The Border Wall or Fence

[iNow]

1 minute ago, MigL said:

Where have I, or JCM ever blamed or assigned fault to Democrats.

You first. Where have I called either of you out by name? I’ll wait...

[MigL]

Your post...
"Yet that’s precisely what’s happening here when posters keep saying Democrats are the ones responsible"

your turn.

edit:
And if Ten oz and others wanna play this game too, I can quote them also.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2019 by MigL

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Where have I, or JCM ever blamed or assigned fault to Democrats.
We are Canadian. We expect our government to work.
Maybe Americans have different expectations, and expect their government to fight their ideological battles for them.

You guys don't seem to read posts by others ( I don't even know what Rangerx is reading ), but you keep repeating the same things over again.
And nothing gets resolved.

If you're happy with that, no government, and 800000 of your countrymen going without pay, then, great.
But if you think there's a problem that needs resolving, then you should consider all options.
( cause you know D Trump won't solve anything )

I have provided real numbers. I've linked DHS budget from DHS's official website as signed by Trump's cabinet member Kristjen Nielsen. It is detailed and I recommend you consider reviewing it. Neither you or J.C. seem will to delve into the real numbers. You both seem hung up on ensuring blame for the currently situation be evenly spread. Yet any solution will require real money, real allocations of resources, real personnel, and etc. There is no middle ground between a real plan and no plan. 

[rangerx]

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

But if you think there's a problem that needs resolving, then you should consider all options.

( cause you know D Trump won't solve anything )

Trump is supposed to be the leader. Where does the buck stop with him?

Nowhere by that logic.

[MigL]

"You both seem hung up on ensuring blame for the currently situation be evenly spread"

Well, I guess Ten oz wants to play too, INow.

[J.C.MacSwell]

I

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

I have provided real numbers. I've linked DHS budget from DHS's official website as signed by Trump's cabinet member Kristjen Nielsen. It is detailed and I recommend you consider reviewing it. Neither you or J.C. seem will to delve into the real numbers. You both seem hung up on ensuring blame for the currently situation be evenly spread. Yet any solution will require real money, real allocations of resources, real personnel, and etc. There is no middle ground between a real plan and no plan. 

Where have either of us even suggested that's the case? 

3 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Trump is supposed to be the leader. Where does the buck stop with him?

Nowhere by that logic.

 I think that's correct. Both the assumption and the logic.

[MigL]

Your reply is in no way a rebuttal of what I posted Ten oz, so why quote it.
I guess you are happy with the situation and will wait D Trump out.
You'll show him.

Good luck with that.

[Ten oz]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

"You both seem hung up on ensuring blame for the currently situation be evenly spread"

Well, I guess Ten oz wants to play too, INow.

How about you address some of the specifics in this thread for a change of pace. The topic here is about a Border Wall or Fence and thus far you don't seem willing (or perhaps able) to discuss the actual policies and proposals in place. 

You have access to DHS's budget. So you can review what our border agencies are currently spending money on and looking to develop moving forward. How about we all stay on topic here and discuss that?  

5 minutes ago, MigL said:

Your reply is in no way a rebuttal of what I posted Ten oz, so why quote it.
I guess you are happy with the situation and will wait D Trump out.
You'll show him.

Good luck with that.

What's is the alternative? Please, let's actual discuss the logistics here. What is Trump's plan and how can Democrats work to resolve this situation?

[iNow]

22 minutes ago, MigL said:

Your post...
"Yet that’s precisely what’s happening here when posters keep saying Democrats are the ones responsible"

your turn.

edit:
And if Ten oz and others wanna play this game too, I can quote them also.

Sorry. Still confused. Trying to see things from your perspective. I said “posters,” not MigL or JCMacSwell. What are you seeing that I’m not?

[J.C.MacSwell]

30 minutes ago, iNow said:

Please feel free to open a new thread exploring these quote unquote leftist tactics, but for here in this particular thread it would be much appreciated if you could please stop attacking posters as individuals, focus on the actual arguments being made, and cease from inserting unnecessary and unhelpful tribal divisions and generalizations into your posts. 

I was replying to a personal attack, in exactly the same manner as the attack, while being careful not to state anything misleading.

You might ask yourself why you question one and not the other.

[Ten oz]

12 minutes ago, iNow said:

Sorry. Still confused. Trying to see things from your perspective. I said “posters,” not MigL or JCMacSwell. What are you seeing that I’m not?

It is just an Ad Hominem approach. Rather than address the thread's topic head on MigL is challenging individual posters over off topic issues of style and language. If you had singled MigL out specifically, which you did not, it wouldn't make any difference towards the threads topic. 

Question for you. Trump is denying that he is willing to consider full amnesty for those under DACA protection.  Of course a Trump denial means nothing. If Trump would give full amnesty do you think Democrats should cut the deal? I think it might be worth doing. Trump has no plan for the wall anyway. Even if Congress appropriates 5.7 billion for wall spending the details will still need to be hashed out over the next couples years anyway. 

