Flying saucer. Picture, project of a spacecraft

[MasterOgon]

Principle, scheme, images of a flying saucer. Reusable spaceship of the future. Spaceship with a solar sail.

http://new-original-style.com.ua/pages/article/flying/saucer_en.htm

[CharonY]

!

Moderator Note

Please provide more details on your project here an explain some of the mechanisms you propose (rather than directing to a different website). Going from the image it does seem to be more speculative to me than an actual working project, but feel free to correct me.

 

[MasterOgon]

PRINCIPLE OF FLYING SAUCER.

Flying saucer is a reusable air / underwater / spacecraft. The motor used on it is a movable discoid sail, driven by high-frequency electromagnetic inertial propulsion. With the help of the wing, the inertial propulsion perceives the resistance of the environment and the apparatus comes in forward motion. Thus, the flying saucer uses the principle of movement of birds, fish and other species of creatures moving in a homogeneous environment. This principle is possible in virtually any environment capable of providing resistance in which waves can be created and reflected. This allows you to effectively use the resistance of the environment due to its inertness.

For example, an airplane for the most part simply overcomes air resistance, leaving behind it an air whirlwind that lasts some time by inertia. The vortex contains energy that is not used at all. A bird creating a whirlwind with a wing wave receives back some of the energy spent on it in the form of wind, which pushes it. Thus, the bird is more efficient than the aircraft. But it is technically difficult to create a powerful and fast apparatus in the form of a bird or fish. Such designs have a large number of moving parts that do not withstand the load on friction and vibration, if you install a powerful engine on them. Unlike the ornithopter wing, the wing of the flying saucer will be able to vibrate with high frequency and low amplitude, like the membrane of an acoustic speaker. This can be achieved through the use in the design of the electromagnetic drive of the wing. The suspension of the wing on a magnetic cushion will allow you to realize greater power and frequency of oscillation with a low mechanical load.

The work of the wing in the air or water can be described as follows. The wing makes a fast ascending impulse, as a result of which a shock wave is formed above it, and the flying saucer begins to be drawn into the region of reduced pressure formed behind it. An annular vortex is formed under the wing, which follows it by inertia. Then the wing begins to make a reverse movement downward at low speed, and the flying saucer pushes off from the whirlwind, which catches up with it, carrying it upwards.

[swansont]

21 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

PRINCIPLE OF FLYING SAUCER.

Flying saucer is a reusable air / underwater / spacecraft. The motor used on it is a movable discoid sail, driven by high-frequency electromagnetic inertial propulsion. With the help of the wing, the inertial propulsion perceives the resistance of the environment and the apparatus comes in forward motion. Thus, the flying saucer uses the principle of movement of birds, fish and other species of creatures moving in a homogeneous environment. This principle is possible in virtually any environment capable of providing resistance in which waves can be created and reflected. This allows you to effectively use the resistance of the environment due to its inertness.

That sounds like a bunch of word salad.

"high-frequency electromagnetic inertial propulsion" is just radiation pressure, which is incredibly weak. F = P/c

You need to be emitting 300 MW to give you 1 N of thrust.

21 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

 The work of the wing in the air or water can be described as follows. The wing makes a fast ascending impulse, as a result of which a shock wave is formed above it, and the flying saucer begins to be drawn into the region of reduced pressure formed behind it. An annular vortex is formed under the wing, which follows it by inertia. Then the wing begins to make a reverse movement downward at low speed, and the flying saucer pushes off from the whirlwind, which catches up with it, carrying it upwards.

How does that work in the vacuum of space, where there is essentially no resistance to movement?

[Ghideon]

Hello @MasterOgon.

Is something missing from the description? I've highlighted two statements; they seem to contradict each other? (emphasis by me)

27 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

Flying saucer is a reusable air / underwater / spacecraft.

 

27 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

Thus, the flying saucer uses the principle of movement of birds, fish and other species of creatures moving in a homogeneous environment. This principle is possible in virtually any environment capable of providing resistance in which waves can be created and reflected. This allows you to effectively use the resistance of the environment due to its inertness.

