Dangerous politic climate

[Ten oz]

In October Cesar sayoc was arrested for sending explosives to Obama, Joe Biden, Clinton, Kamala Harris and Cory Booker, former Attorney General Eric Holder, actor Robert De Niro,  John Brennan, James Clapper, billionaires George Soros and Tom Steyer, and Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif. Yesterday a Military Officer was arrested who was plotting to kill some of the same people, link below.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has only been in political office 6 weeks and already made the list of a right wing extremist who was plotting to murder people. This isn't standard political polarization. This isn't a typical both sides issue. We are in a very dangerous political environment. Considering the the repeated threats we are fortunate none of the individuals who've now been repeated targeted haven't been hurt. 

Is the a link behind the way conservative media covers AOC, Pelosi, Booker, Waters, and etc and these Domestic Terrorists?  Does Conservative leaning media have a responsibility to change their tone and reporting related to those who are now being repeated for murder by Right Wing Extremist? Does the President? 

Quote

 

A 49-year-old Coast Guard lieutenant is in custody and faces domestic terrorism charges for allegedly planning "to murder innocent civilians on a scale rarely seen in this country," according to court documents filed in U.S. District Court in Maryland on Tuesday.

Federal prosecutors say Christopher Paul Hasson, a self-described white nationalist living in Silver Spring, Md., amassed a stockpile of weapons since at least 2017, while cultivating plans to launch a widespread attack on prominent Democratic lawmakers. including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and several high-profile journalists from MSNBC and CNN.

In addition to Pelosi, Hasson was allegedly considering some type of violent assault on Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, Sens. Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris, Kirsten Gillibrand and Richard Blumenthal, along with U.S. Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Maxine Waters, and former house member, Beto O'Rourke. The spreadsheet list also included MSNBC hosts Chris Hayes and Joe Scarborough, as well as Don Lemon and Van Jones from CNN. Link

 

 

[Raider5678]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Is the a link behind the way conservative media covers AOC, Pelosi, Booker, Waters, and etc and these Domestic Terrorists?  Does Conservative leaning media have a responsibility to change their tone and reporting related to those who are now being repeated for murder by Right Wing Extremist? Does the President? 

No. There is free speech. They're not there calling for death. Just because there are a bunch of idiots who try to blame the media for their actions, doesn't mean it's so. Everyone has individual responsibility for what they do. 

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

This isn't a typical both sides issue.

A Republican party office was burned to the ground.

A Republican senator was beaten half to death in his yard.

A Republican Congressional candidate was attacked by a man with a switchblade.

There have been over 550 recorded physical attacks on Republicans* in the last year.

But it's one side.

*This is only counting ones where the motive was that they were Republicans. A random robbery against a republican doesn't count, for example.

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Does Conservative leaning media have a responsibility to change their tone and reporting related to those who are now being repeated for murder by Right Wing Extremist?

Does liberal-leaning media have the same responsibility?

MSNBC's host declared  Trump worse than Osama Bin Laden. We killed Osama Bin Laden, in case you didn't know.

Or celeberties asking "Where's John Wilkes Booth when you need him?" 

But I'm sure she was just referencing peaceful protest there.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Raider5678

[iNow]

Pointing to “other sides” ignores the actual underlying problem. It’s the wrong conversation to have and is a distraction.

The issue is dehumanization. The issue is failing to see “others” as part of “us.”

The issue is “leaders” picking at these divisive scabs and making it easier for the mentally unstable to feel sanctioned... to decide that acting and taking next steps is more socially acceptable than it is.

The current political climate is toxic. It is dangerous. It needs to improve. 

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

Does liberal-leaning media have the same responsibility?

Rand Paul's neighbor attacked him over domestic issues the two had with each other. It had nothing to do with politics or the media. Your examples are just whataboutism.

People have tried and have be caught conspiracying to kill people at CNN and MSNBC well as Democrat Representatives. It is serious. There is no comparison going the other way. The President has repeated called those who have been targeted "enemy of the people". It has a corrosive effect and needs to stop before one of these lunatics are successful. 

[Ten oz]

3 hours ago, iNow said:

The issue is “leaders” picking at these divisive scabs and making it easier for the mentally unstable to feel sanctioned... to decide that acting and taking next steps is more socially acceptable than it is.

