Gay Teens Executed In Iran

[Callipygous]

Have you ever seen a gay pride parade? Like in person' date=' not a doctored and heavily edited newsclip designed to specifically show the weirdest people?

 

As I said, I've marched in one (unfortunately I had to miss the last two due to work). There were only 6 drag queens, and nobody else dressed unusually. 6 queens in over 1500 people, the rest of whom looked like anyone you would pass on the street. I wore the outrageously provocative outfit of jeans and a t-shirt (which, like most of my shirts, depicted reptiles).[/quote']

 

it doesnt matter what actually happens. i said what people ASSOCIATE it with. most people arent out there watching the parade, they are at home watching the doctored news clip that shows all the drag queens and guys wearing buttless chaps.

 

 

 

Most gay people do *not* wander around proclaiming it for all to hear. Most only *do* bring it up when it comes up in conversation, which is very infrequently. If you were to go by that basis, you'd think, erroneously, that gays are tiny, tiny portion of the population, smaller than usual, because you don't *have* conversations like that with all the people you see every day. If there was never any pride parades, you'd think gays would be less than 0.001% of the population, because you'd unconsciously assume everyone you pass on the street is straight.

 

so?

 

 

 

Thus spake someone who clearly has not studied the situation.

 

Do you realize that until *last year* it was illegal for two consenting adult males to engage in anal sex in the privacy of their own home in the state of Texas? And that similar laws exist all over the country? How is that "our fault"?

 

i am aware of the fact that this country still feels like it has the right to run peoples lives, i was not aware of that particular law, although i have heard of similar ones.

 

If a guy gets beaten to death just because he held hands in public with his boyfriend, did he bring that on himself, by not hiding who he is and avoiding a simple, harmless gesture that you see thousands or millions of straight couples doing every day?

 

thats a pointless argument. the kind of people who would beat someone to death for that are not people who are going to be swayed in the least by realizing lots of normal people are gay.

 

And how, exactly, does not being given the right to marry come from being visible?

 

i believe i mentioned that particular issue. thats a problem, go protest it.

 

 

 

In case you haven't noticed, homosexuals *are* people.

 

yeah... maybe try to think about the sentence before responding to it next time. the point, which you have handily blown over, is that they dont deserve rights because they are gay they deserve rights because they are people

 

 

 

Give me one good reason why I *shouldn't* parade down the street? One good reason.

because it will piss people off. because it will turn people against you. because, as i mentioned at the start of this, it inspires hatred, and disgust, in a lot of people.

 

in other words it fights against your cause.

 

Does it offend you? Make you uncomfortable? Bring up some deeply supressed feelings you've been hiding?

 

no, it doesnt bother me the slightest bit. but it does do all three of those for a lot of people. they get to vote too.

 

Give me one reason why I shouldn't enjoy the same basic freedom to be open about myself as anyone else?

 

your asking to be a hell of a lot more open than most people. do you see me parading down the street celebrating MY sexual orientation? no. im too polite for that. a lot of people are very easily offended. not to mention the fact that it would be met with the same reaction as "white power".

[Mokele]

it doesnt matter what actually happens. i said what people ASSOCIATE it with. most people arent out there watching the parade, they are at home watching the doctored news clip that shows all the drag queens and guys wearing buttless chaps.

 

So nobody who has a negative media image should even try? That's what you're saying. The media will always twist things, so why should anyone ever do anything? Let's just sit at home as our rights are trampled, lest the few people too stupid to look beyond the media get a bad impression.

 

so?

 

So there exists a form of invisibility that is best countered by events such as pride parades and other forms of visibility-increasing events.

 

thats a pointless argument. the kind of people who would beat someone to death for that are not people who are going to be swayed in the least by realizing lots of normal people are gay.

 

No, you stated, and I quote "the only reason 'homosexuals' is a minority with second class citizen status is BECAUSE THEY BRING IT UP." My example is a pointed refutation of your foolish statement. The people who murdered Matthew Shepard actually deliberately went *into* a gay bar and picked him up for the *explicit* purpose of murdering him.