How does this work in the vacuum of space?

Edited November 27, 2018 by Ghideon
X-posted with swansont

[beecee]

38 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

How does this work in the vacuum of space?

As an old Star Trek fan, I prefer the more mundane warp drive technology

[MasterOgon]

40 minutes ago, swansont said:

That sounds like a bunch of word salad.

"high-frequency electromagnetic inertial propulsion" is just radiation pressure, which is incredibly weak. F = P/c

You need to be emitting 300 MW to give you 1 N of thrust.

How does that work in the vacuum of space, where there is essentially no resistance to movement?

Thank. And how to write: an engine that creates an impulse of inertia?

The space environment is not a vacuum. There is a photo and electric sail to perceive the resistance of the space environment.

41 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Hello @MasterOgon.

Is something missing from the description? I've highlighted two statements; they seem to contradict each other? (emphasis by me)

 

How does this work in the vacuum of space?

 

[Ghideon]

2 hours ago, MasterOgon said:

There is a photo and electric sail to perceive the resistance of the space environment.

Thanks, I don't think that was obvious from your description above. 

3 hours ago, MasterOgon said:

The work of the wing in the air or water can be described as follows. The wing makes a fast ascending impulse, as a result of which a shock wave is formed above it, and the flying saucer begins to be drawn into the region of reduced pressure formed behind it. An annular vortex is formed under the wing, which follows it by inertia. Then the wing begins to make a reverse movement downward at low speed, and the flying saucer pushes off from the whirlwind, which catches up with it, carrying it upwards.

The saucer does not look like a fish or a bird to me, maybe a jellyfish is a more useful analogy? Can you describe the mechanism in more detail, preferably including some math? I fail to see how the saucer would be able to leave the ground.  

Edited November 27, 2018 by Ghideon
spelling

[quiet]

10 hours ago, MasterOgon said:

Principle, scheme, images of a flying saucer. Reusable spaceship of the future. Spaceship with a solar sail.

You seem like a well-informed person about flying saucers. What can you comment about the Nazi Bell?

Once, with a photographic program, I contracted the vertical measurement in the photo of the Nazi Bell. The result is the image of a flying saucer. Could the flying saucer be a flattened version of the bell? This question does not validate any affirmation regarding the success or failure of the Nazi attempt. It only refers to topologically identical geometric shapes, which only differ in the contraction or expansion of one of the measurements.

Edited November 28, 2018 by quiet

[MasterOgon]

5 hours ago, Ghideon said:

hanks, I don't think that was obvious from your description above. 

Under the picture link.

If you look at the bird from the front or the fish from above, there are similarities. Flying saucer, like a bird, makes a sharp movement of the wing up and slowly lowers the wing down. Having made a sharp movement of the wing up, the bird creates a whirlwind. Slowly lowering the wing, the bird detaches from it. It is drawn on the picture . If you observe a jellyfish, it makes more complex movements, but the meaning is the same. I can't mathematically confirm this because I am not an expert. On a simplified model, it looks like this:

https://youtu.be/uoFQ3g1VEUI

2 hours ago, quiet said:

You seem like a well-informed person about flying saucers. What can you comment about the Nazi Bell?

I don't know anything new about it. If  they use the principle I’m talking about, I don’t think that the Nazis were able to build such а flying saucer. I think the curved shape of a bell or a saucer makes sense to increase its effectiveness, but it can be flat.
The first flying saucer is an umbrella plane that jumped on the ground.

[swansont]

15 hours ago, MasterOgon said:

 The space environment is not a vacuum. There is a photo and electric sail to perceive the resistance of the space environment.

Space is a pretty good vacuum. Interstellar space is ~10^-17 torr. Atmosphere is ~760 torr. Roughly 20 orders of magnitude.