This stuff has been exacerbated by Trump specifically and those who support him. The leaders in question have names. This climate isn't being stoked by all our leaders. This stuff needs to be addressed directly if it is ever to improve. 

AOC has been in office 6 weeks and she is already being targeted. I mention her because her name has already been inserted into numerous arguments on this forum. Some posters get hyperbolic about her. AOC is for free healthcare. So what. It certainly isn't a reason to murder her. It isn't a reason to carry on about and demagogue her endless. The amount of exaggeration and character assassination that goes on even at the lowest levels is disgusting. 

Harris, Booker, Waters, and so on have been repeatedly targeted. This is all very dangerous. Just 50yrs ago we had a wave of political Assassinations: MLK, Medgar Evans, RFK, freedom summer murders, and etc.

We have been through this stuff before with Mccarthyism and then civil rights. It took people calling it out and standing up to it directly. Currently I think we (most people) are passively leaning on platitudes about partisanship hoping it just improves on its own. I don't think it can. This isn't liberal vs conservative, Democrat vs Republicans, or whatever. This is a dangerous ideology rooting itself in society. 

*I am not implying you specifically have stated otherwise or made contrary remarks. 

 

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

Rand Paul's neighbor attacked him over domestic issues the two had with each other. It had nothing to do with politics or the media. Your examples are just whataboutism.

People have tried and have be caught conspiracying to kill people at CNN and MSNBC well as Democrat Representatives. It is serious. There is no comparison going the other way. The President has repeated called those who have been targeted "enemy of the people". It has a corrosive effect and needs to stop before one of these lunatics are successful. 

I know an attack on Republicans doesn't fit your narrative, but does this not count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

Both sides should be a lot more careful in there speech, IMO. First and foremost Trump, but nether side gets excused.

[swansont]

4 hours ago, Raider5678 said:

No. There is free speech. They're not there calling for death. Just because there are a bunch of idiots who try to blame the media for their actions, doesn't mean it's so. Everyone has individual responsibility for what they do. 

People have been calling AOC a witch, and there is a biblical verse about calling for the death of witches. Do you think the people spreading that story are unaware of the connection?

Quote

A Republican party office was burned to the ground.

A Republican senator was beaten half to death in his yard.

A Republican Congressional candidate was attacked by a man with a switchblade.

There have been over 550 recorded physical attacks on Republicans* in the last year.

Can you link these attacks to rhetoric coming from politicians?

Is it possible that democrats denounced some of these attacks, rather than saying, oh, I don't know, something about having good people on both sides?

Quote

 Does liberal-leaning media have the same responsibility?

MSNBC's host declared  Trump worse than Osama Bin Laden. We killed Osama Bin Laden, in case you didn't know.

Who? There is more than one MSNBC "host"

Quote

Or celeberties asking "Where's John Wilkes Booth when you need him?" 

But I'm sure she was just referencing peaceful protest there.

Don't you mean they? You used the plural, meaning more than one.

And that's part of the point. It's the volume, not just the existence. 

 

34 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I know an attack on Republicans doesn't fit your narrative, but does this not count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

Both sides should be a lot more careful in there speech, IMO. First and foremost Trump, but nether side gets excused.

Same question as above: Can you link this attack to rhetoric coming from politicians?

[J.C.MacSwell]

8 minutes ago, swansont said:

Same question as above: Can you link this attack to rhetoric coming from politicians?

No. Very indirectly in the form of heightening political discord to levels that would be dangerous at either extreme. This one just happened to be an attack on Republicans.

[swansont]

9 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

No. Very indirectly in the form of heightening political discord to levels that would be dangerous at either extreme. This one just happened to be an attack on Republicans.

So the attack does not fit the narrative of the discussion, because the narrative excludes those who have not been egged on by the political rhetoric and media generation/amplification. Not because it was an attack on republicans.

IOW, there are always a few nutjobs out there. This isn't a discussion of them.

[MigL]

Does this phenomenon happen in other countries with a polarized political system ?
( although I can't think of any as polarized as the US currently is )

Is it the proclivity of ( some ) Americans to resort to violence to solve their issues ?
Is it the fact that America has a free press which is free to choose political sides and ratchet up the polarization ?

