Dangerous politic climate

[rangerx]

1 minute ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

I don't think you will get everyone to agree on exactly what this should mean, never mind agree or make the personal decision to uphold it.

Isn't personal responsibility something conservatives preached ad nauseam for eons?

Besides that, the ball isn't in one's court to have other's re-educated, it's only incumbent upon one's self to do better, as opposed to exacerbating it.
 

[J.C.MacSwell]

3 minutes ago, rangerx said:

Isn't personal responsibility something conservatives preached ad nauseam for eons?

Besides that, the ball isn't in one's court to have other's re-educated, it's only incumbent upon one's self to do better, as opposed to exacerbating it.
 

Well one is a start, but I don't think it will get far on it's own.

[Ten oz]

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

So what would you suggest be done to avoid it?

The change required is cultural. People being able to accurately identify and reject hateful speech which encourages violence is the first step. That will need to be accomplished on an individual level. 

A friend of mine has epic debates with people on twitter. He followers people like Ann Coulter and Trump so not to miss any of their tweets so that he can use their words against them in his twitter arguments. I have tried to example to him that by following and sharing their tweets he is only encouraging them and help spread their propaganda. He insists that it doesn't make a difference. That he is just one person. "It is like spitting in the Ocean" he says. However I see more akin to tossing a plastic bottle in the Ocean. The accumulative effect of individual after individual doing the wrong thing has a disastrous effect. Are you spitting in the oceans? Do you help the rating,view totals, and etc of groups and personalities you are aware promote divisive rhetoric or that placate hate organizations? 

On the legislative side there are some obvious things which will happen in a bipartisan manner soon as Trump is gone. I think it is a slam dunk that both Democrats and Republicans with agree to legislation limiting the sort of insults and threats elected officials can make against private citizens and licensed broadcasters. I think the majority of both parties don't want to live in a future where the President threatens private citizens on twitter. Sadly Republicans won't act until the Trump era ends. Such legislation will help restore some political decorum but it's just a bandaid. 

[rangerx]

5 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Well one is a start, but I don't think it will get far on it's own.

That reads like others have no interest in personal responsibility, concession or solutions. Feudalism or tribalism can't be shamed into changing. It requires introspect and acceptance.

When intolerance is ingrained deeper than resolution, society as a whole is the loser. Given the current level of intransigence, it can never get better, it can only get worse. Other than capitulation to dictatorship, civil war is the inevitable result. One extreme or the other. That's the path America is on.

[MigL]

You gotta love this...
Two Canadians and one American discussing what to do about the dangerous political climate in the US.
Are no other Americans besides Ten oz concerned about the level that political violence has been ratcheted to under D Trump's watch ?
Why do some Americans think it's OK to threaten their fellow citizen's lives if they don't get their way ?
Have American politics moved so far past discussion, that violence is the only choice left ?

And is there a possibility of going back to saner times once D Trump is out ?

[J.C.MacSwell]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

I think it is a slam dunk that both Democrats and Republicans with agree to legislation limiting the sort of insults and threats elected officials can make against private citizens and licensed broadcasters. I think the majority of both parties don't want to live in a future where the President threatens private citizens on twitter. Sadly Republicans won't act until the Trump era ends. Such legislation will help restore some political decorum but it's just a bandaid. 

Can you give an example of a change? I am surprised sometimes what is allowed (or seems to be) and what is not, but I would be very cautious when adding any limits.

4 minutes ago, MigL said:

You gotta love this...
Two Canadians and one American discussing what to do about the dangerous political climate in the US.
Are no other Americans besides Ten oz concerned about the level that political violence has been ratcheted to under D Trump's watch ?
Why do some Americans think it's OK to threaten their fellow citizen's lives if they don't get their way ?
Have American politics moved so far past discussion, that violence is the only choice left ?

And is there a possibility of going back to saner times once D Trump is out ?

Now three...

 

[Ten oz]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

You gotta love this...
Two Canadians and one American discussing what to do about the dangerous political climate in the US.
Are no other Americans besides Ten oz concerned about the level that political violence has been ratcheted to under D Trump's watch ?
Why do some Americans think it's OK to threaten their fellow citizen's lives if they don't get their way ?
Have American politics moved so far past discussion, that violence is the only choice left ?

And is there a possibility of going back to saner times once D Trump is out ?

