Shamima Begum

[Raider5678]

6 hours ago, Carrock said:

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47301623

I read the link. Citizenship can be revoked as long as she doesn't become stateless. At the moment, according to Bangladesh law, she is a citizen of Bangladesh. So if it comes down to who's doing something illegal, it's Bangladesh.

 

Either way, your narrative that she can be punished with something that those over 21 can't be, is completely false. It has much less to do with age, and more to do with if you have citizenship to another country or not. She turned her back on the UK. 15 at the time or not, she committed treason, and she's been convicted of that by extension of confession.(She confessed to committing something that is known as treason. So it's a confession to committing treason by extension.)

 

And finally, she doesn't want a citizenship to the UK. The second she lands on the ground, she'll be arrested, sentenced, and locked in prison for a significant period of time.

According to her, she's shocked the UK would do something like this. She thinks it's unjust that the UK sees her as a threat.

I mean. All she did was support ISIS. And say that the 22 civilians who died by a suicide bomber in her home country deserved it. 

How dare they? She's just an innocent little girl, after all. All these big mean men are just bullying her.

 

 

Stateless or not, I don't see why the UK can't just revoke her citizenship. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Raider5678

[DrP]

9 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Either way, your narrative that she can be punished with something that those over 21 can't be, is completely false

21 is irrelevant in the UK.   The age for becoming an adult is 18.

 

9 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

According to her, she's shocked the UK would do something like this. She thinks it's unjust that the UK sees her as a threat.

I mean. All she did was support ISIS. And say that the 22 civilians who died by a suicide bomber in her home country deserved it. 

How dare they? She's just an innocent little girl, after all. All these big mean men are just bullying her.

 

 

Stateless or not, I don't see why the UK can't just revoke her citizenship. 

I'm sure she'll be fine in Bangladesh. She'll be safely away from all those evil Brits she condones the killing of and went to war with by joining ISIS. 

We shouldn't hate her or pity her - let her go to Bangladesh and forget her.

 

... aaaaand it appears the undue media attention over this could be to cover the governments latest 15% stealth cuts in the UK fire service budget. 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by DrP

[Carrock]

19 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

And I agree. She deserves a trial to determine the punishment. But until then, she's already been convicted of high treason against the United Kingdom.

 

11 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Stateless or not, I don't see why the UK can't just revoke her citizenship. 

etc etc

This whole thread seems to be basically about whether due process, e.g. innocent until proved guilty etc, is a right or a privilege granted at the discretion of the government.

I'm done here.

[DrP]

17 minutes ago, Carrock said:

This whole thread seems to be basically about whether due process, e.g. innocent until proved guilty etc, is a right or a privilege granted at the discretion of the government.

There is no doubt here - she said it herself that she chose to leave the UK to join ISIS. There is no doubt to her guilt regarding that. Even if there is an appeal and she wins it - she deserves the uncertainty and fear she is experiencing now imo. Besides - how could you trust her again  -  words are cheap, you can't be certain she wont spy for ISIS cell groups or radicalize her ISIS child against us just because she goes on an anti radicalization course. 

There are those here that would lynch her without trial -  but I don't get on that well with that sort of people. I understand their anger though  -  she expects to come back here and have the British tax payer support the upbringing of her child. She chose to turn her back on our ways and joined a foregn army at war with us. What do you think the reaction of the British people is going to be?

 

 

[dimreepr]

18 hours ago, StringJunky said:

It's common knowledge and she acknowledges it. Conviction wrt to that should just be a formality; realistically.

Quote

She is guilty of being a member of IS.

 

 

what do you expect her to say when surrounded by them? All we know is she tried to be a member of ISIS.

1 hour ago, Carrock said:

 

etc etc

This whole thread seems to be basically about whether due process, e.g. innocent until proved guilty etc, is a right or a privilege granted at the discretion of the government.

I'm done here.

1

So much judgment with such a lack of evidence seems emotional.  

[DrP]

8 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

what do you expect her to say when surrounded by them? All we know is she tried to be a member of ISIS.

What do you expect the British public to say about it? Especially the brexiteers.   She tried and was successful. I see your point though  -  she'd have to say she still supports them else they'd probably kill her... but she DOES support them. She left our country to go and join them as a baby maker.

Do we want that baby back here? Will it be safe even?  When right wing nutters will kill a politician for saving the lives of hundreds of refugees and is labelled a traitor to her country then what kind of life is the child going to have here as the son/daughter of some ISIS freedom fighter? Is the father presumed dead?

What's wrong with Bangladesh anyway? If she is legally a citizen then why doesn't she go there - it's 90% Muslim so she'd fit right in.

 

 

 

[dimreepr]

Just now, DrP said:

She tried and was successful.

how do you know?

7 minutes ago, DrP said:

She left our country to go and join them as a baby maker.

how do you know?

