http://www.icr.org/

[JPQuiceno]

http://www.icr.org/

 

I as an atheist have seen this website and heard a lot about this institue.

 

Supposedly, I heard they have some "scientist" that have Ph.D's in biology.

 

Now, the thing is, (me not being an expert in biology) I have heard from a close and reliable friend, that evolution is a foundation of Biology. Now if this is true, then how the heck does a "christion" become a biologist and try to disprove us using what he learned in biology, if its foundation is evolution?

 

Please answer. Thanks.

[swansont]

Don't underestimate the power of true belief. It can blind you to facts that are obvious to others. These people have an agenda, and let ideology drive what little science they do - all answers are interpreted through a particular filter, and undesirable facts are simply discarded. Intellectual dishonesty festers.

[ydoaPs]

Don't underestimate the power of true belief. It can blind you to facts that are obvious to others. These people have an agenda, and let ideology drive what little science they do - all answers are interpreted through a particular filter, and undesirable facts are simply discarded. Intellectual dishonesty festers.

take herme3 for example.

[Hellbender]

Now, the thing is, (me not being an expert in biology) I have heard from a close and reliable friend, that evolution is a foundation of Biology.

Its certainly a fundamental, alongside genetics, and is important to know about to fully understand biology. If this said creationist (I know a Duane Gish is the indefatiguable leader of icr, so maybe you mean him) is indeed an accredited biologist, then he probably did have to take evolutionary biology in college. He simply thought, "well it was..all a LIE! yeah, thats the ticket" and was done with it. But many creationists that claim to be "experts" either have unaccredited diplomas, or have PhD's in non-biology subjects.

Now if this is true, then how the heck does a "christion" become a biologist and try to disprove us using what he learned in biology, if its foundation is evolution?

Intellectual dishonesty. Simple as that. For some irrational reason, evolution offends some religious people so they try to persuade the public that biological evolution theory is a "lie" or a "religion", and attempt to find problems or things evolution doesn't explain, and then proclaim that evolution is therefore false.They then "logically" conclude that biblical creation stories should be taught in public schools instead.

[Anjruu]

Calling it dishonesty is a bit harsh. They honestly believe what they do, however wrong we think them, so lets try and be a bit understanding, shall we? Open-minded and all... But perhaps not too open-minded, eh hellbender?

[Hellbender]

Calling it dishonesty is a bit harsh.

No, its a bit accurate. I have seen it written here by more verbose members than myself; you are entitled to your own beliefs, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

They honestly believe what they do, however wrong we think them, so lets try and be a bit understanding, shall we?

They can believe whatever they want. But attempting to pass of religious beliefs as science is dishonest and wrong, not to mention the underhanded tactics they use.

Open-minded and all... But perhaps not too open-minded, eh hellbender?

Exactly. Being open-minded does not mean considering every side of the story, no matter how illogical one side may be. Science is not a democratic process, I'm sorry to say.

[JPQuiceno]

Dammit hellbender! I wish I would of said that to my creationist friend!

 

He always says that I don't look at both sides of the story, and that im being brainwashed by evil scientist who fornicate, dont love god, and rip babies arms off and murder.

 

Then I tell him, that facts are facts, which science provide, I have no need to look at fairy tales!

 

He still blabbers on. Im going to tell him that whole "democratic process" thing next time. Thanks!

[Hellbender]

He still blabbers on. Im going to tell him that whole "democratic process" thing next time. Thanks!

I doubt he will listen. Once his pastor in church tells him something, nothing will get through to him or change his mind. But it can't hurt to try.

[ydoaPs]

i don't teach creationism in my church

[JPQuiceno]

Dude, seriously. I swear on my life. I used to be a christian boy growing up. Most of my family is christian. I am only 16, but I belive I am very mature, and have a pretty good understanding of sciences/life/religion.

 

I have had multiple VERBAL FIGHTS with my mother particulary, where she says that I shouldnt dare say god doenst exist, and that one day, every knee will bow, and that I will say that she was right.

 

I WOULD GIVE ANYTHING, I MEAN ANYTHING, TO FREE MY FAMILY FROM THIS RELIGIOUS MIND PRISON AND WAY OF THINKING.

 

I am currently working on a book/manual on how to get friends and close relatives to realize that religion isnt true. Im trying to do it through many ways.

 

Scienctific proofs.

Physcology.

Contradictions in the bible.

 

Im using this book as a guideline to help me.

 

http://www.ffrf.org/shop/books/details.php?cat=fbooks&ID=FB5

 

I know I cant reach all of them, and I cant liberate them all, because some wont give up.

 

But as long as I can ahieve the following, I will be happy:

 

The realize the scientific proofs, contradictions. If they still say that im full of shit, then I know there is no hope, and that they are lying to themselves.

