'Stupid Woman'

[iNow]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I do this all the time.

And that's your prerogative, but I'd encourage you to stop. If you bumped into me in the supermarket, saying, "I'm sorry you can't keep your leg out of my way" is hardly a way to heal the offense you've caused.

[MigL]

Again Zap, we all agree that offending anyone should be avoided, and I'm sure everyone here will modify their language to avoid it.
But is the comment sexist ?
Everyone seems to forget that the purpose of calling someone 'stupid' IS to be offensive.
The 'woman' part of the original comment being simply an identifier in the already offensive comment.

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, iNow said:

And that's your prerogative, but I'd encourage you to stop. If you bumped into me in the supermarket, saying, "I'm sorry you can't keep your leg out of my way" is hardly a way to heal the offense you've caused.

I don't do that.

I'm from Canada, 99% of the time we both say the same thing. It's simply being courteous. I believe it is less common in the States.

[iNow]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I don't do that.

 

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I would tell them I was sorry they felt offended

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, iNow said:

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

"I'm sorry you can't keep your leg out of my way"

I don't do that.

[MigL]

Read the posts INow.
The example you gave is totally different from JCM's.

You seem to read a lot of extra, or non-existent information into other people's posts.
That's offensive.
Maybe you should apologize instead of the eye roll.

[J.C.MacSwell]

You might be surprised how much it is appreciated. I get every bit as good a reaction to it in the US, as I do in Canada. Even if it is not reciprocated and/or someone believes it absolves them of any blame I usually don't care.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by J.C.MacSwell

[iNow]

These threads with you guys are getting silly.

JCM made a non-apology. I linked sharing a description of what that is. He said he does this all the time and offered a different example that clearly wasn't a non-apology apology like the first one. I corrected it to make the point clear. Now you're telling me I don't read.

Let's just stop for a while, join one another for a meal... tuck in a bit and share a few laughs, shall we?

[Ten oz]

59 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

If for instance it was a male complaining that women should lift as much as men? Or a woman complaining that she felt no one should lift more than anyone else, despite there being obvious discrepancies in lifting capability ?

In every environment I have worked people are not encourage to lift anything alone. The liability of someone getting hurt outways the potential benefit. So in my experience when I oversee projects that involve physicality I assign spotters, safety personnel, and outline equipment (Jack's, chain falls, carts, etc) to be used. Otherwise I am opening myself up to criticism if someone gets hurt. 

I am not avoiding your question it is just too hypothetical for me. I can't relate to it. 

 

[zapatos]

29 minutes ago, MigL said:

Again Zap, we all agree that offending anyone should be avoided, and I'm sure everyone here will modify their language to avoid it.
But is the comment sexist ?
Everyone seems to forget that the purpose of calling someone 'stupid' IS to be offensive.
The 'woman' part of the original comment being simply an identifier in the already offensive comment.

You keep seeking a definitive answer to that question but I'm afraid you'll never find it.

Some people find it sexist, and they have valid reasons to think so.

Some people don't find it sexist, and they also have valid reasons.

To add to the murkiness, some people who think it is sexist won't take offense if the intent to offend wasn't there, while others will take offense regardless.

You seem to fall pretty clearly in the camp of not finding it sexist (it is "simply an identifier"), whereas I think the historical use of demeaning language against women puts this phrase clearly in the category of "AVOID ITS USE".

That is the information we have to work with. If you are hard core about modifying your language to avoid offense then you will not use that phrase. If for whatever reason you accept that you may unintentionally offend (or intentionally as the case may be), then you will use that phrase. Or you may use it sometimes but not others.

I suspect we all pretty much agree to the above (and you'll tell me if I'm wrong). This thread seems to be primarily about each of us trying to get the others to shift slightly in our respective directions on how we view this particular language.

[J.C.MacSwell]

6 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

In every environment I have worked people are not encourage to lift anything alone. The liability of someone getting hurt outways the potential benefit. So in my experience when I oversee projects that involve physicality I assign spotters, safety personnel, and outline equipment (Jack's, chain falls, carts, etc) to be used. Otherwise I am opening myself up to criticism if someone gets hurt. 

I am not avoiding your question it is just too hypothetical for me. I can't relate to it. 

