Neil DeGrasse Tyson Misconduct

[J.C.MacSwell]

40 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

So he didn't do it but even if he did it's okay? 

She worked for him. He was her boss. Tyson says as much in his post on the matter. Your speculation doesn't align with either the assistant's  Tyson's version of events. The only difference between Tyson's version and the assistants version is that the assistant claims Tyson stripped down to his underwear. If the assistant story is true it is troubling behavior. In my opinion it is normal to accept an invitation from one's boss. I think most employees are intimidated by their bosses and would be fearful of declining. No one in that sort of position of authority over another should be taking advantage of that to make sexual overtures. 

I said that the fact that the women would confront Tyson and give up her job over the matter strongly implies she believes her version of events. I didn't say her version was correct. Tyson's version of events as he wrote and posted them read a but troubling as well for the reasons posted early. 

Do what? Try to seduce her?

**Taking off shoes and shirt (but still have a tank top on)? Gaze into her eyes while doing a native handshake?

Certainly not OK if it made her uncomfortable but hardly a crime.

Where did anyone claim he "stripped down to his underwear"? Did you make that up?

**That might seem weird and creepy on a typical day in December...and perfectly normal on a hot day in July...but not a crime either way

Edited December 3, 2018 by J.C.MacSwell

[DirtyChai]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Thing is what was seen as harmless years ago, is viewed by many now as harrassment. Let me relate two incidents.....Many years ago, I had a sheila give me a slap on the bum and mumble nice arse ....many many years ago! I was as happy as any bloke could be and took it as a compliment.....incident 2: While walking 20ft or so behind a buxom blonde with low cut blouse and short shorts, and passing a building site, the workmen on said side let out with a series of wolf whistles and calls. It wasn't directed at me. The blonde simply turned around, open up her blouse to bare a large pair of breasts and flashed them to the wolf whistlers. I of course just happened to get an eye full which didn't concern her one bit.

standards change.

Right, nowadays the men could be removed from the construction site and the woman could be charged with indecent exposure and labeled a sex offender.

I suppose one good thing about a society where even flirting is viewed as borderline harassment is that it might help curb the overpopulation problem.

I'd imagine it's harder now for most men to approach women than ever before.  Perhaps it's best if we all start color coding our availability. 

Green stickers - game on. 

Yellow Stickers - approach with caution.

Red stickers - off limits.

Rainbow stickers - anything goes.

 

[beecee]

14 minutes ago, DirtyChai said:

I'd imagine it's harder now for most men to approach women than ever before.  Perhaps it's best if we all start color coding our availability. 

I have had that view re-enforced by my Son and some of his friends of both sexes....The approaching women bit, not so  much the colour coding.  

Edited December 3, 2018 by beecee

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, beecee said:

Thing is what was seen as harmless years ago, is viewed by many now as harrassment. Let me relate two incidents.....Many years ago, I had a sheila give me a slap on the bum and mumble nice arse ....many many years ago! I was as happy as any bloke could be and took it as a compliment.....incident 2: While walking 20ft or so behind a buxom blonde with low cut blouse and short shorts, and passing a building site, the workmen on said side let out with a series of wolf whistles and calls. It wasn't directed at me. The blonde simply turned around, open up her blouse to bare a large pair of breasts and flashed them to the wolf whistlers. I of course just happened to get an eye full which didn't concern her one bit.

standards change.

Are you sure?

Standards do change. It's important for us to remember they are different for different people, and we should all proceed with a degree of caution not to offend. Tyson seems to have understood that and attempted to make amends on two of these cases, whether he did anything indefensibly wrong or not.

The third accusation of drugging and raping is much more serious, of course. Nothing like that has ever been acceptable in our lifetimes.

[Phi for All]

1 hour ago, DirtyChai said:

I'd imagine it's harder now for most men to approach women than ever before. 

I hope the ones with bad intentions are striking out left and right. 

[beecee]

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Are you sure?

Standards do change. It's important for us to remember they are different for different people, and we should all proceed with a degree of caution not to offend. Tyson seems to have understood that and attempted to make amends on two of these cases, whether he did anything indefensibly wrong or not.

The third accusation of drugging and raping is much more serious, of course. Nothing like that has ever been acceptable in our lifetimes.

 

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

I hope the ones with bad intentions are striking out left and right. 