 

Again, Heres the book im using as a guidline:

 

http://www.ffrf.org/shop/books/details.php?cat=fbooks&ID=FB5

 

It was a preacher who did missions for like 15 years and turned atheist. Good Stuff.

 

It even has some excerpts from the book!

 

P.S: if anyone is interested in helping me in my project, let me know. Thanks.

[swansont]

Calling it dishonesty is a bit harsh. They honestly believe what they do, however wrong we think them, so lets try and be a bit understanding, shall we? Open-minded and all... But perhaps not too open-minded, eh hellbender?

 

Harsh or not, it's an accurate description. Creationists perpetuate lies. Either they haven't checked on the information to see if it's accurate, which is intellectually dishonest, or they know it's a lie and pass it along anyway, which is just plain dishonest.

 

If they want to deceive themselves, that's fine with me. But they want to put their beliefs in the science classroom and crowd out legitimate science, and I have a problem with that.

[atinymonkey]

I WOULD GIVE ANYTHING' date=' I MEAN ANYTHING, TO FREE MY FAMILY FROM THIS RELIGIOUS MIND PRISON AND WAY OF THINKING.[/quote']

You cannot force people to think in a way that pleases you. You have to accept that some people will always disagree.

[the tree]

I am currently working on a book/manual on how to get friends and close relatives to realize that religion isnt true. Im trying to do it through many ways.

 

Scienctific proofs.

Physcology.

Contradictions in the bible

There is absolutely no scientific evidence for atheism' date=' let alone proof.

 

Of course there is plenty of logical, observational, scientific and historical support for the theory of evolution.

 

Please [b']do not[/b] confuse creationism with theism:

• Theism is a religious belief that science really has nothing to do with.
  
• Creationism is a rejection of science.

Religion and science can co-exist they are not mutually exclusive.

[swansont]

I WOULD GIVE ANYTHING' date=' I MEAN ANYTHING, TO FREE MY FAMILY FROM THIS RELIGIOUS MIND PRISON AND WAY OF THINKING.

[/quote']

 

 

You can't use logic and reason to dissuade someone from a viewpoint that was not arrived at using logic and reason.

[JPQuiceno]

You cannot force people to think in a way that pleases you. You have to accept that some people will always disagree.

 

I was not trying to "force" anyone. I was trying to show them through science, biblical contradictions, how god does not exist, and how there beloved book is erroneous, therefore crumbling their beliefs in a god.

[JPQuiceno]

There is absolutely no scientific evidence for atheism' date=' let alone proof.

 

Of course there is plenty of logical, observational, scientific and historical support for the theory of evolution.

 

Please [b']do not[/b] confuse creationism with theism:

• Theism is a religious belief that science really has nothing to do with.
  
• Creationism is a rejection of science.

Religion and science can co-exist they are not mutually exclusive.

 

A sad thing is, that many theist, aka many christians, are creationist. Wether it be called science or not, they still like to argue. My father being one.

 

I am not mixing the two, rather the people who are theist are. And in order to be a creationist, you MUST be a theist.

 

Therfore, if I can show my father in particular, that the bible that he bases he beliefs on, and the bible that he *trys* to reconciliate with scince are eroneuos, he will either do one of the following: recognize that his religion (CHRISITANITY) is erroneous and based of a erroneous book. And creationism, based on his religion, is indeed false and completley goes against science.

[Anjruu]

Well, **** all you all, you say that the world is round? You perpetuate lies! You say that gravity is an attracting force between two masses, versus a warping of spacetime?? You perpetuate lies!! You say that gases are made out of tiny particles, whose pressure, volume, temperature and number of particles vary in various ways with each other??? You perpetuate lies!!!

 

Basically, science, as a general rule, has held a paradigm, some person overthrows that paradigm, is mocked and ridiculed, dies, another person finds out he or shows right, and names some law after person A. While creationism, I agree, is flat out wrong, and religion is certainly a tool, some version of god may or may not have "sparked" the big bang. Its not that we don't know, we can't even begin to think about it yet, with our level of understanding.

 

If you make fun of people who believe in creationism, then you close you mind to other, perhaps more rational ideas that may come up. Also, sad to say, we're in the minority now. We can continue to actively fight, or we can calmly wait for logic to win. The harder someone pushes against closely held, illogical ides, the more strongly those ideas are held, and then we lose.

[Bettina]

Well, **** all you all

 

Does it make you seem more important when you do this? It doesn't really.

 

I WOULD GIVE ANYTHING' date=' I MEAN ANYTHING, TO FREE MY FAMILY FROM THIS RELIGIOUS MIND PRISON AND WAY OF THINKING.