9 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I was replying to a personal attack, in exactly the same manner as the attack, while being careful not to state anything misleading.

You might ask yourself why you question one and not the other.

Are you denying posting arguments that both sides share some blame for the shutdown? Can we get back on topic. You mentioned that you'd search to see if you could find details for Trump's plan. Did you and if so what did you find? 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Ten oz

[rangerx]

8 minutes ago, MigL said:

I guess you are happy with the situation and will wait D Trump out.
You'll show him.

Good luck with that.

Mig, I understand your frustration. I really do. I will give credit where credit is due, understanding that Trump is a dipshit, 800,000 government employees are pawns and a wall is a stupid idea.

That said, your concern for children analogy seems to extend only to immediate families even though I'm sure you'd treat a starving child as one of your own of you were put in that situation.

So why so perplexed? Sorry man, but your ideology is over-ruling your better judgement, imho.

My concern is the democracy itself being hijacked by a tyrant's agenda. I will dare say that if Obama or Trudeau played that angle you'd be screaming from the rooftops.

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

If Trump would give full amnesty do you think Democrats should cut the deal? I think it might be worth doing.

It’s a good question. I certainly wouldn’t reject it outright, but would want to see the actual details before deciding one way or the other whether I personally support it. My concern is the same you proactively called out, namely the history here of bait and switch tactics. I like to think I’m not some Charlie Brown always trying to kick the ball that Lucy keeps moving just as I get there. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

 

Are you denying posting arguments that both sides share some blame for the shutdown? 

I don't think I have made any statements blaming the Democrats, or Republicans. I certainly have with regard to Trump.

I have questioned all three, mostly the Democrats and Trump as I see that as to where the impasse will most likely be broken.

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Question for you. Trump is denying that he is willing to consider full amnesty for those under DACA protection.  Of course a Trump denial means nothing. If Trump would give full amnesty do you think Democrats should cut the deal? I think it might be worth doing. Trump has no plan for the wall anyway. Even if Congress appropriates 5.7 billion for wall spending the details will still need to be hashed out over the next couples years anyway. 

That would be a nice way to break it.

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s a good question. I certainly wouldn’t reject it outright, but would want to see the actual details before deciding one way or the other whether I personally support it. My concern is the same you proactively called out, namely the history here of bait and switch tactics. I like to think I’m not some Charlie Brown always trying to kick the ball that Lucy keeps moving just as I get there. 

Trump's exact statement was “No, Amnesty is not a part of my offer. It is a 3-year extension of DACA. Amnesty will be used only on a much bigger deal, whether on immigration or something else,” on Twitter. So the door was left open. Considering Trump has repeated referenced drugs as part of the "crisis" at the boarder there might be a play where money can be given to combat the opioid crisis. That could be sold as as part of a bigger deal and is someone all sides want. I guess we'll have to wait and see. 

[Airbrush]

After giving some thought to exactly what the leaders of our country, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Sean Hannity, mean by " W A L L , " I realized that "wall" means that which is not there already, which is fencing.  Even the very tall steel fencing near San Diego, is not "wall."  This implies that fencing is not good enough.  But "wall" now means steel slats.  This also implies that the current scrap metal fencing needs to be replaced with steel slats.  Those media presidents have never explained how a "wall" (which means steel slats) is superior to the existing scrap metal fencing.  When Trump visited the "wall" samples near San Diego in March 2018, he interviewed a border patrol expert who stated the current fencing was 95% effective.  Then Trump said that the fencing was "not doing the trick".  At that time the number was $25 Billion for a "wall."   Trump went into great detail how the current fencing has holes cut through it, which later gets repaired, how it "doesn't look so good."  The fencing does not look pretty enough to him so it should be replaced.  This means it is worthwhile to replace the 95% effective scrap metal fence with steel slats which will improve border security to 99% effective.

“There was effectively no border in San Diego,” said Scott. “It was a chaotic situation,” adding the current fence, made of scrap metal, has at least helped in deterrence. “It changed our environment. We decreased illegal cross-border traffic by 95 percent.”President Trump said the new wall will improve the Border Patrol’s ability to secure the border even further. “When we put up the real wall, we’ll stop 99 percent, maybe more than that.”

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/spotlights/president-trump-visits-border-wall-prototypes

 

 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Airbrush

[J.C.MacSwell]

10 minutes ago, iNow said:

It’s a good question. I certainly wouldn’t reject it outright, but would want to see the actual details before deciding one way or the other whether I personally support it. My concern is the same you proactively called out, namely the history here of bait and switch tactics. I like to think I’m not some Charlie Brown always trying to kick the ball that Lucy keeps moving just as I get there. 

