J.C.MacSwell Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, rangerx said: Because you have underlain your comments with it. I refuted it. Make cringe worthy comments, you'll draw comments. But no, instead you'd rather censor me, even blame me for what you say. Fail. Bait and switch BS Everyone else here knows what a straw man is. Don't pat yourself on the back for refuting your own suggestion. You might start hurting yourself in your exuberance 18 minutes ago, iNow said: Yes. He one time said we should speak out with passion against letting a guy with multiple credible rape claims from having a lifetime appointment on the Supreme Court. That's different from what’s being discussed here in this thread. Time to move off this point. Here are some of Trumps calls for violence. It’s 4 months old so the list today has only grown. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/back-trump-comments-perceived-encouraging-violence/story?id=48415766 I haven’t shared them all. There were too many. Regardless, it’s beyond time to move off the Booker narrative, and I couldn’t care less who started it. You’re not in kindergarten. Political Forum on American politics circa 2019... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Just now, J.C.MacSwell said: Everyone else here knows what a straw man is. Don't pat yourself on the back for refuting your own suggestion. You might start hurting yourself in your exuberance Oh bullshit. In pretty much every thread you'll default to an underhanded tactic to toss out the "leftist tactic" or other nonsense to dismiss other's comments when YOU were the one that brought them up in the first place. The irony in your assertion is off the scale. We are two pages into this and you've effectively derailed this into yet another one of your off topic claims and projections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 20 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: Political Forum on American politics circa 2019... Allow me to rephrase. Multiple credible harassment / potential assault claims. Fair? Dont answer. It’s beyond time to move off the Booker narrative in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, rangerx said: Oh bullshit. In pretty much every thread you'll default to an underhanded tactic to toss out the "leftist tactic" or other nonsense to dismiss other's comments when YOU were the one that brought them up in the first place. The irony in your assertion is off the scale. We are two pages into this and you've effectively derailed this into yet another one of your off topic claims and projections. No. Ten oz brought it up. He felt the need to claim I had misrepresented it. I hadn't. 7 minutes ago, iNow said: Allow me to rephrase. Multiple credible harassment / potential assault claims. Fair? Dont answer. It’s beyond time to move off the Booker narrative in this thread. No. -3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, iNow said: Allow me to rephrase. Multiple credible harassment / potential assault claims. Fair? Dont answer. It’s beyond time to move off the Booker narrative in this thread. I suppose it's germane to the discussion in one sense though, that any excuse will be made to distract from the underlying issue. It's the age old tactic of making an molehill of a mountain by making an a mountain of a molehill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, rangerx said: I suppose it's germane to the discussion in one sense though, that any excuse will be made to distract from the underlying issue. It's the age old tactic of making an molehill of a mountain by making an a mountain of a molehill. Do you have anything to add to this discussion besides repeatedly attacking J.C. MacSwell and flipping out on him for everything he says? 26 minutes ago, rangerx said: We are two pages into this and you've I have effectively derailed this into yet another one of your my off topic claims and projections attacks against you. FTFY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: No. Ten oz brought it up. He felt the need to claim I had misrepresented it. I hadn't. No. I was talking about the baseball shooting. Other than painting liberals with a wide brush, you've yet to substantiate it to the OP who and what incited that incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, rangerx said: Truth what? Your truth that any protest by liberals is an unruly mob? This is the same exact type of bull shit false equivalence you have a habit of accusing anyone who disagrees with you of. That isn't what he said, and your repeated pathetic attempts to lie about what he says is disgusting. We can have a perfectly normal discussion without you constantly accusing him of trying to censor you, creating false equivalences, making up false narratives, derailing the thread, making a mountain out of a molehill, and making bogus assertions. To quote you: On 1/24/2019 at 6:36 PM, rangerx said: Grow TF up. Edited February 22, 2019 by Raider5678 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Speaking of the thread topic... Does anyone think the current political climate is healthy? Does anyone seriously think what we’re all experiencing today is the best way to proceed? Does anyone think Trump isn’t intentionally