Neil DeGrasse Tyson Misconduct

[Ten oz]

Neil DeGrasse Tyson has been accused of sex misconduct by 3 women . Tyson denies any wrong doing.

I personally find Tyson's response troubling. In a social media post captioned with a photo of 2 faceless figures pointing at each other Tyson wrote of the damage which can be done to a reputation when one is accused, referenced the need for evidence, and questioned why anyone would believe him. Tyson is a very intelligent person. I think the image he used purposely invokes the spirit of he said vs she said to imply the whole situation is a nonstarter of sorts. Tyson further diminished his accusers voices by talking about the need for evidence. Then ends the post with what I consider to be a bit of sarcasm by asking why he as the accused should be believed. Questions designed to position himself as the real victim here. I am disappointed by his response. Has anyone been following this story?

I placed this in politics because Tyson referenced himself as a public servant and most of the other similar discussions regarding sexual misconduct have been political. 

[iNow]

I think there’s always room for improvement, but am not as troubled by his response as you, especially since he welcomes further investigation openly and apologized as well. 

[Alex_Krycek]

"Well, actually..."

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Neil DeGrasse Tyson has been accused of sex misconduct by 3 women . Tyson denies any wrong doing.

I personally find Tyson's response troubling. In a social media post captioned with a photo of 2 faceless figures pointing at each other Tyson wrote of the damage which can be done to a reputation when one is accused, referenced the need for evidence, and questioned why anyone would believe him. Tyson is a very intelligent person. I think the image he used purposely invokes the spirit of he said vs she said to imply the whole situation is a nonstarter of sorts. Tyson further diminished his accusers voices by talking about the need for evidence. Then ends the post with what I consider to be a bit of sarcasm by asking why he as the accused should be believed. Questions designed to position himself as the real victim here. I am disappointed by his response. Has anyone been following this story?

I placed this in politics because Tyson referenced himself as a public servant and most of the other similar discussions regarding sexual misconduct have been political. 

Assuming he is being 100% honest, how would you have liked him to respond to the allegations? What would you have done differently if you were in his shoes, or more exactly in the shoes of someone that is how he has described himself?

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Assuming he is being 100% honest, how would you have liked him to respond to the allegations? What would you have done differently if you were in his shoes, or more exactly in the shoes of someone that is how he has described himself?

You can believe an accusation without judging guilt one way or another until you've heard the evidence, right (judges do it every day)? In Tyson's case, it's like when someone proposes a new hypothesis. A good scientist listens to the abstract (the presenter believes they have the beginning of a new theory), then asks for the evidence that backs the hypothesis up. Even here we allow people to present their case in Speculations, and as long as they have supportive evidence, they're at least listened to. The aim is not to dismiss the claim out of hand, or demean it with tricks and spin. 

I agree with Ten oz, Tyson leapt to his own defense before acknowledging that a woman believes she was assaulted. If Tyson is being 100% honest (including intellectually), then he should feel more confident about refuting any evidence produced. In any case, it's dialogue that will solve this problem fairly, not kicking dirt over it to hide it.

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

You can believe an accusation without judging guilt one way or another until you've heard the evidence, right (judges do it every day)? In Tyson's case, it's like when someone proposes a new hypothesis. A good scientist listens to the abstract (the presenter believes they have the beginning of a new theory), then asks for the evidence that backs the hypothesis up. Even here we allow people to present their case in Speculations, and as long as they have supportive evidence, they're at least listened to. The aim is not to dismiss the claim out of hand, or demean it with tricks and spin. 

I agree with Ten oz, Tyson leapt to his own defense before acknowledging that a woman believes she was assaulted. If Tyson is being 100% honest (including intellectually), then he should feel more confident about refuting any evidence produced. In any case, it's dialogue that will solve this problem fairly, not kicking dirt over it to hide it.

I would describe this as suspending belief one way or another.

If the accusations are as described, I would consider two of the accusations as "none of my business" with the third much more serious one of drugging and raping being very concerning.

