Man shot by mistake?

[Ophiolite]

In this instance it is clear that the police acted correctly.

Oh, that's good. I'll let the coroner and the independent investigation committee know their work is done, shall I? Don't you feel it is a tiny bit presumptive to declare you know they acted correctly, when you are not in possession of all the facts?

[Aardvark]

Don't you feel it is a tiny bit presumptive to declare you know they acted correctly, when you are not[/b'] in possession of all the facts?

 

From the available facts, the police were following a man who they had reason to believe may have been a suicide bomber. They followed him until he reached a Tube station. At which point they identified themselves as police officers and ordered him to halt. This man, instead of halting, ran into the Tube station toward a crowded Tube train. The police officers chased him, tackled him to the ground where he continued to struggle. At this point, in a crowded underground Tube station full of innocent bystanders trying to restrain a struggling suspected suicide bomber the police shot him in the head.

 

From those public facts it is clear that the police acted correctly. If it turns out there is any new information which completely changes our understanding of what happened i will retract and apologise but that does not seem remotely likely because the facts are so clear and definitive in this instance.

 

This is a clear situation where the police acted properly and very bravely in the course of protecting people from suicide bombers. They have my thanks and respect.

[YT2095]

not only that, But consider this, YOU are one of those police men, you beleive he HAS A BOMB and is going to detonate it, but yet you STILL run TOWARDS him without thought of your own life or safety, these lads are Family men, plenty to lose, could YOU do it?

[Ophiolite]

not only that, But consider this, YOU are one of those police men, you beleive he HAS A BOMB and is going to detonate it, but yet you STILL run TOWARDS him without thought of your own life or safety, these lads are Family men, plenty to lose, could YOU do it?

YT, you have consistently and admirably made this same point throughout this thread. I am in 100% agreement with you. I am pleased that the same thoughts occured to me before your promptings and before we knew the victim was innocent.

 

It puzzles (and saddens) me, that while we seem ready to accept the police officers acted according to the highest of professional standards, applying these within a flawless system of intelligence gathering and ensuring a rigorous application of procedures, some of us here are, as the obverse of this, prepared to tarnish the reputation of a now dead individual - accusing him of stupidity.

 

My position remains, that until the investigation is completed we do not know what the 'truth' is. I am astounded at Aardvark's cavalier approach to the gathering and evaluation of evidence (see below) and I have already acquired an official warning for expressing my contempt for Mokele's ‘heartless bastard’ position on the matter.

 

 

 

Aardvark, thank you for your detailed response. Here is what disturbs me in it:

 

From the available facts...

We are party to very few available facts. A selection of eyewitness testimony and official police statements, filtered through a media blitz.

......the police were following a man who they had reason to believe may have been a suicide bomber.

They have an entire block of flats surrounded and their intelligence is so flawed they follow an innocent individual from a completely different flat. That merits investigation.

At which point they identified themselves as police officers and ordered him to halt.

This has not been properly verified. Nor has the manner and clarity of any warning been established.

Aardvark, this may all have been done with great precion and correctness and the victim may just have been stupid, but this needs to be established properly. I find it surprising that you, who are attentive to such detail in science discussions abandon the approach when 'all' that is at risk is the reputation of a dead man.

The police officers chased him, tackled him to the ground where he continued to struggle.

Again, simply not established.

[Pangloss]

I'm done with this, standing by the reasons I outlined above, none of which have been refuted except on an opinion level, which I respect.

 

Unlike you, Aardvark, I respect your opinion on this, and I'm sorry my postings don't meet your quality standards.

[YT2095]

we really DO need to hear the final outcome of this, and lets hope it`s done by an independant inquirey without prejudice, I couldn`t agree more with you there if that`s what you meant.

 

I will add that I take my hat off to Sir Ian Blair, he`s handling all of this just as he should, and with the composure and decorum that a man of his status requires, he`s a GOOD man!

[Aardvark]

My position remains' date=' that until the investigation is completed we do not [b']know [/b]what the 'truth' is. I am astounded at Aardvark's cavalier approach to the gathering and evaluation of evidence (see below) and I have already acquired an official warning for expressing my contempt for Mokele's ‘heartless bastard’ position on the matter.]

 

My approach may seem cavalier because from my reading of the situation sufficent facts are available to reach clear conclusions about what happened.

 

However i do accept that it is possible that new facts may come to light. If that happens i again state that i will retract and apologise if my initial judgement proves wrong.

 

 

Aardvark, this may all have been done with great precion and correctness and the victim may just have been stupid, but this needs to be established properly. I find it surprising that you, who are attentive to such detail in science discussions abandon the approach when 'all' that is at risk is the reputation of a dead man.

 

You are correct, the precise facts will need to be carefully gathered and checked. I have at no point wished to defame the dead man, i obviously regret his shooting, it is a very sad matter. The way i see it, it is possible to regret his death and still believe that the police acted correctly and bravely.