making it worse for personal gain? Does anyone think more people won’t be needlessly hurt if we continue this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, iNow said: Speaking of the thread topic... Does anyone think the current political climate is healthy? Does anyone seriously think what we’re all experiencing today is the best way to proceed? Does anyone think Trump isn’t intentionally making it worse for personal gain? No, it's not healthy. No, because most conservatives fail to acknowledge it's even an issue and those who do fail to address it by needlessly shifting blame. It' speaks volumes when some people think a person like me, an anonymous foreign contributor on a public forum group be held to a higher standard than a wannabe dictator who incites terror, violence, racism and division among his own people. Willfully ignorant and spitefully sacrificial is what that is. There used to be a time when conservatives would say "better dead than red", but now they jumped into bed with the Russians, because it means owning the libs and little else. It would be laughable, if it wasn't so pathetic and tragic. I'm sure Reagan rolled over in his grave. It's all about personal gain, but little does he realize that after his tenure is done, he'll either be dead, in jail or broke. Like the university, steaks, vodka and casinos, the Trump brand is near dead. It's been that way a while, barely on life support by quid pro quo Russian financing. Anyone who thinks Russia gives something for nothing is an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypervalent_iodine Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 ! Moderator Note rangerx and Raider, We have been here before. Rangerx, I personally am tired of having to intervene in political conversations that you are a part of. Please learn the value of civil discussion and reconsider the way by which you talk to members whose beliefs who may not agree with. You constantly generate hostility in these threads, throw insults, and drag things off topic with hyperbole. It will not be tolerated. Raider, as you well know, responding in kind does you no favours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 13 hours ago, Raider5678 said: Oh, so if Democrats denounce the violence, then they're all good. Um, no. Why would you think that? But it distinguishes them from the Republicans. I expect some action to be taken, too. At least the Democrats try to do something about it, instead of "thoughts and prayers, and please keep those NRA donations a-coming" Quote ALright. Republicans have denounced almost every single attack, including the one where pipe bombs were sent. No, not so much. Trump (the leader of the GOP) tweeting out some message and then backtracking almost immediately is not really a denouncement. Quote People have been calling Trump "Hitler" and "Worse than Osama Bin Laden." Do you think people spreading those stories are unaware of the connection? What connection is there, that is analogous to Exodus 22:18? Did ordinary citizens rise up and kill Hitler, or bin Laden? Quote If people calling AOC are actually trying to call for her to be killed, then so are the people calling Trump Hitler and Osama Bin Laden. Therefore, the whole lot of them should be thrown in jail. See above. By your logic, you could add Lincoln to the list. Do you really think that comparing someone to Lincoln is a call for them to be killed? Quote However, that doesn't fit your narrative. It's only one-sided where Republicans are advocating violence against Democrats. I will await your explanation of how comparing someone to Lincoln (or Hitler or bin Laden) is advocating violence, simply because they did not die of natural causes. Quote Pointing to "other sides" in direct response to a statement "It's only their side, not ours" is pointing out the hypocrisy that is there. Nobody is doing that, so this is moot, and a straw man, and an example of not arguing in good faith. Quote The key to solving the underlying problem of those inciting violence is to acknowledge the problem exists, instead of denying it where it's not in your favor. Again, that's not the argument. Are you having understanding what people have written? You should ask for clarification. Quote Ah. One example was incorrect. Clearly, all 550 of them were just whataboutism. Since you have failed to provide sufficient information about these 550 alleged incidents, at this point, we don't know how much is incorrect. But things are not true until they are debunked. It's the opposite. Vague claims like this are assumed false until corroborated. The number could have been exaggerated or fabricated. We don't know the source. 