One seems at worst clumsy and bordering on a little creepy (the tattoo one)

One seems at worst an attempt at seduction that was rejected. Nothing illegal (his wife would have a right to be upset if true) other than if there was some attempt at coercion of a subordinate.

The third is in a different stratosphere. I certainly would not expect him to "acknowledge she believes this" as he did to some extent in the other two cases. 

[John Cuthber]

45 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

If Tyson is being 100% honest (including intellectually), then he should feel more confident about refuting any evidence produced.

The only plausible evidence will be the other person's word.

How could he refute that?

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Assuming he is being 100% honest, how would you have liked him to respond to the allegations? What would you have done differently if you were in his shoes, or more exactly in the shoes of someone that is how he has described himself?

Am I guilty or innocent while standing in Tyson's shoes? 

Countless guilt people have claimed innocence and some innocent people have even claimed to be guilty. Tyson is a very smart person. He understand that the only reason to say anything is for public relation. Nothing he says changes what did or did not happen. So his social media response was purely public relations. The media attention of his response is trending greater than the initial reports. I feel Tyson purposely sought to take control of the conversation. It is an aggressive move that diminishes the voices of his accusers. I would have preferred a more muted response, perhaps through a representative, where he stated his innocence while asking for the process to be respected. Instead he came out defensively swinging implying himself a victim. 

2 hours ago, iNow said:

I think there’s always room for improvement, but am not as troubled by his response as you, especially since he welcomes further investigation openly and apologized as well. 

Maybe I just think too highly of Tyson intellect. I read his response as manipulative. For example there are 3 unrelated accusers yet Tyson introduced He said She said iconography which frames the conversation as though it were just his word vs another. Rather is it his word vs the words of a few others. A nuanced difference I believe Tyson is intelligent enough to understand. Likewise there is no need for him to speak to his reputation and the possible damage of reputations following accusation ahead of an investigation. Doing so implies that his accusers are liars. To me his response was too aggressive. 

[StringJunky]

13 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Am I guilty or innocent while standing in Tyson's shoes? 

Countless guilt people have claimed innocence and some innocent people have even claimed to be guilty. Tyson is a very smart person. He understand that the only reason to say anything is for public relation. Nothing he says changes what did or did not happen. So his social media response was purely public relations. The media attention of his response is trending greater than the initial reports. I feel Tyson purposely sought to take control of the conversation. It is an aggressive move that diminishes the voices of his accusers. I would have preferred a more muted response, perhaps through a representative, where he stated his innocence while asking for the process to be respected. Instead he came out defensively swinging implying himself a victim. 

Maybe I just think too highly of Tyson intellect. I read his response as manipulative. For example there are 3 unrelated accusers yet Tyson introduced He said She said iconography which frames the conversation as though it were just his word vs another. Rather is it his word vs the words of a few others. A nuanced difference I believe Tyson is intelligent enough to understand. Likewise there is no need for him to speak to his reputation and the possible damage of reputations following accusation ahead of an investigation. Doing so implies that his accusers are liars. To me his response was too aggressive. 

If somebody accuses of you of something, to which you think  you are not guilty, they are going to get the sharp end of your tongue; especially on a subject the media is sensitized to and will make a meal of, no matter how tenuous. I'd tell her where to go in no uncertain terms.

Edited December 2, 2018 by StringJunky

[J.C.MacSwell]

19 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Am I guilty or innocent while standing in Tyson's shoes? 

Countless guilt people have claimed innocence and some innocent people have even claimed to be guilty. Tyson is a very smart person. He understand that the only reason to say anything is for public relation. Nothing he says changes what did or did not happen. So his social media response was purely public relations. The media attention of his response is trending greater than the initial reports. I feel Tyson purposely sought to take control of the conversation. It is an aggressive move that diminishes the voices of his accusers. I would have preferred a more muted response, perhaps through a representative, where he stated his innocence while asking for the process to be respected. Instead he came out defensively swinging implying himself a victim. 

