Dropping out of highschool

[zapatos]

10 hours ago, Silvestru said:

Jokes aside, don't drop out of highschool. What you do after is debatable but most people would agree that you should finish it.

Characterizing Raider's plans as "dropping out of high school" seems unfair. Raider didn't say he was considering just "dropping out of high school", he said he was considering a plan that included determining whether or not he can pass the GED, and if he can, quitting school early and immediately getting his GED, followed by a full time job that he is already promised, and beginning college.

If Raider was not planning on college I would agree that staying in high school till graduation is clearly a better choice.

Raider has a good plan. It may not work out as he hopes, but staying in high school to graduation may not work out either. I don't pretend to know which option is the better, but I cannot see how the "stay in high school" plan could be considered clearly better than the "GED" plan.

[iNow]

Hope for the best. Plan for the worst. 

[Raider5678]

Just now, iNow said:

Hope for the best. Plan for the worst. 

You can plan for the worst, but that doesn't mean assume the worst case scenario will always happen and don't take risks.

It means have a plan for if things go terribly wrong.

[iNow]

Thanks, Captain Obvious. Appreciate that clarification. 

[iNow]

Biggest plausible risk that keeps coming to my mind is this:

You drop out of school. The economy then tanks. Market crashes. The employer you thought you could join must lay people off, or worse still goes out of business completely. 

You’re then left standing with your junk in your hand waving in the wind with no income, no diploma, and a much harder time executing this plan for GED.

You’d have nothing but the plan, which is about as helpful as a tutu on a sow. 

My perspective is also a bit different from yours as I have a whole family counting on me to survive and I’ve also been through an economic collapse before, so my risk tolerance is skewed lower accordingly.

[dimreepr]

40 minutes ago, iNow said:

42 minutes ago, iNow said:

Biggest plausible risk that keeps coming to my mind is this:

You drop out of school. The economy then tanks. Market crashes. The employer you thought you could join must lay people off, or worse still goes out of business completely. 

2

 

 

that seems riskier for the academic

[Phi for All]

Raider, I've read that you don't feel you're progressing satisfactorily, and I read that your school isn't willing to do anything further to decrease the time you spend in high school. Are those two things really equal? Progress isn't necessarily about getting something over with quicker. Is there a way your school can challenge you more, give you ways to progress better academically? Is early graduation the important part, or is it getting the best out of your education, or is work more important than either of those?

[J.C.MacSwell]

A lot of good advice on all sides of this. It is good Raider that you are thinking it through very thoroughly.

One thing with regard to the job itself, because it sounds like it may allow for an education in and of itself compared to most jobs 16 year olds have.

My questions would be about how transferable the skills and knowledge you gain at work might be? If the company does not do as well as they hoped, is it in an industry that would still thrive? How competitive would your skill set be moving forward?

You have a lot to consider. Finishing another term would put you where? Your Employer may look at you as even more important to them at that time than currently.

I like much of CY's advice. You should have a good discussion with your Employer if your plans and options include them.

[Raider5678]

6 hours ago, iNow said:

You drop out of school. The economy then tanks. Market crashes. The employer you thought you could join must lay people off, or worse still goes out of business completely. 

If that happened, I wouldn't have access to a good job anyways.

I can't afford college without this job. So if the market and economy suddenly tank and I get laid off, I'm not going to college. At that point, other problems arise as well and this is a situation that is bad in both areas.

That being said, if the market collapses while I'm in high school that'd be even worse, as then I wouldn't have any job experience nor savings, nor any progress on my college education. If it collapses while I'm getting them, then I'm in a better position. 

Additionally, this isn't really a controllable risk, and is something I'm willing to take on should I take the GED plan. My risk tolerance is higher then yours.

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Are those two things really equal? Progress isn't necessarily about getting something over with quicker. Is there a way your school can challenge you more, give you ways to progress better academically? Is early graduation the important part, or is it getting the best out of your education, or is work more important than either of those?

They aren't equal, but that being said the school has nothing more to offer academically. I.E. no extra courses, clubs, etc. 

So it's really just a time sink at the moment. Time that I could spend working, getting a college degree, etc. 

Early graduation isn't the important part, it's the amount of time I'm losing simply staying in school doing nothing, which is something I'd much rather be making money to put towards college for. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Raider5678

[Klaynos]

I don't know much about the US system but the team I manage does include software engineers. You say you'd be working as one, do you really mean you'd be working as a software engineer or would you be doing programming for a company who don't really know what software engineering is? That could make a big difference to you when you come to get your next job. 