13 hours ago, Raider5678 said: President calls the media an enemy of the people. It's inciting violence. Media makes jokes like "Where's John Wilke's Booth when you need him?" It's freedom of speech. One is the president of the united states. The other is an actor. Stop pretending that this is the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) The number of hate groups in the U.S. are up a third over the last 4yrs. The majority of hate groups are driven by White Supremacy. Hate crimes rose 17% in 2017 alone. There were just over 8,800 victims of hate crimes in 2017 alone, Link. These aren't frivolous crimes either. In 2017 among just Transgender alone there were 29 people murdered in 2017, Link. These numbers may actually be worse as there isn't a formal department in charge of tracking hate groups or hate related violence. Local Law Enforcement Departments are not required to track or report hate crimes. We have seen multiple individuals target elected officials and news organizations for Domestic Terrorist attacks. We have a very real and growing problem on our hands. Real lives are at risk. It is not an exaggeration to say people are actively trying to kill CNN employees. Numerous arrest has been made. It is not an exaggeration to say people are trying to assassinated Democratic Presidential candidates. Bombs have already been sent in the mail and stock piles of weapons with kill lists have already been found. There are leftist groups associated with violence like Antifa. However everyone without hesitation unequivocally rejects their criminal behavior and they haven't murdered anyone or been caught plotting to murder people. There is not a equivalent tit for tat going on with regards to the threat of Domestic Terror we are seeing. The threat is coming from right wing extremists and far as I can tell right wing media and conservative politicians are encouraging them. From Trump's tweet straight onto a white supremacist's kill list we are see radical domestic terrorist pull names straight from media headlines and target them for political assassination. It is real and it is terrifying. Edited February 22, 2019 by Ten oz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 12 hours ago, rangerx said: I was talking about the baseball shooting. Other than painting liberals with a wide brush, you've yet to substantiate it to the OP who and what incited that incident. I replied to that. Obviously the blame goes to the perpetrator. Although he was a Bernie Sanders supporter, I don't blame Sanders. I do somewhat blame the dangerous political climate as per topic, and for that I blame everyone on both sides, from Trump on down, but no one in particular. (Trump would be an exception due to his position and personality. He's clearly more a symptom than a leader, but he is both) I certainly did not, and do not, blame liberals more than any other group. If anything I blame the left and right extremes, but there is a lot of blame to share around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: Obviously the blame goes to the perpetrator. Although he was a Bernie Sanders supporter, I don't blame Sanders. If Bernie Sanders had been tweeting about Steve Scalise, going around giving interviews insulting Scalise, and so on I than an argument could be made Bernie Sanders shared some blame. Likewise for left leaning media. However that isn't what happened. There doesn't appear to be any indication the shooter was incited by Bernie Sanders or left leaning media. Steve Scalise was not a politician who was commonly referenced in the media or by national Democrats in general. As Referenced early Democratic Congresswomen Gabby Gifford was similarly shot yet that attack doesn't appear to have been incited by specific media outlets or politicians. Even when polarization was far less than it is today, when politicians practiced better decorum, and media was less overtly biased bad things happened. Crime is never zero. Craziness is never zero. There are always examples one can dig up of something bad happening. One bad thing isn't a trend. 55 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: I do somewhat blame the dangerous political climate as per topic, and for that I blame everyone on both sides, from Trump on down, but no one in particular. (Trump would be an exception due to his position and personality. He's clearly more a symptom than a leader, but he is both) Both sides haven't had bombs sent to them in the mail. Trump has specifically singled out individual people like Maxine Waters and Elizabeth Warren who have since been targets in assassination attempts. You cannot provide a single example of that going the other way. No national figure in the Democratic party has singled out Republicans who were then targeted by left wing extremists for assassination. That has not happened. 55 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: I certainly did not, and do not, blame liberals more than any other group. If anything I blame the left and right extremes, but there is a lot of blame to share around. Law Enforcement officials have broken up plots by right wing extremist to assassinate Democrats and CNN employees. White Supremacist hate groups in the U.S. are at an all time high and rising, hate crimes are on the rise, but you blame left and right extremes equally? In addition to the national Domestic terrorism events the last few years have seen Right wing extremists attack Jewish people at synagogue, Black people at church, Hindu's at temple, etc, etc, etc. There are not comparable examples of this level of violence coming from left wing extremists. No examples you can so directly link directly to media headlines and toxic tweets by irresponsible pundits and politicians. Edited February 22, 2019 by Ten oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Ten oz said: White Supremacist hate groups in the U.S. are at an all time high and rising, hate crimes are on the rise, but you blame left and right extremes equally? Obviously the extreme right is primarily to blame for the rise in right wing hate groups, and right wing hate crimes. As this includes the majority of hate crimes, they would be more to blame. I do blame both extremes fairly equally for the current political climate, but I don't blame just the extremes. Ultimately, as history has shown, both extremes can be equally dangerous. Edited February 22, 2019 by J.C.MacSwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: Ultimately, as history has shown, both extremes can be equally dangerous. Has it, though? If one extreme is responsible for 5 acts of violence, and another extreme is responsible for 5,000 acts of violence, is it really accurate to describe them as equally dangerous? We can agree all violence and extremism is problematic. No worries there, but seems disingenuous to suggest an equivalence which (to me at least) rings false. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 20 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: Obviously the extreme right is primarily to blame for the rise in right wing hate groups, and right wing hate crimes. As this includes the majority of hate crimes, they would be more to blame. I do blame both extremes fairly equally for the current political climate, but I don't blame just the extremes. Ultimately, as history has shown, both extremes can be equally dangerous. I am not sure what history you are referring to but it doesn't really matter. The current dangerous climate we are seeing in politics isn't coming from both sides. Hate groups and White Supremacist (KKK, Nazis, Nationalist militias, etc) don't support left wing politics. They support right wing politics. White supremacists aren't watching Rachael Maddow and Don Lemon. White Supremacists are following right wing politicians and pundits. It is those individuals who need to do a better job toning down the rhetoric. It seems clear to me Cesar Sayoc and Christopher Paul Hasson targets were inspired by right wing media and Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, iNow said: Has it, though? If one extreme is responsible for 5 acts of violence, and another extreme is responsible for 5,000 acts of violence, is it really accurate to describe them as equally dangerous? We can agree all violence and extremism is problematic. No worries there, but seems disingenuous to suggest an equivalence which (to me at least) rings false. It has. The numbers are in the high 10's of millions OF deaths in the 20th century alone, with the left being responsible for the majority. Edited February 22, 2019 by J.C.MacSwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: It has. The numbers are in the high 10's of millions in the 20th century alone, with the left being responsible for the majority. you almost had me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: It has. The numbers are in the high 10's of millions OF deaths in the 20th century alone, with the left being responsible for the majority. This seems like it is laying the foundation for an epic goal post moving off topic line of discussion. So let just agree not to go there. This thread is about U.S. politics. Can we both agree that in the U.S. the left vs right paradigm as it currently exists has only been around for about 40yrs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ten oz said: This thread is about U.S. politics. Can we both agree that in the U.S. the left vs right paradigm as it currently exists has only been around for about 40yrs? has it ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten oz Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, dimreepr said: has it ever? For the sake of a U.S. Politic discussion left and right general refer to Democrats and Republicans, those who support, and their fringes. That is certainly how I think it is being used in this thread. The current state of our two parties with regards to positions held and audience who favors them has been in existence since the mid to late 70's. I don't see the benefit to this thread in debating the definitions of left and right as it has applied globally over the last hundred years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 57 minutes ago, Ten oz said: This seems like it is laying the foundation for an epic goal post moving off topic line of discussion. So let just agree not to go there. If you would like to assume that in the US the right and left extremes or political climate can't get worse, good luck with your discussion. 1 hour ago, Ten oz said: Can we both agree that in the U.S. the left vs right paradigm as it currently exists has only been around for about 40yrs? Not really. Was there a significant change around 40 years ago? Or is it constantly changing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 29 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said: Was there a significant change around 40 years ago? Or is it constantly changing? Both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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