Different groups of people resort to violence for different reasons. In my opinion Trump finds violence and the threat of violence are useful tool for intimidating his advisories. It don't think Trump cares about the potential long term impact of it might be. Trump might be stirring the pot currently but the pot and its contents have been here the whole time. 

2 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Can you give an example of a change? I am surprised sometimes what is allowed (or seems to be) and what is not, but I would be very cautious when adding any limits.

I think the whole country is surprised by what people are getting away with. Part of the disbelief is rooted in a naive view of the law. I think many have vaguely assumed Constitutional Law were like the Laws of Physics. That they couldn't be broke or that if someone tried to break them there'd be some type of automatic consequence. That isn't how the law works though. Laws don't enforce themselves. They aren't autonomous. People must act to enforce laws.

Examples of preventing elected officials from threatening private citizens or licensed broadcasters can vary.   Congress could pass a law prohibiting elected officials from singling out individuals or organizations by name. Rather than trashing JP Morgan by name a politician would have to refer to Banks for example. If a federal law like that could be passed than individuals and organizations would have strong grounds to take Politicians to federal court and keep the enforcement honest. 

It is only a bandaid though. Savvy Politicians would find ways around it. Such a law would do nothing about the trash Alex Jones says. I don't think anything can be done about Alex Jones. He has the freedom to say what he wants. 

[rangerx]

2 hours ago, MigL said:

You gotta love this...
Two Canadians and one American discussing what to do about the dangerous political climate in the US

As Canadians, despite our personal politics we're pretty much on the same page when it comes to gun laws, abortion, health care and climate change.

In America, the rhetoric around those wedge issues are exploited as socialism, anti-intellectualism or racism.

Churchill said it best. "We can always count on America to do the right thing after exhausting all other possibilities."
 

[Ten oz]

In part as an apparent extension of the political climate in the U.S. a White supremacist murdered 49 people in New Zealand. 

Quote

 

The accused New Zealand mosque shooter hailed President Trump as a "symbol of renewed white identity" and blasted former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush as "boring" in a lengthy manifestoreportedly written before the murder of at least 49 people Friday.

In a 74-page document called "The Great Replacement," the 28-year-old Australian laid out plans to ambush worshipers at a pair of Christchurch-area mosques, and expressed hope the attack would spark a second civil war in the United States.

"Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?" he asked himself. "As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no." Link

 

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Ten oz

[Airbrush]

If you watch the video he looks like the average crazed dictator, or mob boss, boasting to their crowd.

"I have the most loyal voters....where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and I wouldn't lose any voters....OK?!  It's like incredible."

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=trump+said+he+could+shoot+someone+on+fifth+avenue&qpvt=trump+said+he+could+shoot+someone+on+fifth+avenue&view=detail&mid=0DDCAFAFE6A3320A40600DDCAFAFE6A3320A4060&&FORM=VRDGAR

He would not lose votes from his base.  His supporters will just brush it aside with disbelief or rationalize it.  "That is just Trump being Trump.  He's funny... He's just exaggerating.....big deal....we want a street fighter....someone who acts tough."

More recently he insinuated that if the Dems go too far investigating him, it would be bad because the police, military, and bikers will fight for him.  Insinuating civil war.

"I can tell you I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump – I have the tough people, but they don't play it tough [YET] — until they [Democrats] go to a certain point [investigate too much], and then it would be very bad, very bad."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6811279/Trump-issues-ominous-warning-support-police-military-bikers.html

His response to the NZ shooter when asked if he thinks there is a rise in white nationalism worldwide:

"I don't really.  I think it's a small group of people that have very, very serious problems, I guess," the president replied. "If you look what happened in New Zealand, perhaps that's the case. I don't know enough about it yet … But it's certainly a terrible thing."

What he means is it is ONLY a small group of people with serious problems.  No big deal.  It's JUST that their "problem" is Muslims, as well as other groups of people that are not white nationalists.  They are not "animals" as he calls the despicable immigrant invaders, they are JUST a few people with PROBLEMS, no big deal.   They are not terrorists.  It is a "terrible THING" that white nationalists are forced to take action against the invaders, who are bringing drugs and crime over the border fence, so he needs a taller wall to stop them.  Therefore the national emergency declaration.  