[DrP]

Just now, dimreepr said:

how do you know?

That's what was reported. Are you suggesting she might NOT have left the UK to go and join ISIS as a baby machine? You said yourself she tried. 4 years later she wants home  - I am missing how you think she might have gone to Syria for any other reason.  I saw no reports of kidnapping. No one is disputing she isn't entitled to a trial. I'm sure we'd give her one if she comes back here. Getting back might not be so easy though.  
 

Do you think the British public should welcome her back like a prodigal son or something?

 

[dimreepr]

8 minutes ago, DrP said:

What do you expect the British public to say about it? Especially the brexiteers.

I would hope half of us wait and see.

4 minutes ago, DrP said:

as a baby machine

???

11 minutes ago, DrP said:

Do you think the British public should welcome her back like a prodigal son or something?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son  

Quote

However, the younger son is prodigal (i.e., wasteful and extravagant) and squanders his fortune, eventually becoming destitute. The younger son is forced to return home empty-handed and intends to beg his father to accept him back as a servant.

 

yes...

[Carrock]

One more response as you quoted me...

2 hours ago, DrP said:

There are those here that would lynch her without trial -  but I don't get on that well with that sort of people.

Such people don't have executive privilege and could be tried and convicted. The government can do what it likes with no fear of legal sanctions for those who made its decisions, even if unlawful.

 

1 hour ago, DrP said:

There is no doubt here - she said it herself that she chose to leave the UK to join ISIS. There is no doubt to her guilt regarding that.

About 20% - 50%(depends on source) of US death row inmates exonerated by improved DNA forensics had made false confessions.

No worries about informal, probably edited interviews as evidence of her guilt?

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

what do you expect her to say when surrounded by them? All we know is she tried to be a member of ISIS.

Several of these factors probably involved in her 'confession:'

Quote

According to the Innocence Project, Damon and Barry's experience mirrors the trends that occur in nationwide wrongful conviction cases caused by false confessions. Factors include:

•duress 
•coercion 
•intoxication 
•diminished capacity 
•mental impairment 
•ignorance of the law 
•fear of violence 
•the actual infliction of harm 
•the threat of a harsh sentence 
•misunderstanding the situation 

Regarding his false confession, Damon had this to say (minutes 5:25 - 5:59 in video):

"I used to be one of the people who believed that someone would never confess to something they didn't do and society as a whole believes that. But yet, here I am, here I sit.

 

1 hour ago, DrP said:

Besides - how could you trust her again  -  words are cheap, you can't be certain she wont spy for ISIS cell groups or radicalize her ISIS child against us just because she goes on an anti radicalization course.

By the same logic every criminal you can't be certain won't commit another crime should be locked up for life. Should there be one law for patriotic criminals and another for politicals?

9 minutes ago, DrP said:

Do we want that baby back here?

As the child of a political I suppose you don't want due process for him either. Criminal citizens can freely enter even if 'we' don't want them back here.

[DrP]

18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

However, the younger son is prodigal (i.e., wasteful and extravagant) and squanders his fortune, eventually becoming destitute. The younger son is forced to return home empty-handed and intends to beg his father to accept him back as a servant.

Except she didn't leave to squander her fortune, she left to join a terrorist organisation that have murdered millions... and she isn't begging to be a servant either from what I can tell.  She might now - I guess she'd say anything. As usual - I see both sides of the argument.

 

7 minutes ago, Carrock said:

As the child of a political I suppose you don't want due process for him either

I never said she shouldn't get due process. It's clearly debatable what that process is. I guess it's up to the parents to decide what's best for the baby - I would guess social services will take it from her if she returns. As it is she is no longer a British citizen (unless she wins her appeal) - so I do not know what the 'due process' is. Whatever it is it is doing a good job of keeping the British media occupied whilst the gov stealth through more public service cuts.

14 minutes ago, Carrock said:

Several of these factors probably involved in her 'confession:'

None of these were issues when she chose to go out there. She went of her own accord (or so it has been reported - unless the press made that up).  Maybe she was lied to and was disillusioned when she got there - some things are a little hard to come back from though (like ISIL/ISIS).  

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

Except she didn't leave to squander her fortune,

you don't see the parallel?

[DrP]

13 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

you don't see the parallel?

Of course I do - that's why I bought it up  -  but it isn't the same, what she has done is far beyond that...  also the majority of the British public are not born again Christians with the desire to forgive. I am sceptical that she will be accepted and welcomed by many here. You are deluded imo if you think she will be.

 

 

[dimreepr]

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

Of course I do - that's why I bought it up  -  but it isn't the same

then you don't.

[Carrock]

4 minutes ago, DrP said:

46 minutes ago, Carrock said:

Several of these factors probably involved in her 'confession:'

....

•ignorance of the law

...

