'Stupid Woman'

[MigL]

Don't disagree with anything you've said, INow, Zapatos and Phi.
And if this thread was about sexism in society, you would be spot on for your posts.

But this thread is about whether a whispered comment was sexist or not.

So far none of you have posted anything justifying the argument that J Corbyn's comment was sexist ;
only that sexism exists ( and that belongs in another thread ).

IOW you mistakenly call my arguments 'strawmen', and I call yours 'windmills', Don Quixote.

 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, koti said:

 

You both seem to have no idea how women are favoured in family courts, children are alienated from their parents and grand parents. I have no isuue with feeling empathy towards people who experience abuse wether its a woman, man or a child. It’s a just surreal that you are disecting someone who called somebody else „a woman” while one of the fathers I knew who was in a similar situation as me is no longer with us because he hung himself NYE. He wasn’t lucky enough to have a new family like I do. 

Huh, and here I thought by saying "you have been mistreated by an unfair system" I was indicating the opposite.

[CharonY]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

So far none of you have posted anything justifying the argument that J Corbyn's comment was sexist ;
only that sexism exists ( and that belongs in another thread ).

What has been explored based on the question in OP:

Quote

...although it leads me to question:-    When did it become sexist to call a woman.....  a woman?  Also - do any of the public really care or is it just his political enemies jumping in to try to discredit him as a hypocrite? 

Whether the phrasing could be considered sexist and in which context. The assumption is that it can only be used categorically without any sexist undertones and hence, there is no way that the phrase in itself could be considered sexist. From there it was explored that there are contexts in which the specific phrasing could very well have an sexist undertone. Obviously, it would be near impossible to make a judgement based on that alone. However, the discussion has shown that there are contexts in which it may very well be perceived as such.

And in fact, Corby seems to agree. He categorically denies that he said that and added:

Quote

"I did not use the words 'stupid woman' about the Prime Minister or anyone else, and am completely opposed to the use of sexist or misogynist language in absolutely any form at all."

Thus it seems that Corby also acknowledges a misogynist undertone in that particular phrasing.

[zapatos]

27 minutes ago, MigL said:

Don't disagree with anything you've said, INow, Zapatos and Phi.
And if this thread was about sexism in society, you would be spot on for your posts.

But this thread is about whether a whispered comment was sexist or not.

So far none of you have posted anything justifying the argument that J Corbyn's comment was sexist ;
only that sexism exists ( and that belongs in another thread ).

IOW you mistakenly call my arguments 'strawmen', and I call yours 'windmills', Don Quixote.

 

You may want to read the thread again. We have been talking about many things, including whether or not the comment was sexist, the fact that sexism exists, and why we feelJ Corbyn's comment in particular was sexist, or at least could be construed as sexist.

[koti]

9 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Huh, and here I thought by saying "you have been mistreated by an unfair system" I was indicating the opposite.

It's not only about me, I'm just an example of a wide phenomena which for me in retrospect after years of a futile fight and observing countless other cases is - how the world is. Women are getting beat to death by their drunk husbands, women destroy men financially and by using kids drive them to suicide but  there is 8 pages i this thread about the Jeremy Corbins and Luis C. K's of this world - this I find surreal, seams we completely lost track of priorities. 

[iNow]

13 minutes ago, koti said:

It's not only about me, I'm just an example of a wide phenomena which for me in retrospect after years of a futile fight and observing countless other cases is - how the world is. Women are getting beat to death by their drunk husbands, women destroy men financially and by using kids drive them to suicide but  there is 8 pages i this thread about the Jeremy Corbins and Luis C. K's of this world - this I find surreal, seams we completely lost track of priorities. 

Honestly, had this thread been instead about you and your ex, it would have been far too personal and likely less engaging for the rest of us... probably too raw for you, too...

I'm sorry you had such a shit situation happen. Nobody wants that. I acknowledge the court system is often unfair to otherwise good guys like you.

I also think it's important for us to acknowledge that those are all their own topics, even though the Venn diagram has some overlap.

[koti]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

Honestly, had this thread been instead about you and your ex, it would have been far too personal and likely less engaging for the rest of us... probably too raw for you, too...

I'm sorry you had such a shit situation happen. Nobody wants that. I acknowledge the court system is often unfair to otherwise good guys like you.

