Making America Great Again stuff didn't make me feel so horribly about what's happening to the America I know.

The cynical part in me thinks that the only thing that happened is that someone took off the sugar coating and revealed the barb wire beneath.

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The cynical part in me thinks that the only thing that happened is that someone took off the sugar coating and revealed the barb wire beneath.

1

I'm not that cynical, I hope...

[iNow]

20 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The cynical part in me thinks that the only thing that happened is that someone took off the sugar coating and revealed the barb wire beneath.

It certainly has always been there, but to your point was perhaps just quieter. My concern is the ripples this produces. Yes, there are always waves and ripples in the pond... but dropping rocks makes them worse.

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

My concern is the ripples this produces. Yes, there are always waves and ripples in the pond... but dropping rocks makes them worse.

My concern is related, it could lead to the normalization of the new state and then things go further from there...

[iNow]

6 minutes ago, CharonY said:

My concern is related, it could lead to the normalization of the new state and then things go further from there...

A bit like a shifting Overton Window, but for racism. Ugh...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

[CharonY]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

A bit like a shifting Overton Window, but for racism. Ugh...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Yes, precisely. Thanks for the link, I thought there was a concept for it, but forgot what it was called. As a side note, a while back I saw an interesting set of polls regarding racism in the USA all the way back to the 40s or earlier, I think. The fascinating bit was that throughout all that time, the majority of the public was clearly opposed to racism. But considering that the poll went back to the Jim Crow era, it just shows that what has actually changed is what is considered racist. So there is a double layer in that discourse.

[StringJunky]

47 minutes ago, CharonY said:

The cynical part in me thinks that the only thing that happened is that someone took off the sugar coating and revealed the barb wire beneath.

Yes, this is the other part of America we are seeing now.

[iNow]

Instead of firing tear gas, we should’ve sent more immigration lawyers and judges to the border to process asylum requests. 

Part of the reason there are so many people at the border (and have been even BEFORE the caravan arrived) is because the administration has been dragging its feet and refusing to process valid legal claims. 

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Instead of firing tear gas, we should’ve sent more immigration lawyers and judges to the border to process asylum requests. 

Part of the reason there are so many people at the border (and have been even BEFORE the caravan arrived) is because the administration has been dragging its feet and refusing to process valid legal claims. 

He and his acolytes don't want them.. 

[Raider5678]

13 hours ago, iNow said:

Migrants were tear gassed yesterday for approaching the US to request asylum (one threw a rock).

According to your links they were trying to jump fences, rush past the border security, etc. 

There is a difference between requesting asylum and rushing the border and crossing it.

For example, there is a difference between me knocking on your front door, and me jumping through an open window into your house. 

22 minutes ago, iNow said:

Instead of firing tear gas, we should’ve sent more immigration lawyers and judges to the border to process asylum requests. 

 

I'm not sure how well a group of immigration lawyers and judges would have stopped a mob of immigrants climbing over fences, etc, either. 

23 minutes ago, iNow said:

Part of the reason there are so many people at the border (and have been even BEFORE the caravan arrived) is because the administration has been dragging its feet and refusing to process valid legal claims. 

I can agree with this. We should be drastically changing the way we handle immigration in terms of bureaucracy. 

However, I still maintain the position, that in this situation, they shouldn't have attempted to rush the border. 

12 hours ago, zapatos said:

Meet them at the gate, give them some food and water, perhaps a shower and a place to rest, then either let them in or turn them away.

We should give them food and water, however, the logistical concerns of getting hundreds of thousands of immigrants showers and a place to rest on a daily basis are a bit concerning.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

I can agree with this. We should be drastically changing the way we handle immigration in terms of bureaucracy. 

I like it when we agree. Perhaps,we could start by sending more immigration lawyers and judges to the border to help clear the backlog.

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

I like it when we agree. Perhaps,we could start by sending more immigration lawyers and judges to the border to help clear the backlog.

There is a problem with that idea, however. The legal process immigrants face in those types of trials are often extremely biased. Often hundreds of people can be tried at the same time in less than 3 minutes, and I highly suspect that's not exactly a fair process.

Edit: Tried and trials are probably not the correct words. But there is some kind of sentencing procedure they go through to be admitted into the U.S. that I am referencing.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Raider5678

[iNow]

5 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

they shouldn't have attempted to rush the border. 

Again, we agree here. It’s critical, however, for us to acknowledge that “THEY” didn’t rush the border. A tiny subset of idiots did... just like a tiny subset of idiots on our side chose to fire tear gas at diapered children. 

‘Proportional response requirements were not IMO followed. 