As per my first post on this matter, if it is shown that De-Grasse Tyson is guilty with intent, then throw the book at him. But obviously sometimes some nonsense is undertaken as I also mentioned before, and in many cases its her word against his. 

[pavelcherepan]

15 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Tyson further diminished his accusers voices by talking about the need for evidence.

I thought that we lived in the judicial system that values presumption of innocence and evidence is therefore absolutely required to accuse someone of wrongdoing. At the same time the public opinion doesn't work this way so already by publishing these stories (whether true or false), these women have made a serious damage to Mr. Tyson's public image. If he is innocent, I feel for him and hope that he'll be able to file a counter lawsuit.

On the other hand, if the purpose of these women was not to simply badmouth or potentially extort money from a famous person, it would be great to see evidence. And I wish them all the best if they have actually been mistreated and hope they will be able to prove it.

15 hours ago, Ten oz said:

Then ends the post with what I consider to be a bit of sarcasm by asking why he as the accused should be believed. Questions designed to position himself as the real victim here. I am disappointed by his response. Has anyone been following this story?

Once again, there's yet no proof that he did what he is accused of, but his public image has already taken a heavy blow, I assume. Therefore, as it stands at this moment, he is the victim and if he wants to be sarcastic, it's his right to be honest.

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by pavelcherepan

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, pavelcherepan said:

I thought that we lived in the judicial system that values presumption of innocence and evidence is therefore absolutely required to accuse someone of wrongdoing. At the same time the public opinion doesn't work this way so already by publishing these stories (whether true or false), these women have made a serious damage to Mr. Tyson's public image. If he is innocent, I feel for him and hope that he'll be able to file a counter lawsuit.

On the other hand, if the purpose of these women was not to simply badmouth or potentially extort money from a famous person, it would be great to see evidence. And I wish them all the best if they have actually been mistreated and hope they will be able to prove it.

Once again, there's yet no proof that he did what he is accused of, but his public image has already taken a heavy blow, I assume. Therefore, as it stands at this moment, he is the victim and if he wants to be sarcastic, it's his right to be honest.

 

I am accusing Tyson of a crude response. I am not claiming to he is guilty of rape. Tyson posted on social media about it specifically to speak  with his fans and the public at large. As part of the target audience Tyson was speaking to I am able to have my own opinion about the response. I found it distasteful. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Ten oz

[swansont]

1 hour ago, pavelcherepan said:

I thought that we lived in the judicial system that values presumption of innocence and evidence is therefore absolutely required to accuse someone of wrongdoing.

Has he been accused in a court of law?

1 hour ago, pavelcherepan said:

 At the same time the public opinion doesn't work this way so already by publishing these stories (whether true or false), these women have made a serious damage to Mr. Tyson's public image.

If they are true, then he doesn't deserve his public image.

1 hour ago, pavelcherepan said:

 On the other hand, if the purpose of these women was not to simply badmouth or potentially extort money from a famous person, it would be great to see evidence. And I wish them all the best if they have actually been mistreated and hope they will be able to prove it.

In the high-profile cases we have seen in the last several years, has there been anyone who has gotten any kind of windfall from going public with these accusations?

I wish we could put to rest the notion that the underlying motive here is money.

1 hour ago, pavelcherepan said:

Once again, there's yet no proof that he did what he is accused of, but his public image has already taken a heavy blow, I assume. Therefore, as it stands at this moment, he is the victim and if he wants to be sarcastic, it's his right to be honest.

Tyson has admitted to two of the incidents. The issue of the alleged drugging and raping is the one that needs corroborating evidence. 

8 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Do what? Try to seduce her?

**Taking off shoes and shirt (but still have a tank top on)? Gaze into her eyes while doing a native handshake?

Certainly not OK if it made her uncomfortable but hardly a crime.

There's a work relationship at play. He was her boss. Probably not across the line of sexual harassment, though, if it was not a pattern of unwanted contact.

But it was poor judgement. 

 

[iNow]

What could even constitute evidence here? Absent security camera footage or audio recordings, what possibly rises to evidentiary standards?

[Silvestru]

A bit of an off-topic but as Beecee mentioned times have changed.

I was watching mad men recently and even though it is just a TV show it does kind of reflect behaviour towards women in the 60's. 

My point is that a lot of the accusers and accusations (very serious ones like drugging and rape aside) relate these stories from 9-10 years ago when these things happened on a wider basis and with less media or any other kind of attention. But now when these victims see the (very welcomed)  changes in today's society they feel like their voice will be heard.