 

Or should we never even gather in private, and instead spend our lives in the closet, isolated and alone, on the off chance that someone might take offense?

 

i believe i mentioned that particular issue. thats a problem, go protest it.

 

And you expect us to protest how, since you seem to think we should never be seen in public?

 

yeah... maybe try to think about the sentence before responding to it next time. the point, which you have handily blown over, is that they dont deserve rights because they are gay they deserve rights because they are people

 

But most people don't realize that. Many people, because they are only presented with homosexuality in abstract, don't put a personal face on it. When they *can* put a personal face on it, a neighbor or co-worker or relative or friend, *then* they see it as affecting *people* rather than an abstract categorical noun.

 

And that's where pride parades and openness come in: putting the faces of people that you (plural you) know on the concept. Only then, only with visibility, do we become 'people' in the minds of others.

 

because it will piss people off. because it will turn people against you. because, as i mentioned at the start of this, it inspires hatred, and disgust, in a lot of people.

 

in other words it fights against your cause.

 

Funny, it seems to have had precisely the opposite effect. In fact, ALL progress in gay rights was made *after* Stonewall, *after* we started to stand up and proclaim our existence with pride. Before, when gays lived in shame and hiding, never being open or bothering anyone, it was illegal and gays were jailed for just being who they were.

 

Let me repeat, in case you missed it: *ALL* advances in gay rights, have come *AFTER* and *BECAUSE* we stood up and proclaimed we exist, we're everywhere, and we will fight for our rights.

 

Maybe it pisses a narrow segment of the population off, but many more see their friends, family, and associates in the parades and realize that they aren't just taking rights away from a group, but from *people* they know.

 

your asking to be a hell of a lot more open than most people. do you see me parading down the street celebrating MY sexual orientation? no. im too polite for that. a lot of people are very easily offended. not to mention the fact that it would be met with the same reaction as "white power".

 

Have you ever held hands with a member of the opposite sex in public?

 

Have you ever kissed a date/gf in public, even chastely? Hugged?

 

If the answer to *ANY* of the above is yes, then you are far more guilty of parading your orientation around in public than almost any gay couple.

 

It has nothing to do with politeness. It has to do with standing up for our rights and so that everyone can see just *who* they are hurting.

 

----------

 

By your logic, politcal parties and their conventions should be banned. How dare they parade their differences in public, when doing so might offend people!

 

Mokele

[Callipygous]

So nobody who has a negative media image should even try? That's what you're saying. The media will always twist things, so why should anyone ever do anything? Let's just sit at home as our rights are trampled, lest the few people too stupid to look beyond the media get a bad impression.

 

who do you think sees the actual parade? do you think its the homophobes who beat people to death for holding hands? do you think they are out there watching you stand up for yourself? no. they are at home watching the media altered version. the people at the parade arent the ones you need to convince, so yeah, the media image is what matters in this case.

 

 

 

No, you stated, and I quote "the only reason 'homosexuals' is a minority with second class citizen status is BECAUSE THEY BRING IT UP." My example is a pointed refutation of your foolish statement. The people who murdered Matthew Shepard actually deliberately went *into* a gay bar and picked him up for the *explicit* purpose of murdering him.

 

im not saying they should be hiding. reading that again, its poorly phrased, i was in the process of writing this response but i have chores i need to do. then later today im driving up to oregon. ill write more later on. hopefully ill get a chance this week. : P

[Callipygous]

No, you stated, and I quote "the only reason 'homosexuals' is a minority with second class citizen status is BECAUSE THEY BRING IT UP." My example is a pointed refutation of your foolish statement. The people who murdered Matthew Shepard actually deliberately went *into* a gay bar and picked him up for the *explicit* purpose of murdering him.

 

im gonna try saying that differently now. it really doesnt express my thoughts on this.

