Claims regarding sex and gender

[xray]

Particularly those made in the following article:

https://medium.com/@tomo.albanese/debunking-ben-shapiros-transgender-denialism-c39b090116e1

I am debating the author in the above article. I am xray there also.

I'm specifically curious what biology experts think regarding the claims here:

"

The six biological karyotype sexes that do not result in death to the fetus are:

• X — Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
• XX — Most common form of female
• XXY — Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
• XY — Most common form of male
• XYY — Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
• XXXY — Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births

Now, of the 7 Billion people in the world, this means that even if they only make up 1% of the population, we are talking about MILLIONS of people that are neither “male” nor “female” genetically. We can lump them into the category of “Intersex”, but we cannot dismiss their existence. Circumstances do not cease to exist simply because they complicate the neat boxes we try to stuff them into."

Karyotype sexes? Is that a correct way to refer to karyotypes, as sexes? Those with Turner's syndrome are neither male nor female? 

[MigL]

You are absolutely right; you cannot debunk the genetics.
And I don't think you'll get any arguments against the existence of those genetics.

What about when the difference is psychological ?
Say a woman who is trapped in a man's body ?
They have the genetic make-up of a male, but mentally, they see themselves as female.

And if you tell your doctor they give you a sex change ( not that readily ); what are you then, if not transgendered ?
But, if you tell your doctor you think you're Napoleon, they put you in a padded cell.

Now, I'm a firm believer that whatever makes you happy and doesn't affect me, is your business and perfectly fine.
But why are the two mental delusions treated differently ?

( nothing would make me happier than having a Napoleonic Empire in Europe and marching on Russia )
 

[iNow]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

why are the two mental delusions treated differently ?

Because they are different and only one is a delusion. 

[MigL]

You can't just state it.
I'm here for discussion, so please elaborate.

[iNow]

You conflated transsexualism with delusion. You made that assertion, even if unintentionally. You were wrong and dismissive, suggesting that it was like believing oneself to be Napoleon, which is disrespectful and ignorant. 

[MigL]

It very well may have been a poor choice of words.
But again, you have simply asserted it and not given your reasons for thinking so.
Please explain how and why the two are different.
( If I'm ignorant, should you not educate me ? )

( and Napoleon is long dead, I don't think he'd be offended by my ignorance )

Edited February 21, 2019 by MigL

[xray]

Can you guys get a room, please? I know it's common for threads to morph and discussions split off, but I started this thread to ask a few factual questions and they haven't been addressed yet.

[MigL]

Sorry, I thought I had in the first part of my original response.

[Dagl1]

It definitely is a classification one can make, using XX or XY to determine biological sex, which then does lead into the problem that these syndroms exist. However in my opinion it is important to understand the function of these chromosomes.

In short:
Every human requires 1 X chromosome, when you have more than 1, the other becomes inactivated (X-inactivation), with the exception of some very specific regions (Pseudoautosomal regions). Having a Y chromosome is what makes someone have the male phenotype (of course there are some mutations, particularly to testosterone-signalling genes) which can lead to a female phenotype even with a Y chromosome. Thus having XXY or XXXY still in most ways makes you a (albeit with some functional problems) male. 

Gender is from what I understand the psychological sexual identity; so basically what sex they most identify with.

I hope I didn't make any mistakes, if you disagree or think I am wrong, I am happy to learn!

-Dagl

[swansont]

This is a topic that's come up before. It's not a citation for the statistics, but does break down some of the different cases

https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/112300-transgender-is-not-scientific-wrong/?tab=comments#comment-1029284

 

[Sensei]

10 hours ago, xray said:

• Now, of the 7 Billion people in the world, this means that even if they only make up 1% of the population,

1 per 1000 is 0.1% not 1%. After summing the largest cases of your numbers, we are receiving ~0.35%. That's 1 per 300 or so.

10 hours ago, xray said:

• we are talking about MILLIONS of people that are neither “male” nor “female” genetically.

Yes, if these numbers are accurate, there might be even 25-30 millions of people who are neither male nor female.