I also think it's important for us to acknowledge that those are all their own topics, even though the Venn diagram has some overlap.

You don't know if I'm a "good guy" but the courts after a decade of numerous psychological evaluations does.
But you're right, lets get back onto the topic - its definitely more relaxing.

[MigL]

Well, I ( and quite a few others ) can't comment on whether it was a sexist comment or not, based on available information.
Others, who are apparently mind readers, are convinced that it was.

If you go back a few pages, you can re-read my opinion on that...
"If you go looking for sexism you'll find it, even when it may not be there."

And since we're now re-hashing old material, I'll bow out of this discussion.

[zapatos]

15 minutes ago, MigL said:

Well, I ( and quite a few others ) can't comment on whether it was a sexist comment or not, based on available information.
Others, who are apparently mind readers, are convinced that it was.

If you go back a few pages, you can re-read my opinion on that...
"If you go looking for sexism you'll find it, even when it may not be there."

And since we're now re-hashing old material, I'll bow out of this discussion.

Well, I (and quite a few others who have similar opinions to mine) can't comment on whether it was a sexist comment or not either.
Others, who are apparently mind readers, are convinced that it was NOT.

If you go back a few pages, page 1 as a matter of fact, you can re-read my opinion on that...
"I don't think we can say if it was sexist or not..." 

No one owns the high ground on this. We're all just expressing our thoughts and exploring the use of language and how it relates to sexism. A good exercise from my perspective.

[MigL]

Never hurts to discuss these things, Zap.

[iNow]

On 1/3/2019 at 5:59 PM, iNow said:

Don’t we ALL want to find ways to be better and help the women around us continue to breakdown cultural limits and inequalities?

Don’t we all agree things are still in need of improvement and that improvement often comes from discussions like this?

 

[Phi for All]

7 hours ago, MigL said:

So far none of you have posted anything justifying the argument that J Corbyn's comment was sexist ;

 I really thought the argument that Corbyn was using "woman" as a way to identify to his aide who he was talking about was very weak. I presented a better justification for it being a sexist comment, and I'm sorry you're unwilling to acknowledge that. 

I also thought you were too quick to dismiss SJ when he confirmed what other lip readers saw Corbyn say. In this instance, I think the evidence indicates Corbyn, like many men, need to stop generalizing their negative experiences with women and rethink how they treat and talk about this group of humans.

[MigL]

Don't be sorry, Phi.
All anyone has presented, is opinions ( me included ).
My point being that none of us have the FACTS to be sure one way or another.
And therefore, should not make accusations one way or the other.

[Ten oz]

@MigL you are setting a rather ridiculously high standard for opinion forming. Whether or not an individual approves or disapproves of a comment is not equal to a formal judgement in a court of law. Everyone I speak to or that over hears me speak on a daily basis form opinions about me. People who dislike things I say are under no obligation to withhold their judgement. One doesn't have to read my mind or have a list of facts on the ready to make up their own minds about how they feel.The burden of maintaining my reputation and image is on me and no one else. People do not view everything I say favorably by default. Regardless of my true intentions I must be aware of my environment and audience when opening my mouth. How I represent myself to others matters.

Making sexist comments isn't a crime and Corbyn is not facing formal charges. The legal standard for evidence doesn't apply. We all have the right to feel however we want about what was said. 

[iNow]

A great post overall, one with which I fully agree. Even though the context makes precisely clear what you’re saying, I have to imagine someone will swing by and give you myopic shit about this one tiny part, though (since he was “only whispering to his friend” after all  ):

56 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Regardless of my true intentions I must be aware of my environment and audience when opening my mouth

...you know, despite the fact that both of them were surrounded by a few scores of people and multiple cameras and microphones. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by iNow

[MigL]

So what exactly is this discussion accomplishing ?

Ten oz says everyone is allowed an opinion, but so far, opinions differ widely on whether it was a sexist comment or not.

I guess from now on, I can call DrP, Koti and String Junky a "stupid man" ( not that I would  ), and they won't be offended, but if I do the same with INow, Zapatos and Phi, they'll be offended by my sexist comment.