 

Perhaps it is the sight of a bomb blast less than 50 yards from where i used to live on a bus route i used to take, or that the train my brother takes to work got blown up that has made me rather hard hearted in this matter. I don't think this is an abstract philosophical matter. The police have to defend the public against callous murderers who are not ammenible to any reason or compassion. That means using deadly force where there is no other alternative. The posts i have read calling for the police officers to be prosecuted and blathering about their being an open season on anyone who looks suspicious have struck me as deeply foolish and offensive.

 

I do not mean to come across as uncaring and heartless but comments about prosecuting the police who are trying to protect us and ill informed talk about the police lacking guidelines and even comments that it would be better to let the suicide bombers blow up trains to demonstrate some sort of moral superiority to them digust me. This is a real situation with a lot of real people dead and even now there is a knee jerk response against the police. I hope some people will wake up and understand the reality of this situation and stop living in some sort of fantasy land of moral relativism.

[Ophiolite]

Thank you for that measured response. I am certainly not one of those calling for prosecution of the police - unless the investigation were to reveal that was appropriate. In general, I am pending judgement. Overall, I have been impressed by the efficiency and apparent effectiveness of the police and security forces.. That should not blind us to the fact that mistakes have been made. It is appropriate, indeed essential, that the source of these mistakes is identified and actions taken to prevent a reoccurence.

I am sympathetic to the personal involvement you feel in this. When I am in London the only way I travel is by tube. Each of those stations is familiar to me. I am also well aware of the impact of terrorism or just plain civil unrest and corruption. I've been in locations where it was thought appropriate I be accompanied by ten fully armed soldiers and I've had loaded guns pointed in my face at roadblocks more often than I care to remember - perhaps that's why I am sensitive to being gunned down by the 'good guys'.

[Thomas Kirby]

Not only could I do it, I could also physically drag his bad self out into an open area and strip him down to make sure that he was or was not carrying a bomb. I would simply assume that if had not set off the bomb by the time I grabbed him, he either had no bomb or it wasn't working.

 

Live with it, Aardvark. That officer needs to go to jail and so do the people who ordered him to do what he did.

 

not only that, But consider this, YOU are one of those police men, you beleive he HAS A BOMB and is going to detonate it, but yet you STILL run TOWARDS him without thought of your own life or safety, these lads are Family men, plenty to lose, could YOU do it?

[Aardvark]

Not only could I do it, I could also physically drag his bad self out into an open area and strip him down to make sure that he was or was not carrying a bomb. I would simply assume that if had not set off the bomb by the time I grabbed him, he either had no bomb or it wasn't working.

 

When you join the police and volunteer for anti terrorist duties i will be happy to congratulate you. Up until that point i shall regard you as an immature braggart.

 

Live with it, Aardvark. That officer needs to go to jail and so do the people who ordered him to do what he did.

 

Fortunately i doubt you are ever going to be in a position of sufficent responsibility to have any influence whatsoever on these decisions.

[Aardvark]

I am also well aware of the impact of terrorism or just plain civil unrest and corruption. I've been in locations where it was thought appropriate I be accompanied by ten fully armed soldiers and I've had loaded guns pointed in my face at roadblocks more often than I care to remember - perhaps that's why I am sensitive to being gunned down by the 'good guys'.

 

Yes, i can understad your concerns, it is important that the authorities act in a measured way and that a difficult situation is not allowed to be an excuse for overreaction. We, the general public, need to be able to trust that the people acting to protect us will always behave in a professional manner. That is a legitimate concern. In this case it is my opinion that the police were acting in that manner, although, as you pointed out we have the investigation and inquest to follow to clarify the circumstances.

 

I am sure that when you have had guns pointed at you by security forces it does bring the importance of the point home about those forces acting with apropriate restraint. It is a difficult and fine balance that has to be made.

[Pangloss]

The joys of a typical "debate" with Aardvark:

 

Up until that point i shall regard you as an immature braggart.

You don't seem to understand

If you'd bothered to actually check the facts

That should be simple enough for you to understand.

Wrong.

How hard is that for you to understand?

Perhaps you should have aquainted yourself with that information before your rant?

If you bothered to actually check the facts before making your unsubstantiated statements

You have not bothered to acquiant yourself with the facts of the situation.

You don't seem to understand the situation here.

Try and understand

I think most people are more intelligent than that.

Most people don't live in your lovely fantasy land.

Fortunately i doubt you are ever going to be in a position of sufficent responsibility to have any influence whatsoever on these decisions.

ill informed talk about the police lacking guidelines and even comments that it would be better to let the suicide bombers blow up trains to demonstrate some sort of moral superiority to them digust me

 

And the final gem:

 

If you feel my pointing out of these gross and multiple deficencies on your part is somehow insulting then i suggest that you stop being so over sensitive.

[Thomas Kirby]

Nice one. Looking forward to a career in diplomacy?

 

When you join the police and volunteer for anti terrorist duties i will be happy to congratulate you. Up until that point i shall regard you as an immature braggart.

 

 

 

Fortunately i doubt you are ever going to be in a position of sufficent responsibility to have any influence whatsoever on these decisions.

[Phi for All]

Thread closed pending further investigation.

[Dave]

I should probably add that I don't have any intention of letting the thread re-open. Pretty obvious we're just going to have a lovely circular argument going on which isn't fun for anyone.