I asked for how you would respond if you were innocent. And I think you answered it. 

Thank you. 

So you admit that this theoretically more media savvy yet honest Tyson would be looked upon much more favourably than you would be, with your equally honest, but in your opinion more principled, response? 

Edited December 2, 2018 by J.C.MacSwell

[beecee]

44 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

The only plausible evidence will be the other person's word.

How could he refute that?

Let me say that firstly, as one who enjoys Neil De-Degrasse Tyson as an educator presenter second only to the great Carl Sagan, IF, IF he is guilty, he deserves whatever punishment that the system where he resides gives him. I totally resent any actions by any male, forcing himself on a woman.

By the same token, if Tyson or anyone else is accused of something unjustly, then I certainly know that if it was me, I would be instinctively outraged and would probably react in the same way.

In saying all that. let me give a just recently publicised case where I live of a   woman seen on CCTV repeatedly punching herself in a lift before reporting to the Police that her  husband or boyfriend [not sure on that] had assaulted her.

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by beecee

[Ten oz]

21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

If somebody accuses of you of something, to which you think  you are not guilty, they are going to get the sharp end of your tongue; especially on a subject the media is sensitized to and will make a meal of, no matter how tenuous. I'd tell her where to go in no uncertain terms.

Do you know for a fact Tyson thinks he is not guilty?

Whether Tyson is not guilty, remembers events differently, or is guilty I think "the stick" is a bad approach. No amount of of stick proves one is innocent or undoes an accusation. 

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Do you know for a fact Tyson thinks he is not guilty?

Whether Tyson is not guilty, remembers events differently, or is guilty I think "the stick" is a bad approach. No amount of of stick proves one is innocent or undoes an accusation. 

I'm presuming he thinks he's not guilty, just as much as you seem to assume he is just because she said so. The evidence shall prevail.

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Do you know for a fact Tyson thinks he is not guilty?

Whether Tyson is not guilty, remembers events differently, or is guilty I think "the stick" is a bad approach. No amount of of stick proves one is innocent or undoes an accusation. 

I generally don't make black and white (not referring to race) statements, but if he intentionally drugged and raped her I say he remembers it. He is clearly not someone with mental issues of the kind that would lend itself to that.

If you are referring to the other two cases, I don't really care, to be honest. (assuming the basics we know at this time)

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I'm presuming he thinks he's not guilty, just as much as you seem to assume he is just because she said so. The evidence shall prevail.

I have no said he was guilty. I have no way of knowing if if he is guilty. Neither of us can know that at this point. 

[StringJunky]

5 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I have no said he was guilty. I have no way of knowing if if he is guilty. Neither of us can know that at this point. 

Here's what he said on FB. Seems to be taking it appropriately:

Quote

 “For a variety of reasons, most justified, some unjustified, men accused of sexual impropriety in today’s ‘me-too’ climate are presumed to be guilty by the court of public opinion. Emotions bypass due process, people choose sides, and the social media wars begin.

“In any claim, evidence matters. Evidence always matters. But what happens when it’s just one person’s word against another’s, and the stories don’t agree? That’s when people tend to pass judgment on who is more credible than whom. And that’s when an impartial investigation can best serve the truth – and would have my full cooperation to do so.

“I’ve recently been publically accused of sexual misconduct. These accusations have received a fair amount of press in the past 48 hours, unaccompanied by my reactions. In many cases, it’s not the media’s fault. I declined comment on the grounds that serious accusations should not be adjudicated in the press. But clearly I cannot continue to stay silent.”

 

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I generally don't make black and white (not referring to race) statements, but if he intentionally drugged and raped her I say he remembers it. He is clearly not someone with mental issues of the kind that would lend itself to that.

If you are referring to the other two cases, I don't really care, to be honest. (assuming the basics we know at this time)

I was just laying out the various scenarios. I don't claim to know what Tyson think or remembers. Rather, I simply found his response distasteful. The Drug & Rape accusations was made a few years ago. This isn't something Tyson just learned about and is responding reflexively to. 

