Bill Maher Vs Ann Coulter (split from M vc C debunking wall arguments)

[Outrider]

On 1/30/2019 at 3:55 PM, rangerx said:

Indeed, Coulter is extreme in her views and outrageous in her statements. Maher, although decidedly liberal is centrist and articulates in common sense terms.

Not really.

They are both hacks for their perspective "sides".

Or more to the point they are comedians saying whatever they think "sells" at the moment. I think it would be a mistake to let your political views to be shaped by a comedian. Any comedian. 

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Outrider said:

Not really.

They are both hacks for their perspective "sides".

Or more to the point they are comedians saying whatever they think "sells" at the moment. I think it would be a mistake to let your political views to be shaped by a comedian. Any comedian. 

I was unaware the Coulter has ever made a living doing comedy (i.e. being a comedian)

Do you have a reference for this?

[rangerx]

3 hours ago, Outrider said:

Not really.

They are both hacks for their perspective "sides".

Or more to the point they are comedians saying whatever they think "sells" at the moment. I think it would be a mistake to let your political views to be shaped by a comedian. Any comedian. 

Ann Coulter is neither a comedian, nor had her own show, ever. For decades, Bill Maher has. He hosts liberals and conservatives and they discuss things like adults and in almost every case from the middle ground. He's no fan of snowflakes on either side of the coin and often derides liberals for not being ballsy enough to properly deal with the scandalous antics of today's conservatives.

Coulter speaks in extremes for the purpose of shock value and division and little else. She has no skill sets other than appealing to the lowest common denominator among  conservatives.

Edited February 2, 2019 by rangerx

[Ten oz]

42 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Ann Coulter is neither a comedian, nor had her own show, ever. For decades, Bill Maher has. He hosts liberals and conservatives and they discuss things like adults and in almost every case from the middle ground. He's no fan of snowflakes on either side of the coin and often derides liberals for not being ballsy enough to properly deal with the scandalous antics of today's conservatives.

Coulter speaks in extremes for the purpose of shock value and division and little else. She has no skill sets other than appealing to the lowest common denominator among  conservatives.

Ann Coulter is a regular speaker at CPAC and much of the language she has used in the 12 books she's authored has been coveted into campaign slogans by numerous Republicans. Ann Coulter is more directly embraced by the Republican party than Bill Maher is by the Democratic Party. Ann Coulter position in media is weaker than Bill Maher's position in media but her influence position as a party member and her political influence is far greater than Bill Maher's. 

To be honest I think Bill Maher has become totally irrelevant. To me the first sign of getting old is to start complaining about the young. Bill Maher complains about the impact of PC language on comedy, free streaming of media, and etc. He has become a cranky old man who is out of touch with the way younger generations experience the world. Have Julian Assange on his show in Aug. of 2016 in the midst of Russia's attack on the election and giving Julian Assange the benefit of the doubt was an example of how un-savvy Bill Maher is. 

Ann Coulter is more relevant in 2019 than Bill Maher and has a better understanding of who her audience is. I think Bill Maher has become a liability in that he doesn't speak for Democrats yet is perceived to.

[rangerx]

39 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

To be honest I think Bill Maher has become totally irrelevant.

His show is among the top 25 (at 13 last week) original cable shows among adults 18-49.

Hardly irrelevant, no less totally.

[Outrider]

2 hours ago, swansont said:

I was unaware the Coulter has ever made a living doing comedy (i.e. being a comedian)

Do you have a reference for this?

Wikipedia has her listed as a "social commentator". Whatever that is.

I guess I just think of her as a comic because the few times I've listened to her speak I couldn't take her seriously.  FWIW I didn't find it all that humorous either.

Perhaps I shouldn't have commented at all because its been years since I gave Bill or Ann any of my time.

1 hour ago, rangerx said:

Ann Coulter is neither a comedian, nor had her own show, ever. For decades, Bill Maher has. He hosts liberals and conservatives and they discuss things like adults and in almost every case from the middle ground. He's no fan of snowflakes on either side of the coin and often derides liberals for not being ballsy enough to properly deal with the scandalous antics of today's conservatives.