Even near Earth, in LEO, it's about 10^-9 torr. Or one trillionth of atmosphere.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Vacuum#Outer_space

 

 

[MasterOgon]

The inertial propulsion https://youtu.be/pcEdpb-rIX4?t=335 was considered by many to be antigravity, because during the experiments it seemed that it did not repel anything. In the end, it was even launched into space. And there it did not work.
The peculiarity of this engine is that it can repel almost everything that offers resistance. Therefore, if the solar wind resists, then the engine can push off from it. If you set a sail on it.
The disadvantage of this engine in the mechanical design, which does not allow to develop more power and be effective. But if you use electromagnets instead of mechanics, you can get a better result.

[DrP]

I thought saucers were for the ion lift type drives... maybe I'm wrong.

17 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

The inertial propulsion https://youtu.be/pcEdpb-rIX4?t=335 was considered by many to be antigravity,

What is the proposed drive mechanism again? - Surely not that thing in the vid, lol. It certainly isn't going to power a saucer to fly... and I am not sure WHO would consider that contraption in the vid an 'antigravity' device.

[swansont]

18 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

The inertial propulsion https://youtu.be/pcEdpb-rIX4?t=335 was considered by many to be antigravity, because during the experiments it seemed that it did not repel anything. In the end, it was even launched into space. And there it did not work.
The peculiarity of this engine is that it can repel almost everything that offers resistance. Therefore, if the solar wind resists, then the engine can push off from it. If you set a sail on it.
The disadvantage of this engine in the mechanical design, which does not allow to develop more power and be effective. But if you use electromagnets instead of mechanics, you can get a better result.

This being science, though, you should be able to quantify things. The solar wind is not very robust. If we look at the EM component, the solar irradiance near the earth is less than 1.4 kW/m^2.  You can double the force by having the radiation reflect, so effectively it's like ~3 kW, or one thousandth of the number I gave earlier. 1 mN of thrust per m^2 for a solar sail.

That's not very much to push against.

[Ghideon]

11 hours ago, MasterOgon said:

If you look at the bird from the front or the fish from above, there are similarities. Flying saucer, like a bird, makes a sharp movement of the wing up and slowly lowers the wing down. Having made a sharp movement of the wing up, the bird creates a whirlwind. Slowly lowering the wing, the bird detaches from it. It is drawn on the picture . If you observe a jellyfish, it makes more complex movements, but the meaning is the same. I can't mathematically confirm this because I am not an expert. On a simplified model, it looks like this:

Thanks for your answer. I do not quite understand how a the smooth and complex movement of a bird wing is comparable to a rigid* saucer. When the saucer makes a quick movement of the wing up, the force required to move the air above the saucer results in a force that presses the saucer towards the ground. 

11 hours ago, MasterOgon said:

The first flying saucer is an umbrella plane that jumped on the ground.

Maybe this is the one**:

How will the saucer you propose be able to behave differently than the car above? 

So far the discussion focus on movement through air, what is the purpose of using the failed idea above when more useful designs exist: 

32 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

The disadvantage of this engine in the mechanical design,

Another disadvantage is that it looks kind of uncomfortable to ride in the vehicle.

 

*) I assume that the saucer is rigid and not constructed like a jellyfish

**) Found a movie; first few seconds of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYhwLnIzSEY

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Ghideon
added video link

[MasterOgon]

7 minutes ago, DrP said:

I thought saucers were for the ion lift type drives... maybe I'm wrong.

What is the proposed drive mechanism again? - Surely not that thing in the vid, lol. It certainly isn't going to power a saucer to fly... and I am not sure WHO would consider that contraption in the vid an 'antigravity' device.

This mechanism does not create angravity. He twitches in one place. One way quickly and the other way slowly. Due to this, it pushes off like a spring from everything that gives it resistance.

10 minutes ago, swansont said:

This being science, though, you should be able to quantify things. The solar wind is not very robust. If we look at the EM component, the solar irradiance near the earth is less than 1.4 kW/m^2.  You can double the force by having the radiation reflect, so effectively it's like ~3 kW, or one thousandth of the number I gave earlier. 1 mN of thrust per m^2 for a solar sail.

That's not very much to push against.

I understand. But if it works then this is something.

