You think you've got problems America...

[Wellds]

On 1/21/2019 at 1:52 PM, Strange said:

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much the public has learned. For example, I saw the results of a survey where 26% of the people asked thought that "no deal" means maintaining the status quo.

If a significant proportion are going to vote for the most damaging option because they think it will leave thing as they are, then I'm not sure another vote will be any more meaningful.

But that isn't the argument being made. 

Let's say you agree with some friends that you are going to go out for a meal. So you follow one friend who takes you to a restaurant which is filthy but really expensive. You remember seeing news stories about people getting food poisoning there regularly.

Do you:

a) Ask you friends if that is really where you want to eat, or would they prefer that nice place next door?

Or

b) Say, "well we decided to go out to eat, so we have to eat this disgusting place, whether we want to or not." After all, it would be betraying the original decision if we voted on where to eat now we have seen the options

That's pure Democracy, it has nothing to do with individual liberty of deciding where to go and going whether others like it or not. It's about accepting majority over yourself. To maintain "honour" a second referendum should happen with the premise that a third would take place in case ppl wanted to stay.

 

[Strange]

7 hours ago, Wellds said:

 

You appear to have quoted me and changed what I said. That is against the rules.

[mistermack]

9 hours ago, Royston said:

Personally I think we should have a civil war

The problem is, they start out civil, but end up damned uncivil. It's the involvement of the common soldier that drags wars into the gutter. 

I would like to see a war with just officers fighting each other. It's the only way to maintain standards. 

[Wellds]

3 hours ago, Strange said:

You appear to have quoted me and changed what I said. That is against the rules.

Bad editing:
 

That's pure Democracy, it has nothing to do with individual liberty of deciding where to go and going whether others like it or not. It's about accepting majority over yourself. To maintain "honour" a second referendum should happen with the premise that a third would take place in case ppl wanted to stay.

 

my quote

 

[Strange]

13 minutes ago, Wellds said:

Bad editing:
 

That's pure Democracy, it has nothing to do with individual liberty of deciding where to go and going whether others like it or not. It's about accepting majority over yourself. To maintain "honour" a second referendum should happen with the premise that a third would take place in case ppl wanted to stay.

 

my quote

 

So you didn't read what I said?

The point is that another referendum would not be the same referendum. It would not be a hopelessly naive "Do you want to leave the EU (with no idea how, what it entails, what the effects might be, etc)?"

It would be "Do you want to accept this specific withdrawal agreement, with this specific political declaration on the desired future relationship with the EU, knowing that it will have these effects on trade, the economy, your rights, etc. Or would you prefer to maintain the status quo."

If you think that requires a third referendum, then I would be curious to know why.

Quote

That's pure Democracy .... It's about accepting majority over yourself.

That is not what democracy means. Or at least, not what modern western democracy means. There may be some places where it is acceptable for the "tyranny of the majority" to overrule the ideals, wishes and rights of the minority, but that is not the sort of democracy I would want to be part of.

Also, worth noting that only about 1/3rd of the population voted to leave. And it was a very narrow majority. I disapprove of referendums in general, but I think it is very unwise to make a major constitutional change on a 50:50 result, even with a reasonably large turnout.

I don't know what "pure democracy" means. There are many forms of democracy, all with different shortcomings. The UK has a representative democracy, which means that MPs are elected to represent the interests of all their constituents (not just do what some subset of them say) and the interests of the country. Often this means doing what some people, sometimes even the majority, disagree with.

[iNow]

Any guesses on how the vote will turn out tonight? Johnson or Corbyn?

[StringJunky]

1 hour ago, iNow said:

Any guesses on how the vote will turn out tonight? Johnson or Corbyn?

Polls suggest Tory. It'll be a Brexit vote, so it's likely many will vote according to how they align with that. I imagine many, like myself, are sick of it and just want to see it out of the way. I'm a floating voter and not partisan. The final result, whatever it is, will tell us what the mood is. If the Tories win and don't align with the EU on stopping changing the clocks, next year, I'll be voting Labour next time..

[iNow]

The mood is angry and agitated. What party is that? [/rhetorical]  

[StringJunky]

32 minutes ago, iNow said:

The mood is angry and agitated. What party is that? [/rhetorical]  

That will be the Leavers, so Tory.  The probable question is: "How many feel that way?". Corbyn has been very vague on his position and I think a lot of people won't like that.  It's like he's hedging his bets just to become PM. Rightly or wrongly, people like candidates with an air of certainty and commitment, which Boris has largely presented. I could be totally wrong, of course, come tomorrow.

[John Cuthber]

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Corbyn has been very vague on his position

He plans to try to negotiate the best deal available, then put it to the public in a referendum.

Which part of that is vague?

I grant you "best" is a bit subjective but there's only on real plan on offer and it's the one presented by May and Johnson with marginal changes.
 