 

Have you worked on a construction site? A shipyard? Lumberyard? These places are constantly requiring assessment of individual or paired lifts. Sometimes, but less often, team lifts.

How much can you carry? If I take this and that, can you take the rest? Or should we make two trips?

If I get this end and you get that one, is that OK? Should we get the forklift?

There are guidelines and techniques for personal lifts. We always stress they are guidelines and to err on the safe side. You best do this by understanding that not everyone is equal. Sex being one of many factors.

[Ten oz]

31 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Have you worked on a construction site? A shipyard? Lumberyard? These places are constantly requiring assessment of individual or paired lifts. Sometimes, but less often, team lifts.

I am an Engineer and I have worked in many Shipyards as a matter of fact. I have also worked underway on a few ships. I will be working on a Ship out of Puerto Rico starting this summer.

For safety reasons people are not encourage to lift things they are not comfortable lifting and there is a variety of equipment available to assist with moving heavy stuff. The "Get'er done" attitude only leads to people getting hurt. 

I get the impression that perhaps (correct me if I am wrong) you have not worked in such environments or perhaps only at amateur levels . An injury slows things down and costs money. "Fast is slow and slow is fast" is a common saying where I work. It is a take on the Marine Corps "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". 

Both the men and women I work with are expected to know best practices and follow all safety procedures. 

[beecee]

My apologies for again butting into this engrossing debate.......

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Everyone seems to forget that the purpose of calling someone 'stupid' IS to be offensive.

Agreed, though sometimes a realistic observation.

Quote

The 'woman' part of the original comment being simply an identifier in the already offensive comment.

Again agreed.

37 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Some people find it sexist, and they have valid reasons to think so.

Some people don't find it sexist, and they also have valid reasons.

Yep, times change as do expectations of what is acceptable or what isn't.

But my main reason for butting in, is that what was said, "stupid woman" was said under a person's breath, and it was the technology of the day that caught him out. We most certainly cannot curtail what anyone of us think, and all of us, yes all of us, have at times had "offensive" thoughts of others...havn't we?

[zapatos]

3 minutes ago, beecee said:

But my main reason for butting in, is that what was said, "stupid woman" was said under a person's breath, and it was the technology of the day that caught him out. We most certainly cannot curtail what anyone of us think, and all of us, yes all of us, have at times had "offensive" thoughts of others...havn't we?

Of course. I don't think anyone is suggesting anything else.

[J.C.MacSwell]

36 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I am an Engineer and I have worked in many Shipyards as a matter of fact. I have also worked underway on a few ships. I will be working on a Ship out of Puerto Rico starting this summer.

For safety reasons people are not encourage to lift things they are not comfortable lifting and there is a variety of equipment available to assist with moving heavy stuff. The "Get'er done" attitude only leads to people getting hurt. 

I get the impression that perhaps (correct me if I am wrong) you have not worked in such environments or perhaps only at amateur levels . An injury slows things down and costs money. "Fast is slow and slow is fast" is a common saying where I work. It is a take on the Marine Corps "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". 

Both the men and women I work with are expected to know best practices and follow all safety procedures. 

Roughly 25% of our work is at Shipyards/Dockyards. Another 10% on construction sites. Personally it would be a little higher.

We are now saying the same thing with regard to lifts (you weren't earlier). With respect to comfort levels and the topic, would you expect the average woman to lift the same as the average man?

Would it be safe to assume they were, on average, equal? Or do you totally exclude that consideration in your judgement?

Stated another way, are you willing to ignore objective evidence in your pursuit of what you see as equality.

Edited January 23, 2019 by J.C.MacSwell

[MigL]

No way am I coming to Iowa to share a meal, INow.
Really ?
Iowa ?

[Ten oz]

26 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

We are now saying the same ting with regard to lifts. With respect to comfort levels and the topic, would you expect the average woman to lift the same as the average man?

I think on some level this is a bit of a contrivance. You are trying to imply that men are naturally stronger and therefore may potentially have some advantage over a woman in certain career fields and asking a hypothetical about what would happen if a woman may objected to it. Not all men are stronger than all women and you're ignoring experience, skill, education, and etc.