Coulter speaks in extremes for the purpose of shock value and division and little else. She has no skill sets other than appealing to the lowest common denominator among  conservatives.

Ok maybe your right. I withdraw my claim that BM is a political hack.

But I still think that AC and BM say many things just for shock value and I think its a shame when people shape their political values around these kinds of things.

[Ten oz]

22 minutes ago, rangerx said:

His show is among the top 25 (at 13 last week) original cable shows among adults 18-49.

Hardly irrelevant, no less totally.

In context to politics he is totally irrelevant. Game of Thrones has a large audience but are also irrelevant to political discussions.  

15 minutes ago, Outrider said:

Ok maybe your right. I withdraw my claim that BM is a political hack.

I think Bill Maher is a hack with the caveat of as it applies to politics. Whatever Bill Maher once was Comedian, Actor, Late  Night host, or etc his current schtick is political commentary. He is a hack at it. He likes to line issues he can knock down with one liners and uses his comedian roots as a shield whenever he gets called out on his B.S.. 

As a comedian he was funny. As a political pundit I find him self adsorbed, capricious, and arrogant.

*I use to be a fan and have seen his perform stand up live. 

[rangerx]

6 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

In context to politics he is totally irrelevant. Game of Thrones has a large audience but are also irrelevant to political discussions.  

Game of Thrones doesn't espouse American politics in their screenplay, but Bill Maher's format does, on every level in every segment.

That said, it's true he never speaks at Democratic events, nor is he embraced by the party for his policies and statements. He is old fashioned, even square at times, but make no mistake he's deeply concerned and frustrated by the current state of affairs in the USA and conveys that in meaningful, often hilarious ways.
 

[Ten oz]

58 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Game of Thrones doesn't espouse American politics in their screenplay, but Bill Maher's format does, on every level in every segment.

By this logic John Oliver is automatically more relevant than Maher because his ratings are better.  I don't think ratings translate into political relevance. 

58 minutes ago, rangerx said:

That said, it's true he never speaks at Democratic events, nor is he embraced by the party for his policies and statements. 

Maher himself has lamented this fact numerous times on his shows. In my opinion Maher feels entitled to the sort of surrogate positions within the Democratic party Ann Coulter enjoys within the Republican party. 

58 minutes ago, rangerx said:

He is old fashioned, even square at times, but make no mistake he's deeply concerned and frustrated by the current state of affairs in the USA and conveys that in meaningful, often hilarious ways.

I do not know Maher personally so I can't speak to what he is or isn't deeply concerned about. As a kid (teenager) I watch his ABC Politically Incorrect show. Bill Maher had Ann Coulter on as a guest time and time again: 1997 , 1998, 2000, again in 2000,  and 2001. Between the shows Politically Incorrect and Real Time I have no idea how many total times Bill Maher has had Ann Coulter on but it is a lot. Bill Maher has been arguing on air with Ann Coulter for decades. In my opinion it is all a gag. Just a big act to draw ratings. Bill Maher has helped Ann Coulter's career by having her on to promote her books and appearances. Self promotion is why people go on show's like Bill Maher's show and no one I can think of has been on more than Ann Coulter. Their professional relationship goes back over 20 years. They scratch each others backs. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Ten oz

[rangerx]

9 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Self promotion is why people go on show's like Bill Maher's show and no one I can think of has been on more than Ann Coulter. Their professional relationship goes back over 20 years. They scratch each others backs.

No doubt about it.

My point being, Maher (albeit loosely) tends to lean to the middle, but Coulter digs in at the fringe. Most of the republicans on his show, allude to much of what he's getting at, where Coulter invariably ends on something really inflammatory, repugnant or absurd.

Political differences. Those things influence swing voters, a lot.

[Ten oz]

35 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Political differences. Those things influence swing voters, a lot.