 

the only way to achieve equality in society is to no longer legally and officially recognize differences. if you want absolute equality for homosexuals your not gonna get it by marching through the streets shouting out crap like "were here, were queer, get used to it." the only way is to not accentuate the fact that your any different from anyone else. you want equality? petition to have "man" and "woman" removed from the constitution entirely on the grounds that it unfairly singles out half of the population anytime its used. anywhere it says "man" or "woman" should say "person". thats the only way your gonna get it. man, woman, latino, african american, and anyother words describing a minority should never appear on any legal document.

 

Or should we never even gather in private, and instead spend our lives in the closet, isolated and alone, on the off chance that someone might take offense?

 

your stretching my words an aweful lot. i have never said you should hide. im just saying a parade is just gonna piss off the kind of people that would vote against gay marriage.

 

 

 

And you expect us to protest how, since you seem to think we should never be seen in public?

 

once again, quit stretching my words. theres a big difference between being "Seen in public" and having a parade through the middle of town rubbing your orientation in the faces of all the people who dont like it.

 

protest in legally effective ways. petition, hold a demonstration on specific issues, like gay marriage, write to your legislation.

 

 

 

Funny, it seems to have had precisely the opposite effect. In fact, ALL progress in gay rights was made *after* Stonewall, *after* we started to stand up and proclaim our existence with pride. Before, when gays lived in shame and hiding, never being open or bothering anyone, it was illegal and gays were jailed for just being who they were.

 

Let me repeat, in case you missed it: *ALL* advances in gay rights, have come *AFTER* and *BECAUSE* we stood up and proclaimed we exist, we're everywhere, and we will fight for our rights.

 

Maybe it pisses a narrow segment of the population off, but many more see their friends, family, and associates in the parades and realize that they aren't just taking rights away from a group, but from *people* they know.

 

im just saying of the homophobes ive talked to about this, the majority tell me their biggest beef is things like the gay pride parade.

 

 

 

Have you ever held hands with a member of the opposite sex in public?

 

Have you ever kissed a date/gf in public, even chastely?

no

 

Hugged?

yes, but ive hugged my male friends in public too.

 

If the answer to *ANY* of the above is yes, then you are far more guilty of parading your orientation around in public than almost any gay couple.

 

i would assume your right about that, but i cant say i actually know. at my school i saw far more lesbians making out in the hallways than straight couples, but i live in california about 30 minutes from san fran so my area is probably somewhat more liberal than most.

[Thomas Kirby]

and what im saying' date=' is the only reason "homosexuals" is a minority with second class citizen status is BECAUSE THEY BRING IT UP.

 

dont ask for rights as a homosexual, thats stupid. ask for rights as a person. homosexuals dont deserve rights, PEOPLE deserve rights.

 

its not that you should never say a word. if theres a problem, by all means say so. they want to ban gay marriage? go protest! great! dont do a damn parade through the middle of the street celebrating your sexual orientation. speak up about problems, not "hey, im gay, accept me."[/quote']

 

 

I can't agree with that. If you picked groups of young adults at random who hang out together and drink and talk, and listened to how many times they mentioned homosexual activities in what they call normal conversation in public, which groups talk about it more? Homosexuals or heterosexuals?

 

The people I have heard talk about it the most, with very graphic and specific language, have been the people who pretend to hate gays the most. With no gay men in the room, or no one they know to be gay, they go on and on and on and on and on..... I don't want to fill the page with "on and on." It is enough to tempt the most dedicated butch queen to hammer Q-tips into his ear drums to prevent himself from hearing another word, even if these people were on his side.

 

It's the militant heteros who keep bringing it up. They can't freaking shut up. They rant and rave and foam at the mouth, which really looks weird on someone who eats pork rinds and drinks Budweiser. It's more inane and not one tenth as cute as a conversation between a circle of Furbies with everlasting batteries.