Don't get me wrong, even us 'nice' Canadians have had threats against political leaders, but the US is getting downright ridiculous.

[rangerx]

3 minutes ago, MigL said:

Is it the proclivity of ( some ) Americans to resort to violence to solve their issues ?
Is it the fact that America has a free press which is free to choose political sides and ratchet up the polarization ?

It's the MO of the preppers and survivalists. Sadly, this dude is not the only one with a stash and is willing to use it.
And on the other point, a free press is the cornerstone of any democracy, but when truthful reporting is branded as fake and fake news is upheld as true, democracy goes out the window.

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, rangerx said:

It's the MO of the preppers and survivalists. Sadly, this dude is not the only one with a stash and is willing to use it.
And on the other point, a free press is the cornerstone of any democracy, but when truthful reporting is branded as fake and fake news is upheld as true, democracy goes out the window.

'Fake news' comes under 'freedom of speech' in the First Amendment.  

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I know an attack on Republicans doesn't fit your narrative, but does this not count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

Gabby Gifford's (Democrat) was also shot but I didn't mention her because that wasn't associated with the serial  cycle of attacks I am referring to. Steve Scalise wasn't being regularly targeted by Democrats and left leaning media. After the attacks everyone immediately rejected the violence hands down without caveats or delay.  You cannot pull up a single post I ever made pre or post the shooting where I ever said a single bad word about Steve Scalise. I doubt you can find a single negative post anyone on this forum ever made about Steve Scalise. 

You and I were literally exchanging posts about Booker and Holder when the bombing story broke. You were misrepresenting them (Booker and Holder) as promoting violence at the same time Cesar Sayoc was trying to murder them. Fast forward a few months and AOC has gotten a lot of attention from you of late and now we see her name on a kill list.These individuals are being targeted by right wing extremist via media and by their advocates in office. I am not blame you for what happened. Rather I am trying to encourage you to open your eyes and see that some of the media diet your ingesting and the views being promoting are toxic. Booker, AOC, and etc are people who hold politic beliefs you possibly disagree with. They are not malevolent figures in anyway. They do not promote violence, hatered, racism, or etc. 

The bomber in FL could have been classified as a one off but now here we are with another person who was looking to murder many of the same people. By name both went after Maxine Waters, Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, and etc. 

 

[rangerx]

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

'Fake news' comes under 'freedom of speech' in the First Amendment.  

Freedom of speech is not unique to America.

IT works in most countries because as a society, it's framed around decency and respect for other opinions.

In America it's been perverted and weaponized to serve self interest, not the community at large.

[StringJunky]

6 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Freedom of speech is not unique to America.

IT works in most countries because as a society, it's framed around decency and respect for other opinions.

In America it's been perverted and weaponized to serve self interest, not the community at large.

I was being absurdly humorous in implying that fake news is protected as freedom of speech under the amendment.

[J.C.MacSwell]

10 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Gabby Gifford's (Democrat) was also shot but I didn't mention her because that wasn't associated with the serial  cycle of attacks I am referring to. Steve Scalise wasn't being regularly targeted by Democrats and left leaning media. After the attacks everyone immediately rejected the violence hands down without caveats or delay.  You cannot pull up a single post I ever made pre or post the shooting where I ever said a single bad word about Steve Scalise. I doubt you can find a single negative post anyone on this forum ever made about Steve Scalise. 

You and I were literally exchanging posts about Booker and Holder when the bombing story broke. You were misrepresenting them (Booker and Holder) as promoting violence at the same time Cesar Sayoc was trying to murder them. Fast forward a few months and AOC has gotten a lot of attention from you of late and now we see her name on a kill list.These individuals are being targeted by right wing extremist via media and by their advocates in office. I am not blame you for what happened. Rather I am trying to encourage you to open your eyes and see that some of the media diet your ingesting and the views being promoting are toxic. Booker, AOC, and etc are people who hold politic beliefs you possibly disagree with. They are not malevolent figures in anyway. They do not promote violence, hatered, racism, or etc. 

The bomber in FL could have been classified as a one off but now here we are with another person who was looking to murder many of the same people. By name both went after Maxine Waters, Cory Booker, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, and etc. 