Bill Maher endorsed Ralph Nadar in 00' which helped elect Bush. Then in Aug. of 2016 in the midst of Russia's propaganda attacks he had on Julian Assange. WikiLeaks played role in helping to give Trump. 

Maher knew about the Russia too btw. He questioned Assange about it, accepted Assange's denials, and ended the interview praising Assange. 

In my opinion Maher has not been historically helpful far as influencing swing voters goes. I think he has caused more harm than done good by continuously giving people like Ann Coulter a platform to spread their lies from. 

[rangerx]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Bill Maher endorsed Ralph Nadar in 00' which helped elect Bush. Then in Aug. of 2016 in the midst of Russia's propaganda attacks he had on Julian Assange. WikiLeaks played role in helping to give Trump. 

Maher knew about the Russia too btw. He questioned Assange about it, accepted Assange's denials, and ended the interview praising Assange. 

In my opinion Maher has not been historically helpful far as influencing swing voters goes. I think he has caused more harm than done good by continuously giving people like Ann Coulter a platform to spread their lies from. 

You're right about Assange in that Maher defaulted to him. Whistle blower v foreign agent, if you will. Bilked, but that's a high bar. Coulter and most republicans deny a bar even exists.

I never trusted Assange from the get-go, knowing full well that sort of thing may lead to insidious things and wow, did it ever.

They barbecued Maher over the "cowardly act" comment. It even cost him his job and show. I mean really,? The Show was called Policially Incorrect, WTF?

HBO picked him up in a heartbeat and he's been good for ratings ever since. He's at home in his delivery, his jokes are funny and current. His guests are smart and the discussion is usually lighthearted and to the point.

That's a far cry from Coulter, who leaves me scoffing most time she speaks.

[John Cuthber]

Isn't the fundamental difference that, for a living,  one tells jokes and the other tells lies?

[Ten oz]

9 hours ago, rangerx said:

You're right about Assange in that Maher defaulted to him. Whistle blower v foreign agent, if you will. Bilked, but that's a high bar. Coulter and most republicans deny a bar even exists.

Ann Coulter has no bar. Ann Coulter is a complete liar. Comparing the level to which they lie wasn't my point. Comparing the level to which each is a political asset to the Democratic or Republican party was. Ann Coulter is a greater asset to the Republican Party than Bill Maher is to the Democratic party. 

9 hours ago, rangerx said:

HBO picked him up in a heartbeat and he's been good for ratings ever since. He's at home in his delivery, his jokes are funny and current. His guests are smart and the discussion is usually lighthearted and to the point.

I never said he  wasn't a talented comedian. Dennis Miller is a talented comedian too. Bill Maher getting good ratings doesn't make him more politically relevant or a greater political asset. 

9 hours ago, rangerx said:

That's a far cry from Coulter, who leaves me scoffing most time she speaks.

.....and yet Bill Maher has been bringing her on his show and giving her a platform for over 20's. The whole thing is an act. From Stephen Colbert to Bill Maher audiences on the left make the mistake of confusing entertainers with actual political commentators (my opinion).

Stephen Colbert for example hosted most of the Republican candidates in 2016 and was gracious to them all. He even had Trump himself on his show, Link. Stephen joked a bit then sat by and  allowed Trump to sell his wall uninterrupted. Colbert just had Chris Christie on last week to help sell his book and the interview was fun and relaxed. Like Maher Colbert is an entertainer and not a  political commentator. On the Right they seldom ever confuse messaging with entertainment. It is one of the reason's Megan Kelly failed attempting to host an entertainment show. Her time on FoxNews had conditioned her to be combative and on message. Not light and agreeable. Where an interviewer like Maher has learned to subtly accent his guests to help perpetuate a conversation and make guests appear interesting Megan Kelly had only ever learned to blunt discussion and leave people bare in unflattering positions. Bill Maher will always through someone like Ann Coulter a bone to get them out of trouble during an interview. It is a safe space for her.  