 

 

While I'm at it, the oppression of gays hurts everyone. I want more people to be conscious of the fact that right behind the damage done to gays is the finger-pointing, the labelling, the bullying of anyone who the gay bashers can label as gay or gay sympathetic. I swear, the first rat-brained bovine-porcine behemoth who ever approached a smaller man, pointed his finger, and said, "You bleeping bleepy faggot, you're going to do what I say or else" should have found his insides on the outside, and every one afterwards. I would like everyone who was ever approached that way to be magically imbued with the power to find out what it looks like after such a person impacts a concrete wall at nearly the speed of sound.

 

This really is the most basic kind of terrorism. Why would the accusation of homosexuality freeze my blood? It is because such an accusation is so often followed by a pounding, sometimes by one, sometimes by a gang. There are places where it is followed by male on male gang rape. That's really all there is to it. Someone points a finger at you, then you're, well, badly hurt in a very personal manner.

[Dak]

im just saying of the homophobes ive talked to about this, the majority tell me their biggest beef is things like the gay pride parade.

 

i think your confusing cause and effect.

 

those people dont dislike gays because the parade annoys them; they get annoyed with the gay pride parade because they dislike gays (and espescially the fact that theyre allowed to be publicly gay en-mass).

 

either that, or their worried that if gays are allowed to parade, then any children that the parade comes across might be kidnapped by the big-bad-pooftas and forsed into watching big brother and the saloon untill they become queer too.

 

they may word it differently, but thats what it generally boils down to.

[Mokele]

who do you think sees the actual parade? do you think its the homophobes who beat people to death for holding hands? do you think they are out there watching you stand up for yourself? no. they are at home watching the media altered version. the people at the parade arent the ones you need to convince, so yeah, the media image is what matters in this case.

 

One word: Swing voters. It's just like the elections; you have the firm people on both sides, but a fair number of people in the middle who don't really hold ironclad positions. These people can be swung by realizing that a friend or co-worker is gay.

 

Plus, we don't need to win over the homophobes, we already have them on our side. They just need to come out of the closet to themselves and realize just *why* they're so anti-gay. (Seriously, the stronger someone's anti-gay positions and the more they bluster about it, the more likely it is that they're actually gay and just trying to convince themselves otherwise. This isn't hearsay, but an accepted fact of psychology.)

 

the only way to achieve equality in society is to no longer legally and officially recognize differences. if you want absolute equality for homosexuals your not gonna get it by marching through the streets shouting out crap like "were here, were queer, get used to it." the only way is to not accentuate the fact that your any different from anyone else. you want equality? petition to have "man" and "woman" removed from the constitution entirely on the grounds that it unfairly singles out half of the population anytime its used. anywhere it says "man" or "woman" should say "person". thats the only way your gonna get it. man, woman, latino, african american, and anyother words describing a minority should never appear on any legal document.

 

I agree that would solve the problem, but there are also homosexual-specific issues that need to be addressed. Two examples:

 

1) My city, Cincinnati, until very recently had a ban on equal-rights legislation involving sexuality. In this city, you could be fired, evicted, denied loans, anything just based on sexuality. This wasn't an omission of prior laws, but rather a specific ammendment to the city charter that *specifically* forbade making laws to protect the rights of homosexuals. Fortunately, though many petitions and, yes, parades, when it came up for a vote it was repealed, even in very conservative Cinci.

 

2) Gay adoption. There are many states that have specific laws forbidding it. In order for equality to be achieved, those laws must be repealed.

 

In *both* cases, people need to realize that they are hurting *people*, not just an abstract grouping without a known face. That, as I've said many times before, is the point of such parades, something you have ignored each time I brought it up.

 

im just saying a parade is just gonna piss off the kind of people that would vote against gay marriage.

 

They'd vote against it anyway, so why does it matter? To re-use the analogy at the top of this post, political parties don't try to woo the hard-core supporters of the opposition, but rather the 'swing voters', those who occupy the middle-ground.

 

Plus the people most likely to be pissed off are the ones most likely to be secretly giving ******** in the alley behind the local gay bar because they can't come to terms with their sexuality.

 

theres a big difference between being "Seen in public" and having a parade through the middle of town rubbing your orientation in the faces of all the people who dont like it.