 

[StringJunky]

22 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

He plans to try to negotiate the best deal available, then put it to the public in a referendum.

Which part of that is vague?

I grant you "best" is a bit subjective but there's only on real plan on offer and it's the one presented by May and Johnson with marginal changes.
 

 

On his position, not what he's going to do. We'll see if people have the stomach to prolong it.

[StringJunky]

@iNow  From the BBC just now:

Quote

The Conservatives are set to win an overall majority of 86 in the general election, according to an exit poll for the BBC, ITV and Sky News.

The survey taken at UK polling stations suggests the Tories will get 368 MPs - 50 more than at the 2017 election - when all the results have been counted.

Labour would get 191, the Lib Dems 13, the Brexit Party none and the SNP 55.

The Green Party will still have one MP and Plaid Cymru will lose one seat for a total of three, the survey suggests.

 

[iNow]

I just saw this elsewhere too. Brexit party none. Lol

[StringJunky]

27 minutes ago, iNow said:

I just saw this elsewhere too. Brexit party none. Lol

They got out of the Tory seats by arrangement and trying in Labour seats, which they are not likely to win. There existence relies solely on achieving Brexit and if that's the Tories then I suppose they are happyish. They want a hard Brexit though.

Edited December 12, 2019 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

So everything set for an orderly Brexit (heh)?

[StringJunky]

30 minutes ago, CharonY said:

So everything set for an orderly Brexit (heh)?

The Irish DUP, who propped the Tories up, aren't happy with the existing agreement but everything else seems arranged with the EU.

[iNow]

Appears as if it’s more or less a done deal for January now and that most of 2020 will be spent cleaning up the broken bits

[StringJunky]

11 minutes ago, iNow said:

Appears as if it’s more or less a done deal for January now and that most of 2020 will be spent cleaning up the broken bits

They are only polls at the end of the day, so nobody can fry their eggs yet. Could be a surprise result and Corbyn wins with a majority. Trump won, didn't he? But yes, I would like that to happen because I've had enough and Leave did win the 2016 vote,,, and we can then talk about Trump and what colour boiler suit he'll be wearing in 2021.

Edited December 13, 2019 by StringJunky

[iNow]

The way things are going, he’ll be wearing the same suit and oversized red tie in the Oval Office of the White House. 

[StringJunky]

5 hours ago, iNow said:

The way things are going, he’ll be wearing the same suit and oversized red tie in the Oval Office of the White House. 

I hope not. Tories got their majority. It went pretty much as the polls suggested. Looks like Scottish National Party will get their second referendum on independence after winning quite strongly.

Edited December 13, 2019 by StringJunky

[John Cuthber]

18 hours ago, StringJunky said:

The Irish DUP, who propped the Tories up, aren't happy with the existing agreement but everything else seems arranged with the EU.

Yes and no.
There is no agreed plan for the UK leaving the EU- just a date.
And there is no plan for forming new trade deals with the rest of the world- except the one where Boris sells the NHS to the US drugs companies.

There's an important aspect to this which seems not to get the coverage it should.

Boris ran on a single issue ticket "Get brexit done".

Two thirds or so of the electorate voted against it. [ now the numbers have been published, I'm editing this to say it's about 60% who voted against him]
And yet he's doing it anyway.
 

Our electoral system is badly broken.
 

Edited December 13, 2019 by John Cuthber

[dimreepr]

59 minutes ago, John Cuthber said:

Yes and no.
There is no agreed plan for the UK leaving the EU- just a date.
And there is no plan for forming new trade deals with the rest of the world- except the one where Boris sells the NHS to the US drugs companies.

There's an important aspect to this which seems not to get the coverage it should.

Boris ran on a single issue ticket "Get brexit done".

Two thirds or so of the electorate voted against it.
And yet he's doing it anyway.
 

Our electoral system is badly broken.
 

Indeed.
And the EU arent going to play nice either.

6 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Looks like Scottish National Party will get their second referendum on independence after winning quite strongly.

Lucky them.

Edited December 13, 2019 by dimreepr

[StringJunky]

3 hours ago, John Cuthber said:

Yes and no.
There is no agreed plan for the UK leaving the EU- just a date.
And there is no plan for forming new trade deals with the rest of the world- except the one where Boris sells the NHS to the US drugs companies.

There's an important aspect to this which seems not to get the coverage it should.

Boris ran on a single issue ticket "Get brexit done".

Two thirds or so of the electorate voted against it.
And yet he's doing it anyway.
 

Our electoral system is badly broken.
 

In the referendum?

[dimreepr]

It didnt help...

[John Cuthber]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

In the referendum?

No, in  the general election.
He supported Remain in the referendum, but changed sides... repeatedly.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/how-boris-johnson-has-changed-his-views-on-europe