A pretty simple interview question for an entry level software engineer might be something like "what importance do you place on quality assurance and what tools and practices have you employed to demonstrate this in a particular project?"

I'd suggest you need to think about this role, it's prospects both in the company and what you might want to do career wise next, after collage. 

You might also be interested to know that for university graduates we look at their a-levels as well (equivalent age to high school in the USA). 

[Raider5678]

4 hours ago, Klaynos said:

You say you'd be working as one, do you really mean you'd be working as a software engineer or would you be doing programming for a company who don't really know what software engineering is?

It's not a company devoted to software engineering, if that's what you mean.

It's an industry based company that handles about a million and a half shipments a year to various warehouses, construction sites, etc, of various building materials and supplies. The software is mostly used in collecting basic data, and then using that data to optimize the production.

For example, a software program that was used for recording parts that were damaged during production found that over 75% of parts being damaged on line 5 was at a single area. Upon inspection of the area, there turned out to be a rough spot on the conveyor which would scratch the part, damaging it. Stuff like that.

 

[Klaynos]

8 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

It's not a company devoted to software engineering, if that's what you mean.

It's an industry based company that handles about a million and a half shipments a year to various warehouses, construction sites, etc, of various building materials and supplies. The software is mostly used in collecting basic data, and then using that data to optimize the production.

For example, a software program that was used for recording parts that were damaged during production found that over 75% of parts being damaged on line 5 was at a single area. Upon inspection of the area, there turned out to be a rough spot on the conveyor which would scratch the part, damaging it. Stuff like that.

 

Please don't take this as a negative on you. I want you to make the best (whichever that is) informed decision for you. 

None of your answer fills me with confidence. 

No, I didn't mean a software company. There's a distinct difference between someone who writes software and someone who is a software engineer (which would normally also include writing software). 

What you then go on to talk isn't quality assurance in the software engineering context. 

You wouldn't have scored highly. But that's ok at this stage, as long as you know that you're writing software rather than engineering then you can make an informed decision. 

Given your answer a follow up might be something along the lines of "what process did you go through to decide your database schema?"

[CharonY]

On 12/14/2018 at 8:53 PM, zapatos said:

Characterizing Raider's plans as "dropping out of high school" seems unfair. Raider didn't say he was considering just "dropping out of high school", he said he was considering a plan that included determining whether or not he can pass the GED, and if he can, quitting school early and immediately getting his GED, followed by a full time job that he is already promised, and beginning college.

The crux of the matter is that I and others sense misconceptions including the fact that GEDs are not perceived the same as a HS-diploma by employees or colleges. The other aspect is that the envisaged employment path does not seem to be fully fleshed out either (at least based on the description so far) and hinges on a single employer (Klayno's questions are very important for self-evaluation at this point). So the good thing is that he has been asking for input. But unless there are clear written agreements in place, with clear roles and advancement opportunities in the near future, it may be a risky move with little to no payoff (or worse in the long-term). 

Just as an example, the job could be low-level IT support or code monkey position with few responsibilities that one could highlight on a CV. Together with only an online degree (which could be difficult to attain in a full-time job without any support) it may cripple further advancement. Of course, if the financial situation absolutely demands it (which is a more common reason to drop out and get an GED eventually) it may be the best move. But again, that does not seem to be the case here. 

 

 

[Raider5678]

15 hours ago, Klaynos said:

Given your answer a follow up might be something along the lines of "what process did you go through to decide your database schema?"

The database schema was decided by someone else. I was given the form that the data should be in and the server information, and then had the user enter it into a GUI which took the data, added it to the data tables, and sent it to the server. Obviously this is the simplified explanation of what I did but you seem to know what software programming is so you understand what I mean.

[zapatos]

5 hours ago, CharonY said:

The crux of the matter is that I and others sense misconceptions including the fact that GEDs are not perceived the same as a HS-diploma by employees or colleges.

Who has that misconception?

Quote

The other aspect is that the envisaged employment path does not seem to be fully fleshed out either (at least based on the description so far) and hinges on a single employer (Klayno's questions are very important for self-evaluation at this point). So the good thing is that he has been asking for input. But unless there are clear written agreements in place, with clear roles and advancement opportunities in the near future, it may be a risky move with little to no payoff (or worse in the long-term). 

I am having a hard time picturing what kind of job provides what you are suggesting. We're talking about a high school aged student who will be working his way through college. Hell, I'm starting to think about retirement and I've yet to have a job that provided clear written agreements wrt clear roles and advancement opportunities in the near future.