 

I'm not stretching your words. Here you *SPECIFICALLY* state that we should curtail our activities because of the ignorant bigots who don't like it. Bullshit. Freedom means the freedom to do something / be / hold views that are / live a life that is unpopular.

 

And it's not "rubbing anyone's face in it" to simply demonstrate it. You (plural) rub our faces in your orientation every time you drive by in a car with "just married" written on it, or kiss in public without fear of being beaten up. The prevalence of strait sexuality is such that it's rubbed in the face of every non-straight every day. Yet you say us merely announcing our existence is "rubbing your face in it"? Bullshit. You are advocating a bigoted double-standard, where only straight displays of affection and sexuality are acceptable.

 

im just saying of the homophobes ive talked to about this, the majority tell me their biggest beef is things like the gay pride parade.

 

Bullshit, their biggest beef is the one they're getting in the back room of the local gay leatherbar before they go home and return to their default of frantically trying to convince everyone (but mostly themselves) they aren't really gay.

 

These people would be against gay rights with or without a parade. The parade just gives them something to lash out at. Dak is right, you're confusing the target of homophobia with the cause.

 

no

 

And you're how old? Waiting to come over to our team, eh?

 

i would assume your right about that, but i cant say i actually know. at my school i saw far more lesbians making out in the hallways than straight couples, but i live in california about 30 minutes from san fran so my area is probably somewhat more liberal than most.

 

I'd bet you actually haven't, through a common mental trick of simply remembering the notable events. That's not against you, that's just how the mind works. I'd bet that if you actually took a notepad with you and, over the course of a month noted down every time you saw anyone making out, you'd find that you've seen more straight couples making out. But your brain pays more attention and is more likely to remember novel or unusual stimuli, so when asked to recall, the ratio will be skewed.

 

Suffice to say, in the vast majority of the world, you see far more public straight affection than public gay affection. All we want is the same right, to be able to kiss or hold hands in public without being insulted or attacked.

 

Mokele

[Dak]

2) Gay adoption. There are many states that have specific laws forbidding it. In order for equality to be achieved, those laws must be repealed.

 

That doesnt nessesaraly follow. People can only be as equal as they actually are; if two men genuinely cant do as good a job as a man and a woman, then they are (by nature) not equal in their ability to raise a child, and so theres no need for the law to allow them to adopt in order to bestow equality upon them.

[Dave]

Just to nip this one in the bud, please don't let the thread turn into (a) a gay marriage debate (we've had far too many already), (b) a mud-slinging match. I'm aware that this is a pretty sensitive issue, and one influenced strongly by prejudice and emotion.

 

Let's keep this one clean, eh?

[Callipygous]

One word: Swing voters. It's just like the elections; you have the firm people on both sides, but a fair number of people in the middle who don't really hold ironclad positions. These people can be swung by realizing that a friend or co-worker is gay.

 

good point. (but thats two words )

 

Plus, we don't need to win over the homophobes, we already have them on our side. They just need to come out of the closet to themselves and realize just *why* they're so anti-gay. (Seriously, the stronger someone's anti-gay positions and the more they bluster about it, the more likely it is that they're actually gay and just trying to convince themselves otherwise. This isn't hearsay, but an accepted fact of psychology.)

 

i have heard this an aweful lot. i have also heard that its just a standard defence mechanism that doesnt actually have anything behind it. are then any reputable sources to back this up, or just one more stereotype?

 

 

 

I'm not stretching your words. Here you *SPECIFICALLY* state that we should curtail our activities because of the ignorant bigots who don't like it. Bullshit. Freedom means the freedom to do something / be / hold views that are / live a life that is unpopular.

 

congratulations. you get that oh-so-awesome feeling of self expression and you feel proud for standing up for yourself. in the process you turned a bunch of people against you. i was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were actually looking for results, not just that special feeling you get from marching down the street chanting stupid crap like "were here, were queer, get used to it."