•misunderstanding the situation 

None of these were issues when she chose to go out there. She went of her own accord (or so it has been reported - unless the press made that up).

Maybe she was lied to and was disillusioned when she got there - some things are a little hard to come back from though (like ISIL/ISIS).  

 

She may have been lied to but understood the law and the situation and may have been disillusioned when she discovered the situation was as she expected ... really.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amira_Abase%2C_Shamima_Begum_and_Kadiza_Sultana

Quote

At a 2015 Home Affairs Select Committee, then Metropolitan Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe stated that they would not face criminal charges if they returned to the United Kingdom.^[10]

.....

Contrary to the stance of the Metropolitan Police, Cameron said, "Whoever has gone out to join a terrorist organisation is breaking the law and has to face the consequences of breaking the law and we have to let the law take its course in the proper way".^[13]

No criminal charges so far....

[dimreepr]

11 minutes ago, DrP said:

also the majority of the British public are not born again Christians with the desire to forgive. I am sceptical that she will be accepted and welcomed by many here. You are deluded imo if you think she will be.

3

by what metric?

[DrP]

22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

then you don't.

I am certain she wont be welcomed back to the UK in the way the prodical son was welcomed by his father.

 

11 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

by what metric?

So you think that the consensus of the British public are going to welcome her back like a prodical son with celebrations and feasting that she has returned home?  I won't accuse you of being deluded  -  we will wait and see what happens.

 

23 minutes ago, Carrock said:

She may have been lied to but understood the law and the situation and may have been disillusioned when she discovered the situation was as she expected

Diddums.

So - IF she makes it back then she can face the law. Until then I will loose very little sleep over it.

 

[dimreepr]

1 minute ago, DrP said:

I am certain she wont be welcomed back to the UK in the way the prodical son was welcomed by his father.

No shit, Sherlock...

[Carrock]

21 minutes ago, DrP said:

Diddums.

So... I pointed out you have contradictory opinions, you ignored that and every other point, selectively quoted my post to change its meaning, and responded 'Diddums.'

 

 

[DrP]

18 hours ago, Carrock said:

So... I pointed out you have contradictory opinions, you ignored that and every other point, selectively quoted my post to change its meaning, and responded 'Diddums.'

 

 

We'll watch the story unfold in the press and see what happens. I don't know her personally.  Maybe you are right and she was coerced into going out there against her will. we'll see.

Whatever happens - she will have to face a lot of questioning if she ever gets back here. 

 

[Carrock]

36 minutes ago, DrP said:

Maybe you are right and she was coerced into going out there against her will. we'll see.

You have attributed to me a view I have not stated and do not hold.

Still, that's better than quoting part of a sentence to change its meaning.

You haven't broken any forum rules and your opinion of due process is clear.

 

On 1/21/2018 at 1:26 PM, swansont said:

Furthermore, changing what others have written for the purpose of misquotation is equally unacceptable

 

 

This is meant to apply to willful changes to the material, making it appear that the member said something which they did not. I suppose it's just not obvious that this is dishonest, and as it happens now and again, we've codified it.

 

[DrP]

Just now, Carrock said:

You have attributed to me a view I have not stated and do not hold.

Sorry - maybe I misunderstood your point. Being honest - I care little for the subject. You need to discuss it with the millions of brexit voters and right wingers that seem to hate her  -  maybe she is an easy target for their xenophobia and misplaced anger.

I am just being honest about my personal feelings when I say I see both sides.  I understand their anger and disgust at her past decision...  I also see how she can be pitied for being so misled (although some would argue she was not misled and ISIS has it right). She is a fellow human being in trouble  -  although I feel there are more deserving of my personal sympathy.

 

 

[dimreepr]

2 hours ago, DrP said:

Sorry - maybe I misunderstood your point. Being honest - I care little for the subject. You need to discuss it with the millions of brexit voters and right wingers that seem to hate her  -  maybe she is an easy target for their xenophobia and misplaced anger.

I am just being honest about my personal feelings when I say I see both sides.  I understand their anger and disgust at her past decision...  I also see how she can be pitied for being so misled (although some would argue she was not misled and ISIS has it right). She is a fellow human being in trouble  -  although I feel there are more deserving of my personal sympathy.

1

It's not about who you care for - It's about what if that was me.

[MigL]

Apparently we have Canadian ( and American ) ISIS war brides wanting to be repatriated.
I say let them come back, have a trial, and jail them for any crimes.

Unless our Prime Minister decides to apologize to them, and give them millions of dollars, like he did with O Khadr.

[CharonY]

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

Unless our Prime Minister decides to apologize to them, and give them millions of dollars, like he did with O Khadr.

You forgot the knowingly violate their rights first, have them tortured and taint every evidence you could have to actually convict someone. That'll help. I agree with the first two sentences. Not the least because they would have prevented what happened in the last one.