[/quote']

 

Why do you want to? What harm is it in them believing in god. I am an agnostic, but my dad isn't, and I have a lot of religious friends that are just as good as I am. I am just curious why your so hard on them.

 

Bettina

[JPQuiceno]

Does it make you seem more important when you do this? It doesn't really.

 

 

 

Why do you want to? What harm is it in them believing in god. I am an agnostic' date=' but my dad isn't, and I have a lot of religious friends that are just as good as I am. I am just curious why your so hard on them.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

I'm sorry to "burst your bubble" Bettina, but all the religous people in the world arent so passive and open minded as your friends.

 

Why am I so hard on them? Let me give you a list of reasons why (some might be silly, but true neverthe less)

 

1. Religion closes minds. Most of my family is from columbia, dont know SQUAT about science, and believe anything there pastor says. When I was about 5 years old, (we were kinda poor, since we were new to the usa), my father had worked VERY VERY hard to get me a super nintendo. He spent about $300 dollars on it. Then, my grandmother, the jesus lover, and christ converter of our family, that had converted my mother, said that one of her pastors gave a ceremony, on how nintendo is the devil, and the games teach withcraft, and that the devil speaks to kids to light houses on fire. My mother ended up throwing my nintendo in a fire to burn all things from the devil at her church. People brought picutres of the virgin mary, tupac cds, rock cds, pornography, books about evolution (INCREDIBLE!). Im not making this up and it was a living hell for me.

 

2. When younger, I couldnt particpate in many activites that my friends were in. Holloween was a day were the devil accepeted sacrifices from people that kidnapped babies and ate the. Instead I had to go to church and watch them talk about jesus.

 

3. My family is ALWAYS getting into arguements over religous matters. My uncle for example, drinks as a social drinker. He was criticized saying that alchol is the entracne of the devil in your life.

 

4. When I first lost my virginity, my mother found out by hearing me talking to my girlfriend over the phone. She went crazy and my father and her talked to me about how jesus doesnt want sex before marriage. I proceeded to ask why, but all she said was because god said so.

 

5.Religion closes the mind of people. If I ever bring something up scientific at family reuninons, they think im some "new age" crystal worshipping "medititing" yoga master.

 

6.I can't spend and talk with my family the way a normal person does. They always end up saying something about how god doesnt like MMORPGS because they have the devil, or how action movies provoke sin. WTF?

 

It makes me incredibly ANGRY AND WANT TO KILL WHO INVENTED THIS RELIGION PIECE OF SHIT, that has ruined my realationshio with my family.

 

Remeber, this is only the social/moral part of what religion can do, scientificly, politcaly, and in speaking of wars, the damages are INCREDIBLE.

 

Thats why I press so hard and wish my family was free from the religious prison of mind.

[LucidDreamer]

Let me just post a quote that I got strait off of the http://www.IRC.org homepage:

We believe God has raised up ICR to spearhead Biblical Christianity's defense against the godless and compromising dogma of evolutionary humanism. Only by showing the scientific bankruptcy of evolution, while exalting Christ and the Bible, will Christians be successful in “the pulling down of strongholds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (II Corinthians 10:4,5).

Creationism has nothing to do with science, despite all of the pretense. It's about dispareging evolution because they believe it compromises their belief system. After all, when was the last time you saw a biblical quote in a scientific journal?

[Anjruu]

That was sarcasm, Bettina. As seen in the rest of the paragraph. It was supposed to make that section of the argument less important.

 

"Religion closes minds." While certainly true, so does anything taken to the extreme. And believing that Halloween is the devil's work is definitely extreme.

 

I'm not saying creationism has anything to do with Science. However, neither does unnecessary strife.

 

Hellbender, what do you mean science is not a democratic process? Of course it is! Everyone who is qualified to chip in does so, and the "law" is changed, or not, according to the results. People offer evidence both ways, and we move from there. What would have been more accurate is to say is that creationism's arguments have been weighed against evolution, and evolution has won, at least in the scientific community.

.

[JPQuiceno]

Oops wrong post

[JPQuiceno]

It so sad. I've heard of colleges that are christian handing out PHD's in biology, when they are against evolution! Ridiculous!

[Mokele]

Hellbender, what do you mean science is not a democratic process? Of course it is! Everyone who is qualified to chip in does so, and the "law" is changed, or not, according to the results. People offer evidence both ways, and we move from there. What would have been more accurate is to say is that creationism's arguments have been weighed against evolution, and evolution has won, at least in the scientific community.

 

But that's not democratic. Science as a democratic process would mean that everyone would figure out which side they supported, and vote, and the one with the greatest number of ahderents would win, based on that, not on evidence. Instead, it's as you describe above, where the *evidence* (not # of people) is weighed. Unfortunately, I don't know if there actually is a term for that method, other than 'sensible'.

 

Mokele