Quote

Just as an example, the job could be low-level IT support or code monkey position with few responsibilities that one could highlight on a CV. Together with only an online degree (which could be difficult to attain in a full-time job without any support) it may cripple further advancement. Of course, if the financial situation absolutely demands it (which is a more common reason to drop out and get an GED eventually) it may be the best move. But again, that does not seem to be the case here. 

I would have killed for a code monkey position when I was working my way through college instead of driving a truck, catering on weekends, etc.

[CharonY]

39 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Who has that misconception?

OP implied that getting a GED would be an equivalent degree, which would come with the added benefit of saved time.

39 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I would have killed for a code monkey position when I was working my way through college instead of driving a truck, catering on weekends, etc.

Sure, if you have a space in college and have the job as a gig getting through college that would be fine. However, OP proposes not to take the GPA route to get into college, and does not seem to take into calculation that they are not seen as an equivalent by many colleges. 

39 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I am having a hard time picturing what kind of job provides what you are suggesting.

Exactly, which is why foregoing the safety of a HS-diploma for maybe a year or so of shorter schooling. The overall balance of the equation simply is risky with no certainty in its payoff. I.e. GED is typically something you do because you have to, not because you chose to. Many employers will see it that way, even if some may consider it to be equal. Essentially, for hiring purposes it is important that there are no weaknesses in the CV and it seems to create an unnecessary one. OP seemed to suggest that getting out earlier may be viewed positively, but I think the consensus is that this is not going to be the case and will not outweigh the lack of a HS-diploma.

While it is correct that once a college degree is acquired, it will be moot. However, there are additional issues that OP should think about. This includes admission rules (which can be different with a GED, each school has its own way to deal with it). As an additional point, I am not sure whether OP has thought sufficiently about alternatives to an online degree (or potential disadvantages of online-only degrees). While it degrees by traditional institutions with online components are seeing more acceptance the question is whether OP might not be better off trying to get a conventional degree by utilizing other saving options. However, if no scholarship is available, it may be a good option.

[zapatos]

16 minutes ago, CharonY said:

OP implied that getting a GED would be an equivalent degree, which would come with the added benefit of saved time.

Which he later acknowledged was not equivalent.

Quote

Sure, if you have a space in college and have the job as a gig getting through college that would be fine. However, OP proposes not to take the GPA route to get into college, and does not seem to take into calculation that they are not seen as an equivalent by many colleges. 

I'm not that familiar with online colleges/degrees. Do you anticipate he will have difficulty being accepted because he has a GED?

Quote

Exactly, which is why foregoing the safety of a HS-diploma for maybe a year or so of shorter schooling. The overall balance of the equation simply is risky with no certainty in its payoff. I.e. GED is typically something you do because you have to, not because you chose to. Many employers will see it that way, even if some may consider it to be equal.

Let's say he stays in high school and gets his diploma. As far as I can tell his plan remains the same; work full time and take courses online toward a degree. Do you foresee that working full time and taking courses online is significantly more likely to happen if he has a diploma than if he has a GED?

I guess the point I am having the most difficulty with is accepting that a high school diploma has much value to someone working on a degree. He already has a job and I think the likelihood of him being accepted to an online college is a foregone conclusion.

[CharonY]

16 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I'm not that familiar with online colleges/degrees. Do you anticipate he will have difficulty being accepted because he has a GED?

Typically, you want to a have  degree of an established college that also offers online degrees. Their acceptance typically follows the same rules as as their regular degrees. Whether they distinguish between GED or a diploma varies, but from what I understand the GED typically has a different mechanism. The issue here is that GED is associated with dropping out. It is possible that some admissions officers may like it that someone tries to shortcut their time to degree, but I sincerely doubt it.

16 minutes ago, zapatos said:

He already has a job and I think the likelihood of him being accepted to an online college is a foregone conclusion.

That I do see far less clearly than you do. How safe is the job throughout his degree? Is he clear which college he wants to attend and what their requirements are? What if he does not finish his degree for some unforeseeable reasons? 

[zapatos]

14 hours ago, CharonY said:

That I do see far less clearly than you do. How safe is the job throughout his degree? Is he clear which college he wants to attend and what their requirements are? What if he does not finish his degree for some unforeseeable reasons? 

Life is not without risk, and a high school diploma guarantees you next to nothing in the job market, other than that you are qualified as a cashier. His job may not be safe throughout his degree, but I took a much larger risk. I bought a house and had children with no guarantee my job would be safe.

If he does not finish his degree for some reason, then he may have to take out the trash rather than work the cash register.

[Raider5678]

21 hours ago, CharonY said:

OP implied that getting a GED would be an equivalent degree, which would come with the added benefit of saved time.