Related to this case, like swansont mentioned, mr. Tyson more or less admitted to the "less serious" incidents.
I am not saying one way or the other but just from the sentence above, he seems like an easy target for a more serious accusation. 

 

[Ten oz]

8 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Do what? Try to seduce her?

**Taking off shoes and shirt (but still have a tank top on)? Gaze into her eyes while doing a native handshake?

Certainly not OK if it made her uncomfortable but hardly a crime.

Where did anyone claim he "stripped down to his underwear"? Did you make that up?

**That might seem weird and creepy on a typical day in December...and perfectly normal on a hot day in July...but not a crime either way

From the Patheos article:

Quote

 

Watson, who said she felt pressured to impress her superstar boss, told me she agreed to come in for a glass of wine instead. Upon entering his apartment, Tyson allegedly took off his shoes and shirt, remaining in a tank top undershirt. Unfortunately, the night only got more awkward as Tyson, who is married, reportedly put on romantic music and replayed the most graphic parts.

She says Tyson soon brought out a cutting board and a knife to cut blocks of cheese that he decided they would share. But before slicing the snack, he allegedly gestured toward her with the knife and made a comment about stabbing.

Watson says she took the comment as a bad joke, but it’s important to note that this type of “joke” is exactly what people in power need to keep in mind when dealing with subordinates. And it set the stage for a night filled with subtle intimidation and sexual advances

 

Have you ever been in a supervisory position before? If so would you seriously behave this way with someone under you? I have been and currently am. I would never bring a subordinate to my place, offer them alcohol, get undressed, and etc. It is very unprofessional behavior. I see nothing innocent in this account. The assistant left her job over it. If one of my people quit over such I would be investigated and most likely lose my job or be frozen out of future advancement. 

In Tyson's response to to the 2009 incident he describes learning of the complaint 9yrs later without acknowledging the complaint was made known to others in 2013. Tyson instead implies via omission that the women had waited 9yrs to complain. Tyson is a very intelligent person. I believe Tyson understand what is implied by his words. His response totally ignores that in 2013 adjustments were made to keep him away from small groups of female students. 

Quote

Katelyn described the earlier incident to me in the fall of 2013, after she was invited to attend a dinner with Dr. Tyson when he was to be on campus in spring 2014 as a speaker in Bucknell’s “Tech/no” series.  I had recently served on a university committee with one of the organizers of the series, so I arranged to meet with that person and indicated privately that Katelyn did not wish to attend the dinner, and spoke in general terms the reasons why. At that time, Katelyn expressed that she did not want to pursue the issue more publicly (e.g., broadly inform the organizing committee, or try to get the invitation to speak withdrawn), so I talked with the organizer privately about two things: (1) to be sure that Katelyn was no longer expected at dinner, and (2)  some general recommendations to avoid having female students meeting with him in small groups without additional members of the community present.”

Neither of these 2 incidents are criminal. I am not claiming otherwise. Rather I am put off by the manner in which Tyson selected to respond to them. Both incidents were more substantial than what he describes. A person quit their job and a campus made special recommendations regarding his visit. 

[Silvestru]

11 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

I am not saying one way or the other but just from the sentence above, he seems like an easy target for a more serious accusation. 

Just to give an example to what I am trying to say here. I do not mean any disrespect comparing these unfortunate situation to games but just to clarify my point.

 Recently a game was released and many people started complaining as they were disappointed in the product.
They started getting reparation after they complained. Some people were perfectly happy with the product but after visiting forums for this game and other media, they saw they could get some extra stuff so as you would expect, they started complaining, again,  just because they knew that they would be treated seriously just because of the sheer number of complaints.

Now back to our case. We do not know if this accusation is true or not but IF, IF (not saying this is the case) you wanted to make a false accusation to get fame and some money, this is a good target. (considering the previous 2 misconducts)

Edited December 3, 2018 by Silvestru

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

What could even constitute evidence here? Absent security camera footage or audio recordings, what possibly rises to evidentiary standards?

In the case of the colleague at the after party and the assistant all parties agree on the events which took place. Tyson admits to taking interest in the tattoo and admits to bring his assistant into a private residence for wine. The women claim they felt uncomfortable and Tyson claims not to have been aware of their discomfort. To your point no amount of evidence could possibly exist which could read Tyson's or the women's minds. 