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Airbrush

[Ten oz]

8 minutes ago, Airbrush said:

He would not lose votes from his base.  His supporters will just brush it aside with disbelief or rationalize it.  "That is just Trump being Trump.  He's funny... He's just exaggerating.....big deal....we want a street fighter....someone who acts tough."

The consequences are stacking up. Obama and Clinton were each President for 8yrs and no one went on murder sprees citing them as inspiration. Trump has been President for 2yrs and there have been numerous violent acts here in the U.S. and aboard where murderers have either directly citing Trump as their inspiration or are know to have been radicalized by the group in hate speech since Trump's election. A couple lone lunatics doesn't make a trend but we are beyond that now. Just in the lat 5 months we have seen the 5 below examples:

Robert Bowers known as a staunch Conservative and White Nationalist on social media murdered 11 people attending synagogue in PA Oct. 18'. Gregory Bush who friends and associates described as having become increasingly vitriolic during the 2016 presidential campaign tried to enter the First Baptist Church of Jeffersontown during a service and murder people but was unable to because the doors were locked and then walked to a near by grocery store and murdered 2 shoppers. Cesar Sayoc who drove around in a pro Trump van and frequently posted pro Trump propaganda on social media mailed bombs to Obama, Clinton, Soros, CNN, and etc, etc, etc Oct. 18. Christopher Hasson was a self proclaimed White Nationalist who was arrested for plotting to murder at least 20 elected officials (all Democrats) Feb. 19'. This week in Christchurch New Zealand Brenton Tarrant a self proclaimed White Nationalist citing Trump as lived stream himself on Facebook murdering Muslims. 

 

[rangerx]

35 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Obama and Clinton were each President for 8yrs and no one went on murder sprees citing them as inspiration.

I recall Republicans losing their minds because Obama went a church service to listen to Jeremiah Wright and how he was "palling around with terrorists" for associating with Bill Ayres, even though he was a child at the time and once attended a charity fundraiser later in life.

In Trump's statement to New Zealand, he mentioned people dying, but never mentioned by who and why. A white nationalist terrorist who espoused the Trump doctrine.

The denial and hypocrisy is off the charts.

[iNow]

18 minutes ago, rangerx said:

The denial and hypocrisy is off the charts.

And then within 1 hour called South Americans heading northward towards the US as “invaders,” the EXACT label used to describe Muslims by the Christchurch shooter 

[Ten oz]

4 minutes ago, iNow said:

And then within 1 hour called South Americans heading northward towards the US as “invaders,” the EXACT label used to describe Muslims by the Christchurch shooter 

It is worse than that. Trump initially posted a link to a Beitbart interview as the news of the White Nationalist Terrorist attack broke. In the interview Trump cites his supporters among known armed organizations like Police, Military, and Biker gangs as tougher than liberals. The Tweet was deleted. I am sure many of Trump's apologists will claim his mention of armed organizations and toughness had nothing to do with violence and attempt to clarify what he meant as relating to something else but this sort of thing keeps happening.  

Quote

 

President Trump deleted a tweet Friday linking to the conservative Breitbart News featuring an interview in which he suggested his supporters could "play it tough" if need be. The deletion came after the terror attack that left 49 victims dead at mosques in New Zealand. 

The tweet was deleted mid-morning, according to analysis using the Internet archiving system Wayback Machine. Mr. Trump hadn't linked directly to the interview with him, but to Breitbart's homepage, which had prominently featured the interview at the time. The interview took place and was posted before the attack. 

The president rarely deletes tweets except to fix grammatical or punctuation errors.  

Mr. Trump had told Breitbart his supporters, including the military and police, don't play as tough as their political opponents, but can be tougher if they need to be. The president's comments came in response to a Breitbart question about his announced executive order intended to guarantee free speech on college campuses. 

"So here's the thing—it's so terrible what's happening," Mr. Trump told the publication. "You know, the left plays a tougher game, it's very funny. I actually think that the people on the right are tougher, but they don't play it tougher. Okay? I can tell you I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump – I have the tough people, but they don't play it tough — until they go to a certain point, and then it would be very bad, very bad. But the left plays it cuter and tougher. Like with all the nonsense that they do in Congress … with all this invest[igations]—that's all they want to do is –you know, they do things that are nasty. Republicans never played this." Link

 

 

[beecee]

On 3/17/2019 at 12:42 AM, Ten oz said:

In part as an apparent extension of the political climate in the U.S. a White supremacist murdered 49 people in New Zealand. 