 

 

[iNow]

Does anyone here doubt that he’d do the right thing if evidence demanded it?

But therein lies the rub... evidence is nonexistent in these issues.

It’s always he said she said. It’s always painful. It always sucks. 

Once again, we all retreat to our respective tribes. 

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Here's what he said on FB. Seems to be taking it appropriately:

 

That is just some of what he said. Here in the full post. I already mentioned a few things that bothered me about his remarks. Here are some additional things:

Quote

 

The 2009 Incident

"I am asked by thousands of people per year to take pictures with them. A flattering, time consuming, but delightful chore. As many in my fan-base can attest, I get almost giddy if I notice you’re wearing cosmic bling – clothing or jewelry or tattoos that portray the universe, either scientifically or artistically. And I make it a priority to point out these adornments for the photograph."

"I only just learned (nine years after) that she thought this behavior creepy. That was never my intent and I’m deeply sorry to have made her feel that way. Had I been told of her discomfort in the moment, I would have offered this same apology eagerly, and on the spot. In my mind’s eye, I’m a friendly and accessible guy, but going forward, I can surely be more sensitive to people’s personal space, even in the midst of my planetary enthusiasm."

 

Here Tyson reminds us (the reader) he is a celebrity by referencing the flattering chore of taking pics with thousands of people. He then goes on to point out that the women waited nine years to come forward and basically blames her for the whole things be saying what he "would" have done "had" she reacted differently. 

Quote

 

Summer 2018 Incident

"In the final week of shooting, with just a few days left, as a capstone of our friendship, I invited her to wine & cheese at my place upon dropping me off from work. No pressure. I serve wine & cheese often to visitors. And I even alerted her that others from the production were gathering elsewhere that evening, so she could just drop me off and head straight there or anywhere elsewhere. She freely chose to come by for wine & cheese and I was delighted. In the car, we had started a long conversation that could continue unabated. Production days are long. We arrived late, but she was on her way home two hours later.

Afterwards, she came into my office to told me she was creeped out by the wine & cheese evening. She viewed the invite as an attempt to seduce her, even though she sat across the wine & cheese table from me, and all conversation had been in the same vein as all other conversations we ever had."

"At that last meeting in my office, I apologized profusely. She accepted the apology. And I assured her that had I known she was uncomfortable, I would have apologized on the spot, ended the evening, and possibly reminded her of the other social gathering that she could attend. She nonetheless declared it her last day, with only a few days left of production.

I note that her final gesture to me was the offer of a hug, which I accepted as a parting friend."

 

Tyson acknowledges the women notified him that she felt he was inappropriate and even resigned over the matter. Tyson claims to be sorry yet prefaces the encounter be stating she freely chose to come in and he had even mentioned another place she could go. Tyson finishes by noting that they had hugged. It comes across to me as obtuse. 

Quote

 

Early 1980s

I entered astrophysics graduate school directly out of college in 1980. It’s a grueling adventure-marathon, and many people do not finish the PhD. In fact, it was not uncommon for half the admitted students to leave after two or three years, finding some other kind of work in their lives. While in graduate school I had several girlfriends, one of whom would become my wife of thirty years, a mathematical physicist -- we met in Relativity class. Over this time I had a brief relationship with a fellow astro-graduate student, from a more recent entering class. I remember being intimate only a few times, all at her apartment, but the chemistry wasn’t there. So the relationship faded quickly. There was nothing otherwise odd or unusual about this friendship.

I didn't see much of her after that time. Our student offices were on different floors of the building and we were not in the same classes. A few years later, I ran into her, pregnant, with who I think was the father by her side. That’s when I had learned that she dropped out of graduate school. Again, this is not itself an unusual fact, but I nonetheless wished her well in motherhood and in whatever career path would follow.