In the case of the rape accusation the 2 accounts vary significantly. Tyson claims the 2 dated for a while and had a few consensual intimate encounters. The women claims the 2 never dated. A photo of the two together, letters/notes between the 2, former classmates accounts, and etc could be evidence that would support Tyson's account that they dated.  

[Silvestru]

6 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Tyson claims the 2 dated for a while and had a few consensual intimate encounters. The women claims the 2 never dated. A photo of the two together, letters/notes between the 2, former classmates accounts, and etc could be evidence that would support Tyson's account that they dated.  

Would you find the absence of such evidence as pictures etc as condemning? I had a few relationships that lasted months where I have no evidence that I could show you. Also very few people knew about them. Few text messages on phones and phone numbers that I have since changed and changed again.
Does he look more guilty if he cant provide such proof?

[Ten oz]

5 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Now back to our case. We do not know if this accusation is true or not but IF, IF (not saying this is the case) you wanted to make a false accusation to get fame and some money, this is a good target. (considering the previous 2 misconducts)

One incident happened in 2009 and was initially reported in 2013. In that incident the accuser is Physics Professor at Bucknell University. I could be wrong but I assume a Professor at Bucknell makes a good salary. Also if this was a play for fame and money it makes no sense to have kept the 2013 report discreet. In the more recent allegation Tyson was made aware in short order and had the opportunity to direct the complaint along for review/investigation when the women resigned. 

[Silvestru]

1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

One incident happened in 2009 and was initially reported in 2013. In that incident the accuser is Physics Professor at Bucknell University. I could be wrong but I assume a Professor at Bucknell makes a good salary. Also if this was a play for fame and money it makes no sense to have kept the 2013 report discreet. In the more recent allegation Tyson was made aware in short order and had the opportunity to direct the complaint along for review/investigation when the women resigned. 

Oh, I believe that the 2 previous cases are true. I am referring just to the rape accusation in my post. Apologies if I did not clarify.

30 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Related to this case, like swansont mentioned, mr. Tyson more or less admitted to the "less serious" incidents.

 

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

Would you find the absence of such evidence as pictures etc as condemning?

No

3 minutes ago, Silvestru said:

I had a few relationships that lasted months where I have no evidence that I could show you. Also very few people knew about them. Few text messages on phones and phone numbers that I have since changed and changed again.
Does he look more guilty if he cant provide such proof?

Quote

Amet says the next time she confronted Tyson was in public, at a NOVA event in California. She publicly accused Tyson of raping her in front of a live audience in 2010. Here

The Rape allegation has been known to Tyson for several years. I don't think it makes him look guilty but I do think his his response to it all on facebook was distasteful. These accusation have been out there a while. As a public figure and intelligent person surely he knew the day was coming when he'd be asked about them. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Watson, who said she felt pressured to impress her superstar boss, told me she agreed to come in for a glass of wine instead. Upon entering his apartment, Tyson allegedly took off his shoes and shirt, remaining in a tank top undershirt. Unfortunately, the night only got more awkward as Tyson, who is married, reportedly put on romantic music and replayed the most graphic parts.

She says Tyson soon brought out a cutting board and a knife to cut blocks of cheese that he decided they would share. But before slicing the snack, he allegedly gestured toward her with the knife and made a comment about stabbing.

Watson says she took the comment as a bad joke, but it’s important to note that this type of “joke” is exactly what people in power need to keep in mind when dealing with subordinates. And it set the stage for a night filled with subtle intimidation and sexual advances

So Watson, who was there, says she took the comment as a bad joke, but you, Ten oz, focus on the bold, written by the journalist that was trying to make a story out of it. 

10 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

  10 hours ago, Ten oz said:

So he didn't do it but even if he did it's okay? 

She worked for him. He was her boss. Tyson says as much in his post on the matter. Your speculation doesn't align with either the assistant's  Tyson's version of events. The only difference between Tyson's version and the assistants version is that the assistant claims Tyson stripped down to his underwear. If the assistant story is true it is troubling behavior. In my opinion it is normal to accept an invitation from one's boss. I think most employees are intimidated by their bosses and would be fearful of declining. No one in that sort of position of authority over another should be taking advantage of that to make sexual overtures. 

I said that the fact that the women would confront Tyson and give up her job over the matter strongly implies she believes her version of events. I didn't say her version was correct. Tyson's version of events as he wrote and posted them read a but troubling as well for the reasons posted early. 

