best website ever

[ydoaPs]

http://www.deathtocreationism.com everyone should read this...especially those like herme3 and other creationists.

[SorceressPol]

For someone who complains about creationism so much, you sure do keep bringing it up.

[Callipygous]

you do realize creationism is not some horrible plague on the planet, right?

 

you realize its impossible to find any evidence AGAINST creationism, right?

 

the scientific community can be so stupid sometimes... were all supposed to be focussed on factual information, things that can be backed up, if not proven... you CANT prove creationism is wrong.

 

i know they go on annoying crusades a lot too, but do we really need to keep trying to change other peoples beliefs?

[Sayonara]

you do realize creationism is not some horrible plague on the planet' date=' right?

 

you realize its impossible to find any evidence AGAINST creationism, right?[/quote']

Yes, he knows.

 

Obey

[Hellbender]

Hey I signed up to join this site and I haven't yet gotten an e-mail with a password and instructions. Its a great site, otherwise.

[the tree]

I know they go on annoying crusades a lot too, but do we really need to keep trying to change other peoples beliefs?

Creationism is a reflection of something a lot more serious really quite scary.

"My pastor says that the world was created in seven days despite the gigantic amount of evidence against that" could potentially become "My pastor says that blacks cause all the worlds troubles..." or "My pastor says that happiness can be achived by taking this here cyanide".

O.k. maybe that's a little exagerated but my point still remains that people not thinking sensibly is dangerous.

So striving against creationism is part of striving for independant thougt.

</rant>

[Sayonara]

In the context of "Death to Creationism", when we say creationism we mean the mode of argument rather than the specifics of whichever belief system is being used as a vehicle.

[Sayonara]

Hey I signed up to join this site and I haven't yet gotten an e-mail with a password and instructions. Its a great site, otherwise.

Hmmmm.

 

See pm.

[atinymonkey]

you do realize creationism is not some horrible plague on the planet' date=' right?

[/quote']

Yes, yes it is. It cossets ignorance and exalts in misinformation. If we wished children to be brought up with backwards ideas from the dark ages, we would not bother with schools at all. Creationism is a carbuncle on society. If it were a dog, you would have it put down.

[Callipygous]

Yes, yes it is. It cossets ignorance and exalts in misinformation. If we wished children to be brought up with backwards ideas from the dark ages, we would not bother with schools at all. Creationism is a carbuncle on society. If it were a dog, you would have it put down.

 

 

are you taking creationism to mean the belief that god created everything or the belief that evolution is wrong? because i know plenty of people who believe in both(evolution and creationism), and the belief that god created everything is not ignorance or misinformation. it cannot be proven wrong, you cannot supply evidence that it is wrong.

 

one of my friends (one of the ones who believes in both, actually) took a geology class this year. the teacher he had was very intent on using geological evidence to disprove creationism. apparently every lesson he taught he included something about how some rock or another was formed in such a way that it could not have happened in the time frame creationists describe. that is IDIOCY. were talking about a -god-, "God made the rock look like it wasnt formed in a day as a test of faith for people like you." end of story, your evidence is now worthless. the dudes supposed to be all powerful, anything you say couldnt have been made by him in a day absolutely could have.

 

if you want to argue that its a plague on humanity your going the wrong way. it doesnt spread misinformation. the only thing you could really argue is that it supports a certain thought process that isnt really worth anything, and might make children bad scientists: blind faith.

[the tree]

are you taking creationism to mean the belief that god created everything or the belief that evolution is wrong?

I think he's taking on the breed of creationism that takes the first few chapters of genisis literally. So you can provide evidence for it being wrong.

[JPQuiceno]

are you taking creationism to mean the belief that god created everything or the belief that evolution is wrong? because i know plenty of people who believe in both(evolution and creationism)' date=' and the belief that god created everything is not ignorance or misinformation. it cannot be proven wrong, you cannot supply evidence that it is wrong.

 

one of my friends (one of the ones who believes in both, actually) took a geology class this year. the teacher he had was very intent on using geological evidence to disprove creationism. apparently every lesson he taught he included something about how some rock or another was formed in such a way that it could not have happened in the time frame creationists describe. that is IDIOCY. were talking about a -god-, "God made the rock look like it wasnt formed in a day as a test of faith for people like you." end of story, your evidence is now worthless. the dudes supposed to be all powerful, anything you say couldnt have been made by him in a day absolutely could have.

 

if you want to argue that its a plague on humanity your going the wrong way. it doesnt spread misinformation. the only thing you could really argue is that it supports a certain thought process that isnt really worth anything, and might make children bad scientists: blind faith.[/quote']

 

 

Creationism only has one meaning. It means the belief that the biblical god jehova created everything according to the account in genesis.

 

The belief that god created everything is ignorance, intellectualy dishonesty, and lying to yourself. Let me give a brief says so on why it is.