 

Booker and Holder called for the harassment of Republican Senators. Justify it as you like, but don't claim I misrepresented it.

Sayoc sent pipe bombs in the mail. No where did I claim Booker or Holder were advocates of that level of violence.

As usual, it is not all or none. More Americans need to recognize that in their speech.

50 minutes ago, swansont said:

So the attack does not fit the narrative of the discussion, because the narrative excludes those who have not been egged on by the political rhetoric and media generation/amplification. Not because it was an attack on republicans.

IOW, there are always a few nutjobs out there. This isn't a discussion of them.

Based on that as I read it I wouldn't say it should be excluded. I see that as quite different from can I "link this attack to rhetoric coming from politicians", that I replied no to.

The nut jobs are the danger. No reasonable person is going to run out and kill someone based on current political rhetoric.

Does Cesar Sayoc not fit your definition of a "nut job"?

[Ten oz]

16 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Booker and Holder called for the harassment of Republican Senators. Justify it as you like, but don't claim I misrepresented it.

They both also clearly stated during those same speeches to not break the law or do anything violent. We have been over this. 

16 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Sayoc sent pipe bombs in the mail. No where did I claim Booker or Holder were advocates of that level of violence.

As usual, it is not all or none. More Americans need to recognize that in their speech.

My point was that the same Politicians you have attacked on this site are also having their lives threatened. Not empty threats either. These are serious threats. Some humble self reflection might be in order. 

[rangerx]

4 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I was being absurdly humorous in implying that fake news is protected as freedom of speech under the amendment.

I gathered that, but it certainly gets to the heart of the matter.

Decency and decorum isn't lost on the average American, but the sheer volume of rhetoric and propaganda undermining those things is epidemic.

Although not a resource thing,  it's a tragedy of the commons nonetheless.
 

[Ten oz]

28 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I was being absurdly humorous in implying that fake news is protected as freedom of speech under the amendment.

I am not against free press or against free speech. If every news program I disliked was pulled off the air tomorrow their audience would still be able to reach similar content online. 

I think the problem is that too many of us (average people) are apathetic to the rhetoric. We are allowing those who preach hate and speak lies to have louder voices. Polarized as the nation is I believe 70% of the population basically agrees on 95% of stuff. White Supremacists like the one arrested yesterday are members of a tiny minority. Such groups only have power when the majority fail to oppose them adequately. 

[rangerx]

Especially when a so-called president calls the media "an enemy of the people", it's no surprise that partisan malcontents will take up arms.

[StringJunky]

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Such groups only have power when the majority fail to oppose them adequately. 

It's the most vocal that get things done. There would be reasonable gun legislation if the majority - that actually exists - were louder than the NRA et al.

[Ten oz]

2 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Decency and decorum isn't lost on the average American, but the sheer volume of rhetoric and propaganda undermining those things is epidemic.

This! Decent people need to start standing up. 

By stand up I just mean point out to others when their language and rhetoric is crossing the line. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

They both also clearly stated during those same speeches to not break the law or do anything violent. We have been over this. 

 

Holder did. (it didn't absolve him of inciteful rhetoric, but at least he qualified it later in his speech) I'm pretty sure Booker didn't. Please correct me if I am wrong.

4 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

My point was that the same Politicians you have attacked on this site are also having their lives threatened. Not empty threats either. These are serious threats. Some humble self reflection might be in order. 

Let me get this straight. You think I should not bring up any negative facts or opinions I have on Booker, because he was the recipient of a mail bomb?

Can I not condemn the mail bomb and, quite separately (as I make no connection), express my views?

Booker is currently trying to become the next POTUS. His receiving any threat of violence is abominable. That might get him deserved sympathy, but it does not give him a pass.

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Especially when a so-called president calls the media "an enemy of the people", it's no surprise that partisan malcontents will take up arms.

I think most people agree Trump's attacks on the media are wrong. The problem is not enough people are willing to acknowledge it unequivocally. 

[rangerx]

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Let me get this straight. You think I should not bring up any negative facts or opinions I have on Booker, because he was the recipient of a mail bomb?

No, that's not what was said at all. In fact nobody suggested it.

It's the false equivalency to detract from the underlying issue and the bogus assertion you're being censored that's objectionable.