If any good at all will come out of this evil extreme white supremacist nut, it is that NZ are now certain to bring their gun laws in line with Australia's tough gun laws, and Australia are very likely to toughen them even further. Other nations should take note.

[Airbrush]

"When Bill O'Reilly told Trump that Putin was 'a killer' because of the number of journalists and dissidents murdered in Russia, Trump replied, 

"There are a lot of killers....We have a lot of killers."

'Well, you think our country is so innocent?"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4192606/Trump-respects-Putin-says-lot-killers.html

Because of his extreme level of narcissism, Trump lacks any empathy.  He is a privileged, spoiled boy, who rages uncontrollably about his enemies and holds a grudge.  He MAY have utilized his friendship with Putin to have a Russian hitman remove someone for him.  "We have a lot of killers."  That can just as well mean "Putin and I (we) have access to a lot of killers."

When Trump and Putin emerged from their secret meeting in Helsinki, Putin worked hard at controlling the grin on his face, with delight.  Putin was nearly humming "Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah, Zip-A-Dee- A."  Trump had a grim look, like he just got a scolding from his boss.  Then Trump forced a fake-looking smile.  Then he said Putin was "strong and powerful" (which mean the same thing) in his denial of interfering in the US election.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Airbrush

[Ten oz]

Quote

 

ELMIRA, N.Y. – A New York man is in custody after federal authorities say he threatened to kill freshman Congresswoman Rep. Ilhan Omar.

Patrick W. Carlineo, 55, of Addison, was arrested Friday morning and charged by criminal complaint with threatening to assault and murder Omar, a Democrat representing Minnesota. 

On March 21, a staff member in Omar's office received a phone call around 12:20 p.m., the criminal complaint states. During the call, an individual, eventually identified as Carlineo, allegedly said to the staff member, "Do you work for the Muslim Brotherhood? Why are you working for her, she's an (expletive) terrorist. I’ll put a bullet in her (expletive) skull."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/05/ilhan-omar-death-threat-leads-to-arrest-of-new-york-man/3379387002/

 

A California man accused of slashing someone with a sword after his "Make America Great Again" hat was swatted off his head was charged with attempted murder, mayhem and assault with a deadly weapon on Friday.

Leor Bergland, 30, appeared in San Francisco Superior Court following his Wednesday arrest, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.

Bergland was arrested in connection with the slashing outside a roller-skating rink last week that reportedly occurred after the victim, 27-year-old Gabriel Gaucin, knocked the red "MAGA" hat popularized by President Trump's campaign off Bergland’s head.

According to prosecutors, after Gaucin knocked the hat to the ground, Bergland allegedly "reached back, as if to punch the victim, but instead quickly brought his hand down, holding what the victim thought was an umbrella or nightstick."

Prosecutors described it as "one of the most gruesome photos of an assault I’ve ever seen," the newspaper reported.

Gaucin suffered a partially severed hand and was taken to a nearby hospital for emergency surgery.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/437681-suspect-wearing-maga-hat-who-allegedly-attacked-man-with-sword

 

Leadership matters. I don't recall any of Obama's supporters threatening to or attempting to murder Republicans during Obama's 2 terms. Trump mostly stays silence about the violence among his base and when he does speak out it is only to deny any responsibly.  

 

 

[zapatos]

1 hour ago, Ten oz said:

I don't recall any of Obama's supporters threatening to or attempting to murder Republicans during Obama's 2 terms.

Unfortunately it did happen.

Quote

A man accused of threatening to kill House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (R-Va.) appears to have twice donated money to Barack Obama’s presidential campaign, the Center for Responsive Politics‘ research indicates.

 

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/03/norman-leboon-accused-of-threating/

[Ten oz]

48 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Unfortunately it did happen.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/03/norman-leboon-accused-of-threating/

It is not actually the same. In both the stories I linked the perpetrators were advocating Trump specifically. The one wearing a MAGA hat (which appears to have led to the altercation) and the other telling authorities he loves Trump. 

Quote

 

 He was questioned March 29 by FBI agents at his residence in Steuben County, according to the criminal complaint.