Should I change my behavior and use of language because of people's perceptions and sensibilities ?
Some people are offended by the slightest thing ( the ones who go looking for sexism everywhere ).
Some people are offended by nothing ( have their heads in the sand regarding the sexism issue ).
Neither extreme is viable.

And it makes meeting new people ( or anonymous forums ) a minefield.

PS
You guys are like the 'mob'.
Everytime I try to get out ( of a discussion ), you keep pulling me back in.

Edited January 5, 2019 by MigL

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, MigL said:

So what exactly is this discussion accomplishing ?

changing our biased perceptions for the better?

[Ten oz]

7 minutes ago, MigL said:

Should I change my behavior and use of language because of people's perceptions and sensibilities ?

I think everyone already does. You state this as though it would be unusual or new. For example I seriously doubt you behave and speak the same way around co-workers as you do family members. 

11 minutes ago, MigL said:

Some people are offended by the slightest thing ( the ones who go looking for sexism everywhere ).
Some people are offended by nothing ( have their heads in the sand regarding the sexism issue ).
Neither extreme is viable.

Yes, individuals are different. 

12 minutes ago, MigL said:

And it makes meeting new people ( or anonymous forums ) a minefield.

Perhaps for you. I personally do not find it complicated. Per my career I relocate often. I have lived in several different geographical locations throughout the U.S. and will actually be moving to Puerto Rico this summer. Meeting new people and making friends hasn't been difficult. 

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

So what exactly is this discussion accomplishing ?

It is giving the participants a better understanding of the views and perceptions of others, and the impact of language on people. This in turn may result in benefits to us and others.

Quote

Should I change my behavior and use of language because of people's perceptions and sensibilities ?

You should be knowledgeable of the impact your language has on people's perception and sensibilities, and the impact their response may have on you.

Whether or not you change your behavior or use of language is completely up to you.

Personally, I regularly change my behavior and use of language depending on the audience. I find it polite to do so. Why would I use an offensive term in front of someone who I know might be offended when I can modify my language and not offend them? It is easy enough to substitute the phrase "what the hell?" for "what the fuck" if I am in the presence of my aunt and not my friends.

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

changing our biased perceptions for the better?

Wait a minute. Are you actually implying that hearing how others think and feel might actually impact our own psychology? Huh, what a unique idea (sarcasm). At the very least hearing others out might help navigate the minefield MigL referenced. 

[MigL]

What if your aunt employed a lip-reader to catch you saying "what the f*ck" instead of "what the h*ll', Zapatos ?
Should she be offended ?
And should it be in the news for days that you are a horrible ,sexist person ?

Of course, everyone changes their behavior when they are aware of their audience.
How about when your audience is 'new', anonymous or you're not aware you have an audience ?

Edited January 5, 2019 by MigL

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

Should she be offended ?

That would be up to her wouldn't it? Who is Zap to say what his Aunt should or shouldn't be offended by? 

[dimreepr]

12 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Wait a minute. Are you actually implying that hearing how others think and feel might actually impact our own psychology? Huh, what a unique idea (sarcasm). At the very least hearing others out might help navigate the minefield MigL referenced. 

 

Wtf is your problem?

[zapatos]

6 minutes ago, MigL said:

What if your aunt employed a lip-reader to catch you saying "what the f*ck" instead of "what the h*ll', Zapatos ?
Should she be offended ?

I'm not here to tell people if they "should" or "should not" be offended. People react the way they do. I have no control over that.

I can only hope that just as I make an effort to not offend others, that they make an effort to not be offended. For example, I'll try not to use 'woman' as part of an insult, and hopefully they'll see that if I do use "woman" as part of an insult that there is a difference between saying it in a speech, and saying it under my breath to the person standing next to me.

Quote

And should it be in the news for days that you are a horrible ,sexist person ?

Depends. Shouldn't be in the news if it's me, because I'm nobody. If I'm the Pope and say "what the fuck?" though, then yes, it's worth being in the news for a while.

Quote

Of course, everyone changes their behavior when they are aware of their audience.
How about when your audience is 'new', anonymous or you're not aware you have an audience ?

If I have no audience then I can say what I want.

If my audience is 'new' then I will be on my best behavior.

If I am in a room full of cameras and microphones I will try not to be naive enough to think that no one will know what I say.

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Wtf is your problem?

I was being sarcastic. I was agreeing with your post.