Are you going to retract that in the bold, or do you have a evidence she made that claim?

[Ten oz]

20 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

So Watson, who was there, says she took the comment as a bad joke, but you, Ten oz, focus on the bold, written by the journalist that was trying to make a story out of it. 

No, Waston complained directly to Tyson about the incident and resigned over it. 

21 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Are you going to retract that in the bold, or do you have a evidence she made that claim?

What is you definition of underwear? I certainly don't consider a tank top outer wear especially when initially was clothed over it. How many times in your life has a boss invited you privately into their space, gave you wine, and stripped down? 

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

No, Waston complained directly to Tyson about the incident and resigned over it. 

What is you definition of underwear? I certainly don't consider a tank top outer wear especially when initially was clothed over it. How many times in your life has a boss invited you privately into their space, gave you wine, and stripped down? 

So. The "stripped down to his underwear" did come from you, as I expected. Trying to make it sound as bad as you can...for what purpose?

[iNow]

All of this discussion goes to the deeper issue of this case, and other cases like it. 

Where you draw the line is different from where I draw the line, which is different still from where a third person draws the line. 

How do we navigate through and between all of the complexities regarding what is mere unawareness and social awkwardness versus what is malicious and unacceptable? Between friendships with flirtation and expectations with consequences?

I’m glad we’re finally having these discussions. I’m sad that even I as a deep supporter of the change also struggle with clarity. 

[Hans de Vries]

Hi.

What are the exact details of how the purported rape victim remembered the rape? Wasn't she unaware of it for over 30 years and then "remembered" it after some star alignment or something like that?

THat's what she wrote:

Quote

Today is October 8, 2014. 30 years. Today there was an eclipse, during the Ra Aspolia Pi Cot Sahu (Full Moon and Portal of Djehuty (Sun in Sidereal Virgo, Moon in PIsces, Mercury Retrograde). Kinda intense when you really sit bak and take it all in. Tomorrow, Set (Mars, Ego) has an appointment with Master healer Imhotep (Mars enters Ophiuchus: tome for healing from sexual trauma, time for conquering lower nature, etc).
All this to say that this posting is in alignment with the Divine Natural Right Order. Although I know this is the right decision, it has been difficult to take action, because I know this monster is loved by so many of you. However, in order to maintain my own well being, peace of mind, sanity, longevity, positivity, peaceful relationships, health, happiness, self love and self trust, in order to elimnate blocks to my own abundance and prosperity, it has become impossible to keep silent anymore.

-/-

The ONLY way you could EVER be with a Black Goddess, a true Celestial Being, not just one that talks about them, would be by DRUGGING HER, THEN DRAGGING HER TO YOUR BEDROOM, WHILE FULLY UNCONSCIOUS, TAKING OFF HER CLOTHES, AND THEN, WHO KNOWS WHAT WITH HER, OR FOR HOW LONG, WHEN SHE AWAKENS, UNABLE TO MOVE, YOU CONTINUE YOUR DEMONIC ACTS. Is this what you mean by curiosity? I only recall being at the astronomy department the next day. I do not know how long I was in his apartment. I have no idea how I got back to my apartment. I do not even remember waking up the next day. All I remember is seeing him in the hallway at the astronomy department at UT Austin, and I asked him, “Why did this happen?” He responded, “We are in this alone, and we are in this together”.

 

[StringJunky]

30 minutes ago, iNow said:

All of this discussion goes to the deeper issue of this case, and other cases like it. 

Where you draw the line is different from where I draw the line, which is different still from where a third person draws the line. 

How do we navigate through and between all of the complexities regarding what is mere unawareness and social awkwardness versus what is malicious and unacceptable? Between friendships with flirtation and expectations with consequences?

I’m glad we’re finally having these discussions. I’m sad that even I as a deep supporter of the change also struggle with clarity. 

However you cut it, it boils down to some tangible, objective evidence is needed in any case before a jury or board. Some things, because of this, one has to put it down to experience, or lack of it.

[swansont]

2 hours ago, iNow said:

What could even constitute evidence here? Absent security camera footage or audio recordings, what possibly rises to evidentiary standards?

Depends on if it's a court case or just public sentiment. For a court case, I doubt any such evidence exists.

As we have seen previously, there are ways of establishing (or at least supporting) the credibility of the accuser. If there are people she told at the time, for example.