 

And it's not "rubbing anyone's face in it" to simply demonstrate it. You (plural) rub our faces in your orientation every time you drive by in a car with "just married" written on it, or kiss in public without fear of being beaten up. The prevalence of strait sexuality is such that it's rubbed in the face of every non-straight every day. Yet you say us merely announcing our existence is "rubbing your face in it"? Bullshit. You are advocating a bigoted double-standard, where only straight displays of affection and sexuality are acceptable.

 

in my mind thats totally different. the straight couples kissing in public are still minding their own business, as are the lesbians making out in front of my math class each and every day. they arent stopping traffic for a day to march down the middle of a street in a crowded city declaring their sexuality to the populus.

 

 

 

These people would be against gay rights with or without a parade. The parade just gives them something to lash out at. Dak is right, you're confusing the target of homophobia with the cause.

 

IM not confusing anything. these people TELL ME thats their biggest problem with it. maybe THEY are confused, im the messenger.

 

 

And you're how old? Waiting to come over to our team, eh?

 

i dont recall making any assumptions about you, id appreciate it if you didnt pass judgement on my lack of experience, or for all you know, my desire to keep my private life private. in other words, dont be a dick.

 

 

 

I'd bet you actually haven't, through a common mental trick of simply remembering the notable events. That's not against you, that's just how the mind works. I'd bet that if you actually took a notepad with you and, over the course of a month noted down every time you saw anyone making out, you'd find that you've seen more straight couples making out. But your brain pays more attention and is more likely to remember novel or unusual stimuli, so when asked to recall, the ratio will be skewed.

 

youd be wrong. during my 5 years at that highschool (5 because i stopped by in 8th grade, not because i failed) i saw exactly one straight couple making out, once. there were 2 or 3 lesbian couples i saw making out EVERY DAY.

 

Suffice to say, in the vast majority of the world, you see far more public straight affection than public gay affection. All we want is the same right, to be able to kiss or hold hands in public without being insulted or attacked.

yet again, i saw the girls making out everyday, without anyone so much as saying anything, but, as i said, i probably live in a much more sheltered area than most.

[Thomas Kirby]

From what I've seen, gay-bashing is an obsession that small and large groups of men can have, and I think that this obsession easily exceeds the bounds within which it can be described as other than mentally ill. The way some of them go on and on about it, it is actually a viable strategy to sit with a group of gay men so that you can talk about sports and the weather like normal people.

[-Demosthenes-]

How is there any kind of "gay" class or minority? Homosexuals kinda of a behavior and a frame of mind. Who cares? That's not a class anymore than people who like orange soda is a class.

 

There is no prejudice or discrimination. Laws that prohibit two men (or women) from adopting don't say anything about "sexual preference". Personally I don't care what your "secual preference" is, all it means is that two men (or women) can't adopt, wether they be straght, gay, or anything else!

 

The same is true of marraige between two of the same sex, and any law that may prohibit it in the future (which I doubt will be ever passed anyways). It would prohibit marraige between people of the same sex, not nessicarily gay. They wouldn't let two straight people of the same sex be married either, I don't see any prejudice.

 

The law applies to everyone the same, everyone is equal.

[Callipygous]

How is there any kind of "gay" class or minority? Homosexuals kinda of a behavior and a frame of mind. Who cares? That's not a class anymore than people who like orange soda is a class.

 

There is no prejudice or discrimination. Laws that prohibit two men (or women) from adopting don't say anything about "sexual preference". Personally I don't care what your "secual preference" is' date=' all it means is that two men (or women) can't adopt, wether they be straght, gay, or anything else! [/quote']

 

thats the most retarded thing i have ever read. what if they made it illegal for anyone to marry a latino? thats not biased against the latinos! its banning everyone equally!

 

The same is true of marraige between two of the same sex, and any law that may prohibit it in the future (which I doubt will be ever passed anyways). It would prohibit marraige between people of the same sex, not nessicarily gay. They wouldn't let two straight people of the same sex be married either, I don't see any prejudice.