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Tried and trials are probably not the correct words. But there is some kind of sentencing procedure they go through to be admitted into the U.S. that I am referencing.

Step 1: Arrive within the US, whether at an official crossing or not (note the OR qualifier) > https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/affirmative-asylum-process

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

Again, we agree here. It’s critical, however, for us to acknowledge that “THEY” didn’t rush the border. A tiny subset of idiots did... just like a tiny subset of idiots on our side chose to fire tear gas at diapered children. 

 

Well, I'd be wary of saying it wasn't a proportional response. Rubber bullets can be lethal, and when shooting towards a crowd that could be incredibly dangerous, especially because of the diapered children. 

If they tried to catch them on foot there is a huge chance many of them would have gotten through, and that could have easily escalated the situation even further(I.E. people see some people make it past the guards, they decide to do the same thing, creates a loop, etc, etc, etc.)

From my understanding as well, it was a long perimeter, so it wasn't like there was a narrow place to guard. A fence is not hard to climb, and in order to keep people from climbing the fence, they had to get people away from the fence, which involved firing tear gas at them. 

 

Essentially, there were two options that I can see. Either fire tear gas, or let a large number of immigrants through. And if a large number of immigrants got through, I can guarantee you the POTUS would have overseen a couple of job terminations.

[iNow]

29 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Essentially, there were two options that I can see. Either fire tear gas, or let a large number of immigrants through.

There are billions of options in between. Comments like this suggest a profound failure of imagination and experience, not some fundamental truth.

Really, much of this is about which visual we choose to look at. 

THIS: 

 

OR THIS:

 

 

I, for one, feel that as a country of nearly 350 million people and more wealth than the planet has EVER seen, we CAN find a way to include these folks within the population of “us.”

I see neighbors and friends and colleagues in these photos and I don’t wet my pants when a mommy fleeing violence with her babies walks cross an arbitrary line looking to work hard and contribute, but YMMV

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by iNow

[Ten oz]

It is not illegal to seek asylum. This BS where people argue they just want legal immigration plainly dishonest when everything possible is done to block legal means. What's happening here is plain to see. The administration is working to subvert law while claiming to just want law upheld. Anyone who actually cares about the process and just want to see assylum seekers follow it should be calling for extra immigration services admin personnel to be sent to the border. That is the quickest way to ensure everyone is doing things the legal way.

An analogy for closing the border via armed guard and then carrying on about crossing legally is to raise a draw bridge and then tell cars to only use the raised bridge safely. It literally can't be done. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

We should give them food and water, however, the logistical concerns of getting hundreds of thousands of immigrants showers and a place to rest on a daily basis are a bit concerning.

Logistics involved in food and water too. You're right. Screw them. Not our problem.

[Raider5678]

7 hours ago, zapatos said:

Logistics involved in food and water too. You're right. Screw them. Not our problem.

Yes. Because the logistics of handing out food and water is the same as setting up and maintaining housing the equivalent of a small city. I did not say screw them, I did not even say we shouldn't do it, I simply said the logistics of trying to do it concern me. 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Raider5678

[Ten oz]

Quote

 

8 U.S. Code § 1158 - Asylum

Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158

 

U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP)  has an annual budget of $14.2 billion ,  U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has an annual budget $8.3 billion, and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has $3.2 billion a year.  Asylum seeking is legal. With a combined budget of $25.7 billion dollars a year the onus to have the logistics for asylum seekers figured out is on CBP , ICE, USCIS, and the Political oversight officials. The onus is not on the asylum seekers. Our laws on the matter are not new. Politicians have the ability to change law and on this matter have chosen not to. A deal on immigration reform has been discussed for years but no action ever followed. It is not the fault of the asylum seekers. We know what our laws are and our agencies have $25.7 billion a year to manage the logistics of enforcing our laws. So we need to follow our laws and stop using desperate families and political props. 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, Raider5678 said:

Yes. Because the logistics of handing out food and water is the same as setting up and maintaining housing the equivalent of a small city. I did not say screw them, I did not even say we shouldn't do it, I simply said the logistics of trying to do it concern me. 

 

What exactly about the logistics concerns you? That we won't be able to figure out how much water per day? Or how to transport tents to the border? Or where they will get that many towels and bars of soap? Possibly it is determining which roads the supply trucks should take on the way to the border. We mobilized Desert Storm from Illinois. I suspect we could arrange showers and cots. Hell, church groups in Mexico provided showers and even CLOTHES to the migrants. Citing "logistic concerns" feels like someone searching for problems rather than solutions. Especially given that we are discussing humanitarian efforts, violence, and international relations.