11 hours ago, xray said:

We can lump them into the category of “Intersex”, but we cannot dismiss their existence. Circumstances do not cease to exist simply because they complicate the neat boxes we try to stuff them into." 

Only extremists conservatives tend to dismiss their existence.. Or even worser, if they are attacking them, killing (like in Syria and in other totalitarian regimes).. in soft version of conservative community dismissing their existence by not allowing them to have their "sex"/"gender" mentioned in the papers. So affected people have to lies in the papers, as there is appropriate field to pick the right option for them..

10 hours ago, MigL said:

And if you tell your doctor they give you a sex change ( not that readily ); what are you then, if not transgendered ?
But, if you tell your doctor you think you're Napoleon, they put you in a padded cell. 

Now, I'm a firm believer that whatever makes you happy and doesn't affect me, is your business and perfectly fine.
But why are the two mental delusions treated differently ? 

Somebody who has body of male and feels internally female, finds attractive gender male.

Somebody who has body of female and feels internally male, finds attractive gender female. Which results in e.g. excitement and erection etc. Similar like with gays and lesbians.

It can be checked even on MRI, by providing photography of naked male/female, and checking brain activity. Similar with gays and lesbians (and pedophiles).

Brain activity during MRI can reveal sexual preference of a person.

 

[Strange]

5 minutes ago, Sensei said:

Somebody who has body of male and feels internally female, finds attractive gender male.

This seems to be confusing the gender that a person identifies as with their sexual orientation.

[xray]

I'll make understanding what I'm after simpler by copying and pasting my questions from the OP below:

 

Karyotype sexes? Is that a correct way to refer to karyotypes, as sexes? Those with Turner's syndrome are neither male nor female? 

[StringJunky]

31 minutes ago, xray said:

Those with Turner's syndrome are neither male nor female? 

They are female but with an x missing. The other x is a backup.

[J.C.MacSwell]

11 hours ago, xray said:

Can you guys get a room, please? I know it's common for threads to morph and discussions split off, but I started this thread to ask a few factual questions and they haven't been addressed yet.

With reference to Shapiro's arguments in your link, is he not basing his arguments on those with XY or XX only, and not based on denying that there are exceptions? 

[xray]

^ Can you rephrase your question please? I don't understand what you're asking.

[swansont]

1 hour ago, xray said:

I'll make understanding what I'm after simpler by copying and pasting my questions from the OP below:

 

Karyotype sexes? Is that a correct way to refer to karyotypes, as sexes? Those with Turner's syndrome are neither male nor female? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype

It would appear that sex is a subset of karyotype

[StringJunky]

I noticed this in the reference from the OP's link:

Quote

Recent neuro-science research suggests that sexual dimorphism of the brain may occur prenatally, implying that gender-typical  behaviour  may  be  determined prior to sex assignment at birth........  Chromosomes can be tested but sex is not so easily determined – our upbringing and society’s attitude towards us plays a crucial role in defining sex. 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1258/jrsm.2008.080086

 

[Arete]

Like almost any biological categorization, there are numerous exceptions to the general rule that there are two genders, and karyotypic variation (yes, that's the correct term) of the sex chromosomes is only one of them. Other examples of biological intersex include alpha reductase deficiency syndrome, androgen insensitivity syndrome, swyer syndrome, etc. 

And this isn't even touching on possible epigenetic causes of transgenderism, and what we don't know about their potential. 

In short, Ben Shaprio is comprehensively factually incorrect on the topic. 

[xray]

2 hours ago, StringJunky said:

They are female but with an x missing. The other x is a backup.

I think it's more complicated than that. If it were that simple, Turner's Syndrome wouldn't be a syndrome. 

 

1 hour ago, swansont said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyotype

It would appear that sex is a subset of karyotype

Where are you drawing that conclusion from that article and what exactly are you claiming? Are you claiming that each karyotype is a unique sex? Because that's what my question is regarding.

 

1 hour ago, Arete said:

Like almost any biological categorization, there are numerous exceptions to the general rule that there are two genders, and karyotypic variation (yes, that's the correct term) of the sex chromosomes is only one of them. Other examples of biological intersex include alpha reductase deficiency syndrome, androgen insensitivity syndrome, swyer syndrome, etc. 