More than thirty years later, as my visibility-level took another jump, I read a freshly posted blog accusing me of drugging and raping a woman I did not recognize by either photo or name. Turned out to be the same person who I dated briefly in graduate school. She had changed her name and lived an entire life, married with children, before this accusation.

For me, what was most significant, was that in this new life, long after dropping out of astrophysics graduate school, she was posting videos of colored tuning forks endowed with vibrational therapeutic energy that she channels from the orbiting planets. As a scientist, I found this odd. Meanwhile, according to her blog posts, the drug and rape allegation comes from an assumption of what happened to her during a night that she cannot remember. It is as though a false memory had been implanted, which, because it never actually happened, had to be remembered as an evening she doesn’t remember. Nor does she remember waking up the next morning and going to the office. I kept a record of everything she posted, in case her stories morphed over time. So this is sad, which, for me, defies explanation.

I note that this allegation was used as a kind of solicitation-bait by at least one journalist to bring out of the woodwork anybody who had any encounter with me that left them uncomfortable.

 

I quoted the whole portion here because there is a lot of shade tossed around. Tyson opens by pointing out how difficult Grad school is and how hard he worked. He then references have several girlfriends. Saying one  of them  he was intimate with a few times but there was no chemistry. After that Tyson begins tossing shade. First he recalls seeing her pregnant "with who I think was the father by her side".  To me Tyson is trying to imply it may not have been the father and muddy the water. Tyson then states she had dropped out of school. Another meaningless detail. He follows by saying he "nonetheless" wished her well. By using "nonetheless" Tyson is saying that in-spite of her being a pregnant drop out accompanied by who knows who he was still nice to her. Ugly stuff. Next Tyson mentions his fame "visibility level" to imply motive then proceeds to basically call her stupid writing about stuff he saw on her blog.  

Tyson doesn't need to be on social media doing this. He could have made far simplier remarks via a publicists. Instead he took to the more proactive platform of FaceBook. I think this sort of response is beneath him. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

Does anyone here doubt that he’d do the right thing if evidence demanded it?

But therein lies the rub... evidence is nonexistent in these issues.

It’s always he said she said. It’s always painful. It always sucks. 

Once again, we all retreat to our respective tribes. 

I honestly don't know him well enough (not at all personally) to say.

I do know that in the most innocuous accusation (Pluto tattoo) he claimed he didn't remember it, but admitted that it would be something he would tend to do, and would have apologized on the spot if he had realized it was felt to be inappropriate. (Easy to admit to after being accused of something 1,000 X worse, so nothing to assuage any doubts to any great extent)

[Ten oz]

19 minutes ago, iNow said:

Does anyone here doubt that he’d do the right thing if evidence demanded it?

But therein lies the rub... evidence is nonexistent in these issues.

It’s always he said she said. It’s always painful. It always sucks. 

Once again, we all retreat to our respective tribes. 

His former assistant confronted him soon after and resigned her job for him due to what happened. That strongly implies she believes her versions of events. Tyson is still dismissive of her. So I don't know if I believe he would do the right thing. At least in the case of his assistant he may have already failed to do the right thing. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

27 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

His former assistant confronted him soon after and resigned her job for him due to what happened. That strongly implies she believes her versions of events. Tyson is still dismissive of her. So I don't know if I believe he would do the right thing. At least in the case of his assistant he may have already failed to do the right thing. 

OK. Let's speculate.

They flirt. He invites her up to his apartment. Despite having a boyfriend, she is intrigued enough to go. She turns him down. He is disappointed, but accepts it. She feels a little guilty, as she should, but also blames him (he would certainly be to blame as well in this fictitious scenario, especially being married)

The whole thing is in the category of "none of our business", unless you are his wife or have reason to believe he tried to coerce her with regard to her job.

This, at it's worst based on our understanding at this time, is insignificant in comparison to the drug and rape accusation. If anything, it tells us he understands no means no, at least with regard to this accuser.

