Hijack from Doubts about GR (split from Exclusive: Grave doubts over LIGO’s discovery of gravitational waves)

[madmac]

On 11/28/2018 at 12:22 PM, Q-reeus said:

Well within GR paradigm GW's are nothing other than purely spacetime ripples. The better analogy then is one between sound waves and GW's. Both are distortions of a medium, and not something else propagating on top of or through the medium. Anyway there is a logical issue with GR's take on GW's as pure transverse spacetime distortions.
Given GW's carry away energy and momentum, they should also self-gravitate like all other forms of energy-momentum-stress do within GR.
But by definition, the vacuum gravitational field - both static and dynamic i.e. GW's, is NOT a source of further gravity in GR. Hence a self-consistency issue exists - there is an overall loss of gravitating mass when a binary BH or NS merger sheds GW's. That portion converted to GW's no longer gravitates.

In some other gravity theories, there is no such dilemma. For instance, Svidzinsky's Vector Theory of Gravity posits GW's are comprised of quanta - gravitons. Propagating on a notionally flat background metric. In that scenario gravitons self-gravitate similar to photons do.

I had a read of most of the comments & am disappointed, i havent learnt much. The main topic seems to be whether GWs need a medium to propagate -- the answer is in the question -- it cant propagate without a medium. And swansont's comment that em radiation doesnt need a medium is a worry -- it reminds me that standard science continually confuses photons with em radiation -- hencely bringing in em radiation can only confuse rather than clarify.

The main side issue seems to be whether GW's & gravity add to the gravity field. I thort that Einstein said yes. In which case the addition must introduce a kind of almost never ending process of addition that sooner or later ends -- which is ok by me, i am not suggesting that that makes it ridiculous. 

And by the way, Einstein did not believe that binaries made GWs, & even if quadrupolar GWs were true that they did not carry away energy.

From an aetherist view gravity is due to the acceleration of the aether inflow into mass where aether is annihilated, & this does not appear to offer any scope for such new acceleration to add to the primary acceleration. However, Ranzan says that new additional acceleration happens, due to the contractile nature of aether (the tension annihilates aether outside of the mass in question)(which i dont understand), but Ranzan has an explanation on his website.  If so then we have the situation of Aetherists agreeing with Einstein whilst Einsteinists disagree with Einstein.

The larger context in the OP appears to be related to LIGO. I see that the latest news re LIGO is that their lovely graph of their costly chirps were produced by LIGO's PR department for public consumption, with an emphasis i suppose on CON.  But no mention of that here. And no response from LIGO. 

Edited January 21, 2019 by madmac

[Strange]

3 hours ago, madmac said:

I had a read of most of the comments & am disappointed, i havent learnt much. The main topic seems to be whether GWs need a medium to propagate -- the answer is in the question -- it cant propagate without a medium.

The medium is space-time.

3 hours ago, madmac said:

it reminds me that standard science continually confuses photons with em radiation -- hencely bringing in em radiation can only confuse rather than clarify

Why do you think that these are confused? The photon is the quantum of electromagnetic radiation. You can either use the classical description, in terms of continuous waves, or the quantum description. They describe the same thing: electromagnetic radiation. (Which does not need a medium.)

3 hours ago, madmac said:

From an aetherist view gravity is due to the acceleration of the aether inflow into mass where aether is annihilated

Probably best not to bring that into someone else's thread. If you want to start a thread on "aether" then do so.

 

[madmac]

12 hours ago, Strange said:

The medium is space-time.

Comment: Spacetime is gamma. Gamma is a number between 0 & 1. This cannot be a medium. However i am happy to agree that gamma (or gamma plus gamma)(or gamma times gamma) can be a pseudo medium if the number is not constant but is changing. In which case the LIGO GW could propagate throo spacetime (if it such a wave existed,  i dont think it does). But a pseudo medium would still need a proper medium.

Why do you think that these are confused? The photon is the quantum of electromagnetic radiation. You can either use the classical description, in terms of continuous waves, or the quantum description. They describe the same thing: electromagnetic radiation. (Which does not need a medium.)

I am ok with a theory that photons are particles & dont need a medium, but if they are waves then waves need a medium.  But the trouble with standard science is that it reckons that photons are em radiation, in which case u sort of have to say that em radiation is photons. In which case charge & electro & magneto static & dynamic fields are made of photons.  No, that kind of theory cant possibly survive.  However Aetherists are also clueless here.  No-one has any good ideas re em radiation. Except me. 

 

Quote

Probably best not to bring that into someone else's thread. If you want to start a thread on "aether" then do so.

It appears that the thread has been split off doubts over LIGO to cater for doubts about GR.  Doubts about GR is a big area.  I have lots of doubts over GR. I appreciate that one shouldnt just use a thread to evangelicise one's pet theory. But on the other hand it would be a pity to invoke a rule that says that the only doubts allowed here are doubts about the internal consistency of GR, focusing i suppose mainly on math errors & difficulties arising from translating german to english.  What better way to raise doubt than to apply Occam's Razor, but OR involves comparing one idea with another (sorry, not allowed on this forum)(gainst the rules). Aether is of course the main No1 paramount doubt re SR, & if the SR card falls then the whole GR house comes tumbling down.   

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by madmac

[beecee]

1 hour ago, madmac said:

What better way to raise doubt than to apply Occam's Razor, but OR involves comparing one idea with another (sorry, not allowed on this forum)(gainst the rules). Aether is of course the main No1 paramount doubt re SR, & if the SR card falls then the whole GR house comes tumbling down.  

The last time I checked, GR was still standing and overwhelmingly supported and evidenced, and as a subset, of GR, SR likewise. So far your confusing rhetoric has not changed that.

 

[Strange]

3 hours ago, madmac said:

Spacetime is gamma.

Why just make stuff up? Spacetime is not "gamma"; it is a 4 dimensional geometric structure (the clue is in the name). So the rest of that point is irrelevant as it is premised on a false statement.

3 hours ago, madmac said:

but if they are waves then waves need a medium

But apparently they don't. Or, if you insist, they create the "medium" and carry it with them (the alternating electric and magnetic fields).

You can keep insisting "they need a medium" but there is no reason behind that. No scientific need. No evidence for such a medium. And any proposed medium is (a) contradicted by evidence and (b) must have physically impossible and contradictory properties.

So the science says "no medium". That trumps your emotional desire for a medium.

3 hours ago, madmac said:

But on the other hand it would be a pity to invoke a rule

Not really. Rules are there for a reason. If you want to discuss your own crackpot ideas, then start your on thread. As simple as that.

3 hours ago, madmac said:

Aether is of course the main No1 paramount doubt re SR

A mythical substance that only exists in your imagination does not cast doubt on a theory supported by evidence. Science beats magic. Sorry.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

madmac, it was suggested you not continue and instead open up a new thread. You did not take the hint, so I have done this