You would be concerned that Trump would not hold up his end of the bargain? Wouldn't that ensure he is ousted in 2020 (if it isn't already), followed by it passing shortly after that time (regardless of who gets in would that not be most likely?)

[iNow]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Wouldn't that ensure he is ousted in 2020 (if it isn't already), followed by it passing shortly after that time (regardless of who gets in would that not be most likely?)

No

[rangerx]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You would be concerned that Trump would not hold up his end of the bargain? Wouldn't that ensure he is ousted in 2020 (if it isn't already), followed by it passing shortly after that time (regardless of who gets in would that not be most likely?)

He already reneged on the promise of Mexico paying for it. His die has already been cast. In the meanwhile, it's just damage control.

[Ten oz]

5 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

You would be concerned that Trump would not hold up his end of the bargain? Wouldn't that ensure he is ousted in 2020 (if it isn't already), followed by it passing shortly after that time (regardless of who gets in would that not be most likely?)

Because Trump hasn't released a plan for what he'd do with the money my concern is that the 5.7 billion would be misused. Sometimes Trump says a fence is the same thing as a wall. Other times Trump says new technology like drones is the same as a wall. I would hate for 5.7 billion for Trump's wall to morph into a 5.7 billion dollar purchase from military contractors for armed drones. 

13 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Wouldn't that ensure he is ousted in 2020

Trump kicked off his campaign in 2015 and has received more media attention (cable news, blogs, social media) than any politician in history. After 4yrs years of this sh!t I do not believe for one second anyone is on the fence regarding how they feel about Trump. Moreover Trump flips the news cycle constantly. The 2020 election is still a hundred Trump scandals away. This shutdown will be old news by this summer never mind 2020.  

[John Cuthber]

It seems raider's not the only one trying to blame the Democrats

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

? If only for goading Trump and leaving him no "egomaniacal room" whatsoever?

[MigL]

"Ad hominem' approach and derailing the thread Ten oz ?
INow brought it up, if you'd care to re-read the posts ( or read them at all ).

Also, there has been You, I, JCM, INow and Rangerx involved in this discussion for the last several pages.
( with Airbrush and Raider popping in occasionally )
For INow to now claim that he said 'posters' and not JCM and MigL, is misleading ( to put it mildly )
Which other 'posters' is he referring to ?

If you, INow and Rangerx don't appreciate alternative viewpoints, and the exploration of ways out of this impasse, maybe you should take this to PM, as it certainly isn't a DISCUSSION forum.

Good luck to you, and your idiot President.
I hope not too many people suffer, but it has been said 'people get the government they deserve".
I'm out of this discussion.
( at least until D Trump wants us Canadians to pay for a Northern wall )

[J.C.MacSwell]

24 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

It seems raider's not the only one trying to blame the Democrats

Let's look at the full quote:

11 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Not suggesting less blame to Trump, but say, additional to Trump, and finally some to the Democrats as well? If only for goading Trump and leaving him no "egomaniacal room" whatsoever?

Note that these are questions, and directed at INow's claim that the Democrats could not be blamed in any way for the shutdown, even going forward, and his claim that he would endure significant financial hardship rather than give in to Trump. My question was with regard to INow's resolve, not a statement blaming Democrats.

MigL had suggested that the Democrats still had an obligation to try to resolve the impasse.

 

MigL said: 
"As far as I'm concerned, D Trump is totally responsible for the wall mess ( and many others ).
Not the Democrats, nor most Republicans.

However, both Democrats, and most Republicans have it in their power to help 800,000 people affected by the Government shutdown, 600,000 DACA immigrants and another 300,000 ( not my numbers, I'm assuming they're correct ) affected by the TPS extension.

Instead of playing D Trump's game, why don't the Democrats release a statement saying...
" We are going to do what governments are supposed to do. Help people. We, and some of our fellow Republicans are going to give in to that idiot's demands for the good of the country. We will not hold the American people hostage because of ideology or ego ( in D Trump's case ) "

But that's just an opinion as I'm not one of the people affected by the government shutdown, or who could be helped by this deal.
( just wondering if anyone on this forum hasn't received any pay for the last month )

Some here will of course interpret MigL's position, with regard to blame on the impasse, very differently from any reasonable reader. Why that might be true is best Left to another thread...

[Raider5678]

4 hours ago, Ten oz said:

He is refuting the idea that Trump is or could be anymore to blame than anyone else.

12 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Not suggesting less blame to Trump,

You have a bad habit of repeatedly claiming people say things they didn't. And you do it under the pretense of "what he really meant is X." 

It's lying.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Raider5678

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

You have a bad habit of repeatedly claiming people say things they didn't. And you do it under the pretense of "what he really meant is X." 

It's lying.

I think it is intentionally misleading. I also believe Ten oz would characterize it as lying if the equivalent was said by Trump.

But it seems to get a lot of positive reinforcement around here, and negative feedback for pointing it out.

...and it takes away from a lot of otherwise good posts.