 

The law applies to everyone the same, everyone is equal.

 

ok... so they can get married, they just have to do it with a person they have no attraction to.

 

just because its not directly prejudiced (doesnt specifically say "gay people cant get married") doesnt mean it isnt designed to unjustly limit the rights of a certain portion of the population.

 

 

editted for civility

[-Demosthenes-]

thats the most retarded thing i have ever read. what if they made it illegal for anyone to marry a latino? thats not biased against the latinos! its banning everyone equally!

Hmmm, never thought of it that way. I guess you're right, it is hard to see both sides sometimes.

[Mokele]

People can only be as equal as they actually are; if two men genuinely cant do as good a job as a man and a woman, then they are (by nature) not equal in their ability to raise a child, and so theres no need for the law to allow them to adopt in order to bestow equality upon them.

 

While I agree in principle, there's two problems:

1) What studies have been done have failed to find any statistically significant difference in the well-being and psychological adjustment of children raised by two same-sex parents, so there's no empirical data to support the notion of a difference.

2) Even if there was, there are far more children awaiting adoption than there are parents adopting (gay and straight combined). As such, the more valid question is "Will 2 same-sex parents be better than life in a series of foster homes?", to which the answer is pretty obviously "yes".

 

good point. (but thats two words )

 

D'oh!

 

i have heard this an aweful lot. i have also heard that its just a standard defence mechanism that doesnt actually have anything behind it. are then any reputable sources to back this up, or just one more stereotype?

 

Second section down from the top displays a university study showing that homophobic men are much more likely to be aroused by gay porn. The reference at the bottom of the page is:

Henry Adams, Lester Wright Jr. & Bethany Lohr "Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?", Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 105 (1996), P. 440-445

 

Sadly, because I'm currently on vacation, I can't actually retrieve the full article (my school doesn't give out their passwords for journal archives, the bastards).

 

you get that oh-so-awesome feeling of self expression and you feel proud for standing up for yourself. in the process you turned a bunch of people against you. i was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were actually looking for results, not just that special feeling you get from marching down the street chanting stupid crap like "were here, were queer, get used to it."

 

First, as I said before, I have seen *no* evidence or even sufficient logic that pride parades have any negative impact.

 

Secondly, what's wrong with doing something for the sake of community unity? The gay community is typically rather tight-knit in most large cities, and it's nice to be able to celebrate that, especially in places where it must remain hidden most of the year.

 

Third, as I have also pointed out, the people most likely to feel mad about such parades would not have been swayed anyway, so there is no net loss. It's all about the 'swing voters'.

 

in my mind thats totally different. the straight couples kissing in public are still minding their own business, as are the lesbians making out in front of my math class each and every day. they arent stopping traffic for a day to march down the middle of a street in a crowded city declaring their sexuality to the populus.

 

We shouldn't have to, except for the fact that the populace tends to do things like make laws criminalizing private sexual behavior if they aren't reminded that there are faces and people behind the word.

 

Believe me, I'd *like* to see a day when Pride Parades are as anachronistic as black civil rights marches, but until then, as I have *amply* supported, visibility is absolutely necessary to ensure progress.

 

IM not confusing anything. these people TELL ME thats their biggest problem with it. maybe THEY are confused, im the messenger.

 

Yes, probably poor phrasing on my part. They *claim* that's their biggest problem, but in reality it's much more deeply rooted than that. If they didn't have a problem with homosexuality and the expression and acknowledgement of it, they wouldn't be upset by the pride parade.

 

youd be wrong. during my 5 years at that highschool (5 because i stopped by in 8th grade, not because i failed) i saw exactly one straight couple making out, once. there were 2 or 3 lesbian couples i saw making out EVERY DAY.

 

Well, your school, as you admit, is in an atypical area. And how many gay boys have you seen making out in public? Care to guess why so few?

 

yet again, i saw the girls making out everyday, without anyone so much as saying anything, but, as i said, i probably live in a much more sheltered area than most.