And this isn't even touching on possible epigenetic causes of transgenderism, and what we don't know about their potential. 

In short, Ben Shaprio is comprehensively factually incorrect on the topic. 

I didn't ask if "karyotic variation" is a term for anything. I understand that there are more than one karyotype. I am asking about use of the term "Karyotype sexes", because the author of the article is claiming that X (Turner's Syndrome) for example, is a unique sex, nether male nor female.

The word “intersex” does not appear at all in the article in your first link. The first two sentences:

“5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes).”

So 5-alpha reductase deficiency affects males, and it further specifies that they are genetically male- that's not intersex. So not only is that not implied in that article, statements contradicting that claim are made.

 

Let me guess, you think I’m a Shapiro supporter? I did not ask about Shapiro. I’m asking question regarding claims made by someone else. Specific claims. 

[StringJunky]

4 minutes ago, xray said:

I think it's more complicated than that. If it were that simple, Turner's Syndrome wouldn't be a syndrome. 

It exclusively affects girls, as far as I understand or, perhaps, they end up as girls because there's no extra x or y. Maybe @Arete might clarify.

[Arete]

1 hour ago, xray said:

I didn't ask if "karyotic variation" is a term for anything.

You asked if karyotypes were sexes. Karyotype is simply a term for the arrangement of chromosomes within a eukaryotic cell. Variation in the karyotype of sex chromosomes results in sexes in sexually reproducing species. So no, Karyotype is not synonymous with sex. 

1 hour ago, xray said:

the author of the article is claiming that X (Turner's Syndrome) for example, is a unique sex, nether male nor female.

The author is assuming that sex is defined by karyotype - which is a little problematic. As alpha reductase syndrome is a good example of, a individual with this condition is karyotypically male, has undescended testes, but has female external genitalia. So does the karyotype, the gametes, or the phenotype define the sex of an individual? Personally I wouldn't define monsomal X and a "sex" per se, implying that Homo sapiens is a multi-sex species, but I would say that an individual with monosomal X (i.e. Turner's syndrome) falls outside the standard definitions of male and female. 

1 hour ago, xray said:

The word “intersex” does not appear at all in the article in your first link.

The article states that the individual will be chromosomally XY, have female external genitalia, and are usually raised as girls. I don't really care if the article uses the specific word "intersex". People with the condition have characteristics of both sexes - and are therefore intersex. Ergo, listed as an intersex condition by the Intersex Society of North America

1 hour ago, xray said:

Let me guess, you think I’m a Shapiro supporter? I did not ask about Shapiro

 Honestly, I don't care if you support him one way or the other - I'm simply stating that biology doesn't - sex isn't binary or universally fixed at birth. 

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

It exclusively affects girls, as far as I understand or, perhaps, they end up as girls because there's no extra x or y. Maybe @Arete might clarify.

Turner's syndrome (monosomal X) results in phenotypically female individuals - there's no Y chromosome to provide male genes. However, having a single copy of all of one's X linked genes is going to significantly alter the expression patterns of all of the genes on that chromosome, resulting in physiological abnormality. Also, the chromosomal imbalance during meiosis will result in reduced fertility. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Arete

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, Arete said:

Turner's syndrome (monosomal X) results in phenotypically female individuals - there's no Y chromosome to provide male genes. However, having a single copy of all of one's X linked genes is going to significantly alter the expression patterns of all of the genes on that chromosome, resulting in physiological abnormality. Also, the chromosomal imbalance during meiosis will result in reduced fertility. 

Cheers for that.

[swansont]

15 hours ago, xray said:

 Where are you drawing that conclusion from that article and what exactly are you claiming? Are you claiming that each karyotype is a unique sex? Because that's what my question is regarding.

No. AFAICT what that link is saying is that each arrangement/permutation of sex chromosomes is a karyotype. But there are karyotypes that have nothing to do with sex. i.e. sex is not the only thing that depends on your chromosomes.