[DrP]

Just now, MasterOgon said:

This mechanism does not create angravity

You don't say.

1 minute ago, MasterOgon said:

But if it works then this is something.

If what works?  -  I'm lost.  What is it's propulsion system?

[MasterOgon]

14 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Thanks for your answer. I do not quite understand how a the smooth and complex movement of a bird wing is comparable to a rigid* saucer. When the saucer makes a quick movement of the wing up, the force required to move the air above the saucer results in a force that presses the saucer towards the ground. 

Yes. But after that, when the saucer stops moving, the whirlwind that it created, by inertia, continues for some time and pushes the saucer. If the balloon, inflated with air, is pushed upward, then the airflow created by this movement will push it further for some time. This can be checked on a sheet of paper, a plastic bag, and anything.

17 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

How will the saucer you propose be able to behave differently than the car above? 

The car makes the same impulses up and down. And should create a shock wave up and smoothly lower the wing down

[DrP]

So how do you drive the saucer in the first place?

[MasterOgon]

11 minutes ago, DrP said:

15 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

his mechanism does not create angravity

You don't say.

Извините, не понял вопрос.

 

Here you can see how it works in the water. Powerful waves go forward and weak backwards.

7 minutes ago, DrP said:

So how do you drive the saucer in the first place?

As a universal vehicle. I can misunderstand the question.

[DrP]

3 minutes ago, MasterOgon said:

Извините, не понял вопрос.

It means that you were stating the obvious when you said it wouldn't produce antigravity and that your comment was superfluous. I was being sarcastic.

So how does this suppose to work in space? I think we will need to look to more modern and technologically superior ideas for propulsion through space.

I'm no expert though - Maybe I am wrong and this is the future of space travel. If it is then I am definitely missing something.

 

[MasterOgon]

10 minutes ago, DrP said:

It means that you were stating the obvious when you said it wouldn't produce antigravity and that your comment was superfluous. I was being sarcastic.

So how does this suppose to work in space? I think we will need to look to more modern and technologically superior ideas for propulsion through space.

I'm no expert though - Maybe I am wrong and this is the future of space travel. If it is then I am definitely missing something.

In

In the photo is the motor that I used in the experiment. If we place it in In the photo is the motor that I used in the experiment. If we place it in weightlessness and vacuum, it jerks in place around its center of mass.
If this jerking is resisted, it will be set in motion. In space, this resistance can be obtained by attaching a solar sail to the motor. he photo is the motor that I used in the experiment. If we place it in

Naturally, this is not the final version of the motor, in order to work in space. It only captures the essence.

Its advantage is that it can work in any environment that offers resistance. A saucer-shaped wing can play the role of a photon sail and an electronic sail antenna. This all together gives versatility - the ability to move in any environment using almost the same principle. With varying success, of course.

 

You can watch him as anti-gavitational when he jumps.)))

And here you can hear the acoustic waves that create lift.

Edited November 28, 2018 by MasterOgon

[swansont]

1 hour ago, MasterOgon said:

 I understand. But if it works then this is something.

Not good enough.

Your explanation of how it works tells us that it won't. Why should we expect this to do anything beyond the tiny effect that physics tells us is there?

[MasterOgon]

I did not say that the effect would be huge. It will be larger than that of an ordinary photon sail. It needs to be improved for a long time.

 

[Ghideon]

First thing: Even if we do not at all agree on the results, experiments and builds are cool!

1 hour ago, MasterOgon said:

And here you can hear the acoustic waves that create lift.

I can hear the sound but I see no lift at all. I suppose someone off-camera throws the saucer? How does the results compare to a set of experiments without the engine running?

 

I missed this part previously:

2 hours ago, MasterOgon said:

The inertial propulsion https://youtu.be/pcEdpb-rIX4?t=335 was considered by many to be antigravity, because during the experiments it seemed that it did not repel anything. In the end, it was even launched into space. And there it did not work.

Your saucer uses inertial propulsion, and inertial propulsion has already ben sent to space and failed? How will your version work?