 

True. I grew up in the Deep South, where any sort of public homosexual intimacy (especially between males) at school would most assuredly result in one hell of a beating. And I'm not exagerating, either. Out in the rest of the US, away from places like San Fran and NYC's Greenwich village, you almost never see same-sex intimacy in public, because it's usually met with harassment or violence.

 

And I'm not just basing this on statistics, I'm basing this on things that have happened to my friends.

 

How is there any kind of "gay" class or minority? Homosexuals kinda of a behavior and a frame of mind. Who cares? That's not a class anymore than people who like orange soda is a class.

 

Because society has decided to put LBGT people into a class, and to consistently abuse, attack, and deny rights to that group based solely on who we are attracted to.

 

And this 'frame of mind' is an immutable, biologically-based orientation, not just a perspective.

 

As such, we have a class defined by both biology (brain structure and innate psychology) and socieity (behavior). How does that mean it isn't a valid class?

 

There is no prejudice or discrimination.

 

Bullshit. One name: Matthew Shepard. Look him up if you have to, and *then* tell me there is no prejudice or discrimination.

 

Or how about a man I met about a year back who, upon losing his partner of 10 years, had to deal with his partner's disapproving family denying him access to the hospital so he never even got to say goodbye, not even informing him (and barring him from) the funeral, and overturning the will (legally) so that they took the house, car, and *joint* bank accounts, leaving him with nothing. All of this was done *legally*, with the complicity of hospital staff, funerary staff, lawyers, etc. Now, tell me there is no discrimination.

 

And these are not isolated incidents. I've had friends who have been attacked because of their sexuality. There where *thousands* of such crimes reported just last year, dozens ending in homicides.

 

The same is true of marraige between two of the same sex, and any law that may prohibit it in the future (which I doubt will be ever passed anyways). It would prohibit marraige between people of the same sex, not nessicarily gay. They wouldn't let two straight people of the same sex be married either, I don't see any prejudice.

 

Except straights don't *want* to marry people of the same sex, and gays don't *want* to marry people of the opposite sex.

 

You're looking at the wrong level. Look at the couple level. One couple *can* marry, the other cannot. Why? Because a law that was created *PURELY* to discriminate against gay couples.

 

Mokele

[Sayonara]

Before anyone starts whining about warning points, know that everyone who continued to argue an off-topic point after Dave's request has received a warning for being off-topic.

 

Please refer to the o/p if you forgot what this thread is about.

[MetaFrizzics]

What I don't understand is what these teenagers were doing in Iraq in the first place.

(besides being gay I mean.)

[atinymonkey]

Well, they were Iranian which probably means they were born and grew up in Iran. I presume they had not thought about moving countries.

[Sayonara]

I doubt many Iranian teenagers have the means to emigrate, regardless of their orientation.

[Thomas Kirby]

It's hard enough to get out of a little town in Kansas. They don't kill you, they just make you wish you were dead. Or so I'm told, anyway.

 

A man is marked as some kind of "faggot", he lives the rest of his life in hell.

[MetaFrizzics]

Wow. Getting an accidental but embarrassing 'boner' in swim-class must be extra-special in Iran.

[MulderMan]

does anyone have any information on this Islamic Sharia law? i dont see how a religion can dictate sexuality.

[MetaFrizzics]

I have some translations into English on homosexuality and Islam sold in a religious bookstore. The last I looked at them, I thought they were incredibly semi-literate hysterical treatese. I will post some quotations from them if you wish.

[Thomas Kirby]

I get the impression that someone a few hundred years ago had his own Jerry Falwell.

 

I have some translations into English on homosexuality and Islam sold in a religious bookstore. The last I looked at them, I thought they were incredibly semi-literate hysterical treatese. I will post some quotations from them if you wish.

[john5746]

does anyone have any information on this Islamic Sharia law? i dont see how a religion can dictate sexuality.

 

Sharia Law

 

Looks like any sex outside of marriage is adultry. Since homosexuals cannot marry, it is automatically adultry.