Legally, it is. Most colleges will accept GED's instead of a high school diploma with sufficient amounts of related extra curricular activities. I've actually been invited to several colleges already(not prestigious ones like MIT, but I'm 16 so I take it as a plus) for taking summer classes, however those would all be this summer and they still wanted money for it, and they would have conflicted with the previously aforementioned activities I take part in, like national debates and things like that. 

I'm not concerned about what colleges think of me getting a GED instead of a high school diploma either, as most of the online ones have lower selection criteria due to being able to handle far more students.

Additionally, the online college I'll attend will most likely be the online University of Phoenix. Specifically, this course:

https://www.phoenix.edu/programs/degree-programs/technology/bachelors/bsit-asd.html

Additionally, talked to my employer, and they said they'd be MORE then happy to pay for this entire course.

Now, the political science one, not so much, but hey. Free college. Thanks for you advice to ask them about that.

20 hours ago, CharonY said:

Whether they distinguish between GED or a diploma varies, but from what I understand the GED typically has a different mechanism.

If you get a high enough score on the GED(around a 90%) you get a "College ready GED" or a "College ready GED + College Credits(accepted by some colleges)" depending on how high you score. Typically a good indicator of how well you know your stuff. Essentially proving you didn't pass by the skin of your teeth.

20 hours ago, CharonY said:

How safe is the job throughout his degree? Is he clear which college he wants to attend and what their requirements are? What if he does not finish his degree for some unforeseeable reasons? 

I don't know how safe it is, but considering they're willing to pay for the classes I feel like it's relatively safe.

Yes, I'm clear on which college I'd like to attend virtually.

If I don't finish my degree for unforeseeable reasons, is it really related to me getting my GED instead of my high school diploma? Ultimately, it's hard to find a good job with only a high school diploma or a GED, either way. I see a minimal disadvantage of having a GED instead of a high school diploma.

 

 

Edit: Boss sent me an email explaining that the college course would have some caveats. Mainly that I can't use that degree to work at another company in the related field of the degree for 8 years. He explained to me that's because the cost of the college is quite a bit(obviously) and it's only fair that if they're paying for my education I don't use the education to just go to a different company. He said this is standard for quite a few companies, and I've asked around to a couple of people who work at other companies and they said that it is as well. It sounds fair to me, but that being said I'm 16 and have relatively little experience in this.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Raider5678

[iNow]

Here's an analogy. Caveat: My analogies are horrible.

You're essentially asking if you can still be a painter after you intentionally cut one of your fingers off.

Sure, you can. You can get a prosthetic. You can get special brushes. You can still make great art.

But why not just paint without cutting off a finger? Why intentionally handicap yourself?

That's the bad analogy I mentioned above, but it's how I keep thinking about this thread.

 

Summarized: You're asking for us to help you rationalize an unnecessary choice.

 

41 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Edit: Boss sent me an email explaining that the college course would have some caveats. Mainly that I can't use that degree to work at another company in the related field of the degree for 8 years. He explained to me that's because the cost of the college is quite a bit(obviously) and it's only fair that if they're paying for my education I don't use the education to just go to a different company. He said this is standard for quite a few companies, and I've asked around to a couple of people who work at other companies and they said that it is as well. It sounds fair to me, but that being said I'm 16 and have relatively little experience in this.

You can ALWAYS leave the company and go work somewhere else, but you may then become financially liable and have to pay them back for the tuition assistance when you do.

Edited December 18, 2018 by iNow

[Raider5678]

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

That's the bad analogy I mentioned above, but it's how I keep thinking about this thread. You're asking for us to help you rationalize and unnecessary choice.

You're right that it's a bad analogy. Cutting your finger off offers absolutely no benefits. If I take this route I could get a bachelors degree for free. I could get a full time job that's open now, and won't be open by the time I graduate. 

3 minutes ago, iNow said:

You can ALWAYS leave the company and go work somewhere else, but you may then become financially liable and have to pay them back for the tuition assistance when you do.

So this is a typical thing then correct? Or at least not an uncommon caveat to companies offering to pay for tuition?

Edited December 18, 2018 by Raider5678

[iNow]

Just now, Raider5678 said:

Cutting your finger off offers absolutely no benefits.

Well, you'd never ever be confused for the man that kill Anigo Montoya's dad. so there's that.

[Raider5678]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

Well, you'd never ever be confused for the man that kill Anigo Montoya's dad. so there's that.

Only if I cut it off my right hand.

[iNow]

I do not think that word means what you think it means

(I'm referring, of course, to GED)  

Never start a land war in Asia...