Carlineo told the agents he is a patriot, that he loves President Donald Trump and hates radical Muslims in government, the complaint stated.

"If our forefathers were still alive, they'd put a bullet in her head," he told the agents, according to federal court documents. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/05/ilhan-omar-death-threat-leads-to-arrest-of-new-york-man/3379387002/

 

Your link is about a youtuber who threatened Cantor. The youtuber made no references to Obama in his threats, in his videos, or to authorities. The only connect is that the youtuber happens to have donated money to Obama's campaign years previous to the threat. There is degrees of separation in the story you linked which make it different than the stories I linked. 

Below is the threat made against Cantor. I cannot decipher any left leaning political position contain in it whatsoever.  

Quote

 

"My Congressman Eric Cantor, and you and your cupcake evil wife...” “Remember Eric...our judgment time, the final Yom Kippur has been given. You are a liar, you're a Lucifer, you're a pig, a greedy fucking pig, you're an abomination, you receive my bullets in your office, remember they will be placed in your heads. You and your children are Lucifer's abominations.”

http://media.philly.com/documents/100329_in_AffidavitLeboon.pdf

 

 

[zapatos]

5 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

It is not actually the same. In both the stories I linked the perpetrators were advocating Trump specifically. The one wearing a MAGA hat (which appears to have led to the altercation) and the other telling authorities he loves Trump. 

Your link is about a youtuber who threatened Cantor. The youtuber made no references to Obama in his threats, in his videos, or to authorities. The only connect is that the youtuber happens to have donated money to Obama's campaign years previous to the threat. There is degrees of separation in the story you linked which make it different than the stories I linked. 

Below is the threat made against Cantor. I cannot decipher any left leaning political position contain in it whatsoever.  

 

[Ten oz]

20 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Explain how this isn't an obvious false equivalency?

One guy literally told authorities at the time of his arrest that he loved Trump and hates Muslims. It is obvious Trump was on his mind and a present motivating factor. 

The guy you linked spouted religious gibberish. There was no mention of Obama or any Democrat. There is no indication in the link you provided or the FBI affidavit as to what the guys motivations were.

We could both link countless stories of people who have done bad things in this world who have also registered Democrat or Republican at some point in their lives. Correlation is not equal to causation.  

Edited April 6, 2019 by Ten oz

[zapatos]

5 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I don't recall any of Obama's supporters threatening to or attempting to murder Republicans during Obama's 2 terms.

 

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

A man accused of threatening to kill House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (R-Va.) appears to have twice donated money to Barack Obama’s presidential campaign, the Center for Responsive Politics‘ research indicates.

 

 

5 hours ago, Ten oz said:

I don't recall any of Obama's supporters threatening to or attempting to murder Republicans during Obama's 2 terms.

 

3 hours ago, zapatos said:

A man accused of threatening to kill House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (R-Va.) appears to have twice donated money to Barack Obama’s presidential campaign, the Center for Responsive Politics‘ research indicates.

 

You said you didn't recall an incident. I gave you one. Simple as that.

You should always concede what is obvious to all, otherwise people begin to question your motives.

 

[Ten oz]

12 hours ago, zapatos said:

 

You said you didn't recall an incident. I gave you one. Simple as that.

You should always concede what is obvious to all, otherwise people begin to question your motives.

 

Being a supporter is a real time action, present tense. The stories I linked were of people who in real time showed support for Trump while committing crimes. You linked a guy who had previously supported Obama and then years later committed a crime. Where is the evidence that there was any connection between his past support of Obama and the crime? Did the guy even still support Obama at the time of the crime?

You are making a false equivalency. 

[J.C.MacSwell]

31 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Being a supporter is a real time action, present tense. The stories I linked were of people who in real time showed support for Trump while committing crimes. You linked a guy who had previously supported Obama and then years later committed a crime. Where is the evidence that there was any connection between his past support of Obama and the crime? Did the guy even still support Obama at the time of the crime?

You are making a false equivalency. 

Where did he claim an equivalency? 

[iNow]

2 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Where did he claim an equivalency? 

It’s inherent in the response.

Ten Oz requested an equivalent example. Zap responded with his example. How could one possibly argue the intention was anything other than to claim equivalency?

Seems to be a bad faith question on your part, and to be clear... I’ve taken no side on whether or not I agree with either poster.