In my opinion any welder, electrician, or so on who needs to muscle a project is doing something wrong. I would rather work with a skinny & weak electrician who knows what they are doing than a big and strong one who doesn't. I have never found myself wishing the people working with me or for me were stronger. Strength of individual personnel has never been a limiting factor for me at work. Size overall has been limiting factor before. I have been is situations where I was too large to comfortably/safely fit between or behind pieces of equipment to inspect or complete work. For electrical and electronic work in particular small hands can make a project easier.

On average across a individual ethnic population a female would have smaller hands but here in North America we don't live in isolated ethnic populations. The average woman in the Netherlands is larger than the average male in India for example. Depending on one's genetics they may be bigger or smaller. These aren't things which should change how one is treated. 

Anyway I will let you have the last word on this as I fail to see what difference how much a man vs a woman can lift makes with regards to using language which offends people. 

[MigL]

OK, I work with compressed ( liquified ) Phosphine.
Firefighting is part of my skill set.

Fortunately I've only ever had to drag a 150 lbs 'dummy' ( no, not a dumb person ) to safety, wearing full bunker gear and SCBA supplied breathing air, in thick, white Phosphorous Pentoxide fumes ( or total darkness ), on my knees (no visibility ), on metal grating floors or up/down metal stairs.

I work with several women, that I have the greatest respect for, but I really don't think any one of them ( and possibly some of the guys also ) are getting a 200 lbs person out of harm's way, if the situation arose.

Are we now just discussing our jobs, because I don't see what this has to do with words being 'sexist' ?

[J.C.MacSwell]

48 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I think on some level this is a bit of a contrivance. You are trying to imply that men are naturally stronger and therefore may potentially have some advantage over a woman in certain career fields and asking a hypothetical about what would happen if a woman may objected to it. Not all men are stronger than all women and you're ignoring experience, skill, education, and etc.

In my opinion any welder, electrician, or so on who needs to muscle a project is doing something wrong. I would rather work with a skinny & weak electrician who knows what they are doing than a big and strong one who doesn't. I have never found myself wishing the people working with me or for me were stronger. Strength of individual personnel has never been a limiting factor for me at work. Size overall has been limiting factor before. I have been is situations where I was too large to comfortably/safely fit between or behind pieces of equipment to inspect or complete work. For electrical and electronic work in particular small hands can make a project easier.

On average across a individual ethnic population a female would have smaller hands but here in North America we don't live in isolated ethnic populations. The average woman in the Netherlands is larger than the average male in India for example. Depending on one's genetics they may be bigger or smaller. These aren't things which should change how one is treated. 

Anyway I will let you have the last word on this as I fail to see what difference how much a man vs a woman can lift makes with regards to using language which offends people. 

It comes down to this: Accepting objective truths does not make you sexist. Nor does denying them...it just makes your judgement weaker...and it makes you wrong.

[Ten oz]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

It comes down to this: Accepting objective truths does not make you sexist. Nor does denying them...it just makes your judgement weaker...and it makes you wrong.

When interacting with individuals objective truths about the average man or woman doesn't really matter. It is best to focus on them individually. It is an objective truth that most people in North America are Christian but that doesn't mean one should assume anything. Religion is a sensitive subject and people will get offended.

I am sorry I failed to give you the last word. Your last post clarrifed your position better for so I felt should respond. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

When interacting with individuals objective truths about the average man or woman doesn't really matter. It is best to focus on them individually. It is an objective truth that most people in North America are Christian but that doesn't mean one should assume anything. Religion is a sensitive subject and people will get offended.

I am sorry I failed to give you the last word. Your last post clarrifed your position better for so I felt should respond. 

Can that not include their sex?

[Ten oz]

44 minutes ago, MigL said:

Are we now just discussing our jobs, because I don't see what this has to do with words being 'sexist' ?

I think J.C.'s last post put our side discuss back on track. 

Just now, J.C.MacSwell said:

Can that not include their sex?

If it absolutely matters gender specifically. I don't think it matters absolutely does with regards to strength as some women are stronger than men. One shouldn't be using averages to make individual determinations about individuals. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 

 I don't think it matters absolutely does with regards to strength as some women are stronger than men. One shouldn't be using averages to make individual determinations about individuals. 

I can agree with that.

[iNow]

Now that that's settled:

[Raider5678]

46 minutes ago, iNow said:

Now that that's settled:

Since your photo didn't include a fedora, I'll include one for you:

Edited January 23, 2019 by Raider5678