 

You are telling your self that the universe that was created, appread out of no where, and that some fairty god in "heaven" said it to be done, and it was done. That is going against logic. Now, if I told you that santa was real and that a fat man delivers all the toys in the world EVERY YEAR and doesnt fail, you would say thats nonsense. Correct? Of course you would. But people dont see that in creationism. Creationist try to explain what isnt there. They try to say how god created the earth, WHEN GOD HIMSELF DOESNT GIVE AN EXPLANITION ON HOW HE CREATED EARTH! (funny isnt it?)

 

Now, on to the other point. Evolution is fact, and is proved, and we see it everyday.

 

I will let mokele explain it, as I dont have the time.

 

Simple. First' date=' we need to establish what evolution is. Evolution is technically defined as "change in allele frequency in a population over time". (Micro vs macro is an artificial divide used only for communication purposes, and speciation is a direct consequence of this definition, so it is complete)

 

Now that we know what evolution is, it's very simple to prove. Go and sample to genes of local moths or frogs. Keep fruit flies and observe their genetics under selective pressure (such as by killing the smallest 50%). Expose a population of bacteria to antibiotic resistance and watch the genes for resistance spread.

 

All of the above have been done, and in every case [b']evolution has been directly obversed happening[/b].

 

We call evolution a fact because it is. It is an observed phenomonon. Period. It's actuall *far* more difficult to *prevent* evolution from happening (so that it doesn't bollox up your microbiology experiement) than to observe it.

 

So, evolution is a fact, an observed phenomenon whose reality *cannot* be denied except by imposing a false, different definition upon it (which is a strawman fallacy).

 

Now, the *theory* of evolution is more complicated. It deals with *why* this phenomenon occurs, and under what rules. Darwin's theory of natural selection, while broadly true, has both been heavily revised and ammended. Sexual selection, genetic drift, founder effect, devlopmental constraints, all account for what we have observed (and all are supported by massive reams of english).

 

So, basically, that's it. Aside from the masses of evidence supporting the theoretical framework, there is the observed, indisputable phenomenon.

 

 

 

See the above. This is *exactly* what we're on about. If you'd actually bothered to *learn* about evolution, you might have noticed that yes, it *is* a fact. And there was a very nice essay on this published in the popular press by the late Stephen J. Gould elaborating it far more effectively than I could. And this was 20 years or more ago, so you've certainly had bloody time to find the essay.

 

I am sitting down. That is a fact. It is not a theory, it is an isolated data point that can be gathered by simple observation. Evolution happens. This is a fact. It is not theory, it is an observation that can made by simply looking at the data.

 

We have *SEEN* evolution happen. Denial of that is intellectual dishonesty.

 

 

 

Then you are either evolutionist or a hypocrite. Microevolution and macroevolution are *NOT* distinct. They are distinguished simply so profs can talk more easily about what they study; there is no actual distinction between them. The existence of microevolution *LOGICALLY NECESSITATES* macroevolution. No if's, and's or but's. If you accept microevolution, you have no choice but to accept macroevolution. Failure to do so is simply ignoring logic so you can believe what you want.

 

Once again, you are demonstrating the typical creationist ignorance of the actual scientific literature and definitions.

 

 

 

It ticked you off because you realize, deep down, that you are wrong.

 

First, abiogenesis is *NOT* a part of evolution. It's veracity or falsehood has *no* effect on evolution's veracity. This has been covered HUNDREDS of times, on this forum alone. Yet again, the creationist ignorance of actual science shows. And you wonder why we disparage you?

 

Secondly, skepticism is fine. All scientists are skeptics by trade. But there is enough evidence for any aspect of evolution that refusal to accept it is beyond the boundaries of reason.

 

 

 

Have you ever, in your life, performed an experiment? Congratualtions, you've proved yourself wrong.

 

I have LOTS of scientific facts. 11 1-hour video tapes filled with them. What you call "facts" I call "data". It is a FACT that at timecode 34:55:23 on tape 4, snake #6's head is at coordinates X and Y.

 

Fact = data. Data=observable phenomenon that can be measured. Guess what follows this and you get a cookie.

 

Yet again, another case of creationist ignorance of real science and how science works.

 

Mokele

[atinymonkey]

are you taking creationism to mean the belief that god created everything or the belief that evolution is wrong?

Christianity includes the belief that god created everything. That's fine. I personally don't call that creationism.

 

The creationism I'm talking about is the belief that the first chapter of the Bible, in the King James Edition, is a literal account of the start of time and the universe. That's just super crazy.

 

because i know plenty of people who believe in both(evolution and creationism),

Mmmm. The idea that Gods hand in creation = Creationism is a quite limiting concept. I feel it's degrading to Christians to be associated Creationism, or Progressive Creationism as it's labled.

 

and the belief that god created everything is not ignorance or misinformation.

Well, it is in a way. We know he didn't create the keyboard you are using, for instance. But he could well have guided the work that led it to be created.

 

it cannot be proven wrong' date=' you cannot supply evidence that it is wrong.

[/quote']

That's besides the point. Nobody can prove it either. It cannot be done.

It's all just theological debate.