The logic is in the category of:

All males are pigs

Tyson is a male

Tyson must be a pig

Tyson should start by apologizing for being a pig, before any attempt to defend himself further

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by J.C.MacSwell

[beecee]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

OK. Let's speculate.

They flirt. He invites her up to his apartment. Despite having a boyfriend, she is intrigued enough to go. She turns him down. He is disappointed, but accepts it. She feels a little guilty, as she should, but also blames him (he would certainly be to blame as well in this fictitious scenario, especially being married)

The whole thing is in the category of "none of our business", unless you are his wife or have reason to believe he tried to coerce her with regard to her job.

This, at it's worst based on our understanding at this time, is insignificant in comparison to the drug and rape accusation. If anything, it tells us he understands no means no, at least with regard to this accuser.

The logic is in the category of:

All males are pigs

Tyson is a male

Tyson must be a pig

Tyson should start by apologizing for being a pig, before any attempt to defend himself further

 

Thing is what was seen as harmless years ago, is viewed by many now as harrassment. Let me relate two incidents.....Many years ago, I had a sheila give me a slap on the bum and mumble nice arse ....many many years ago! I was as happy as any bloke could be and took it as a compliment.....incident 2: While walking 20ft or so behind a buxom blonde with low cut blouse and short shorts, and passing a building site, the workmen on said side let out with a series of wolf whistles and calls. It wasn't directed at me. The blonde simply turned around, open up her blouse to bare a large pair of breasts and flashed them to the wolf whistlers. I of course just happened to get an eye full which didn't concern her one bit.

standards change.

Edited December 3, 2018 by beecee

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

OK. Let's speculate.

They flirt. He invites her up to his apartment. Despite having a boyfriend, she is intrigued enough to go. She turns him down. He is disappointed, but accepts it. She feels a little guilty, as she should, but also blames him (he would certainly be to blame as well in this fictitious scenario, especially being married)

The whole thing is in the category of "none of our business", unless you are his wife or have reason to believe he tried to coerce her with regard to her job.

This, at it's worst based on our understanding at this time, is insignificant in comparison to the drug and rape accusation. If anything, it tells us he understands no means no, at least with regard to this accuser.

The logic is in the category of:

All males are pigs

Tyson is a male

Tyson must be a pig

Tyson should start by apologizing for being a pig, before any attempt to defend himself further

 

So he didn't do it but even if he did it's okay? 

She worked for him. He was her boss. Tyson says as much in his post on the matter. Your speculation doesn't align with either the assistant's  Tyson's version of events. The only difference between Tyson's version and the assistants version is that the assistant claims Tyson stripped down to his underwear. If the assistant story is true it is troubling behavior. In my opinion it is normal to accept an invitation from one's boss. I think most employees are intimidated by their bosses and would be fearful of declining. No one in that sort of position of authority over another should be taking advantage of that to make sexual overtures. 

I said that the fact that the women would confront Tyson and give up her job over the matter strongly implies she believes her version of events. I didn't say her version was correct. Tyson's version of events as he wrote and posted them read a but troubling as well for the reasons posted early. 

48 minutes ago, beecee said:

Thing is what was seen as harmless years ago, is viewed by many now as harrassment.

Yes, if a married person in a position of power takes advantage of their position to get sexual favors it is harrashment. Tyson and his assistant weren't two young single people who met at a bar. Tyson is married and the assistant was assigned to him. Working for Tyson was her job. How she paid her bills. She wasn't palling around with him because she thought he was cool. She was an employee paid to assist him..

[zapatos]

Interpreting the hidden meaning behind a person's statements is a fool's errand. His comments could have been exactly the same whether he is innocent or guilty. No matter what he says, some will believe him, some will not. Some will think it is thoughtful, some will think he is being aggressive. Some will find him credible, some will not. Discussing whether or not we believe him or what his intentions are may be an enjoyable pastime, but we shouldn't make the mistake of believing that after a long discussion we will be any closer to knowing the truth.