People like Ann Coulter are always 100% on message and never allow the other side to get a word out unchallenged. Ann Coulter has a message and is constantly selling it every time her mouth is open. Bill Maher has a style but not a message. Bill Maher's act is political but it is just an act. Bill Maher has had on liars like Ann Coulter and Foreign Agents like Julian Assange yet the only person I recall Bill Maher being angry with was Ben Affleck of all people. Ben labelled a position Maher was taking as Islamophobic and Bill Maher was having no part of it. Meanwhile Maher regularly always Coulter to come on and lie her @ss off.  

[Outrider]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

From Stephen Colbert to Bill Maher audiences on the left make the mistake of confusing entertainers with actual political commentators (my opinion).

That was my original point so we agree it seems on that at least.

But it's not only on the left. From Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck to SNL I think many Americans get their political commentary from the worst places.

I know RL and GB are not comedians but to me they act more like comics than pundits. 

[Ten oz]

14 minutes ago, Outrider said:

I know RL and GB are not comedians but to me they act more like comics than pundits. 

Glenn Beck use to be a comedian. He spent a couple decades doing various morning radio routines centered around prank phone calls and stunts vs other local radio shows. As satellite radio, music streaming, podcasts, and etc became more popular talk radio grew increasingly conservative. Seems older males were/are the only ones still listening to terrestrial radio in large numbers. So Glenn Beck evolved into a conservative. Also Glenn Beck had substance issue early in his career. His shift to conservatism coincided with his sobriety and conversion to being Mormon.  At least that is how Glenn Beck sells the abrupt change. 

It is all an act. Beck, Coulter, Maher, and etc are just making a living selling ideology. None of them are authentic. 

[swansont]

3 hours ago, Outrider said:

That was my original point so we agree it seems on that at least.

But it's not only on the left. From Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck to SNL I think many Americans get their political commentary from the worst places.

I know RL and GB are not comedians but to me they act more like comics than pundits. 

Where should we be getting our political commentary?

Many comedians do social commentary, and politics is a subset of that. And for some topics, comedians will tread in places others are more hesitant to go. Making a jokes makes raising the issue more palatable.

Pundits, it seems to me, get work because they are willing to get in front of the camera, not because they are particularly insightful. As has been observed above, some of them lie, quite freely.

[Ten oz]

10 minutes ago, swansont said:

 Where should we be getting our political commentary?

In my opinion, professional journalism accountable to an editor and facts. I think far too many people look to people like Maher and Coulter for political insight. 

[swansont]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

In my opinion, professional journalism accountable to an editor and facts. I think far too many people look to people like Maher and Coulter for political insight. 

Do they provide commentary, or do they report?

One problem we have is that some journalists go out of their way not to provide commentary, for fear of appearing biased. So we get “both sides” false equivalency, and reporters not challenging obvious lies and untruths.

[Ten oz]

6 minutes ago, swansont said:

Do they provide commentary, or do they report?

One problem we have is that some journalists go out of their way not to provide commentary, for fear of appearing biased. So we get “both sides” false equivalency, and reporters not challenging obvious lies and untruths.

True but between a journalist providing false equivalencies out of forced sense of integrity and a comedian just rendering an opinion I'll take the journalist.  I find that even impartial reporting has a modicum of commentary. The truth often forces a verdict be rendered.  

To the well informed Bill Maher, Stephen Colbert, Trevor Noah, and etc serve as sources of satirical relief. For those who are not well informed and watch them to become informed they are inadequate sources.  

[rangerx]

7 hours ago, Ten oz said:

0To the well informed Bill Maher, Stephen Colbert, Trevor Noah, and etc serve as sources of satirical relief. For those who are not well informed and watch them to become informed they are inadequate sources.  

I don't expect journalism from talk shows. I watch talk shows for a panel discussion about political events.

Journalism dropped the ball when it stopped correspondent news and co-opted the discussion panel.

[Ten oz]

7 hours ago, rangerx said:

I don't expect journalism from talk shows. I watch talk shows for a panel discussion about political events.

Journalism dropped the ball when it stopped correspondent news and co-opted the discussion panel.

Yes, there is a lot of bad news programs out there but that does make Maher any better by default.